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Abraham Romanovich

Barnsley Fans View on LJ and our Club

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8 hours ago, STeveOELlis said:

We did not replace Webster with Kalas.

We're yet to replace Webster. Taylor Moore has stepped up, but he's not the player Webster was. Webster was the catalyst for almost all of our attacks last season and it'll be impossible to replace that, but Kalas certainly did not replace Webster

Glad you pointed that out and I sometimes wonder if these fans actually watch us.... just like people thinking there's a happy camp in that dressing room and we're actually going to make top 6.

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2 hours ago, miketh2nd said:

Flint was Sod and Tammy was LJ , freeman little and korey were cotteril i dont recall getting much profit from cotterils signings other than kodja? 

Tammy loan so irrelevant 

kodja 11million was it?

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19 minutes ago, RedDave said:

What I meant is don’t judge city on how much they hate spent versus others in this league, judge them on nett spend v nett spend. It gives a much truer picture 

Ok lets do that, so this summer?

According to transfermarkt in the summer we made £8.61m on transfers, certainly not too shabby.

However teams above us:

WBA made £11.6m

Leeds made £29.96m(!)

Brentford made £10.85m

Fulham made £25.65m(!)

Swansea made £34.5m(!!)...

so all those teams in your "net spend" league table should be massively struggling compared to us, having had to sell all their quality right?

Wigan however, spent £7.13m, so according to you they should be flying high!

When does your "net spend" table start and stop? Do we take into account wages etc? It just doesn't make sense, and isn't a good metric. You just like to use it as justification for Lee spending a hell of a lot of money.

Edited by IAmNick
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3 minutes ago, IAmNick said:

Ok lets do that, so this summer?

According to transfermarkt in the summer we made £8.61m on transfers, certainly not too shabby.

However teams above us:

WBA made £11.6m

Leeds made £29.96m(!)

Brentford made £10.85m

Fulham made £25.65m(!)

Swansea made £34.5m(!!)...

so all those teams in your "net spend" league table should be massively struggling compared to us, having had to sell all their quality right?

Wigan however, spent £7.13m, so according to you they should be flying high!

When does your "net spend" table start and stop? Do we take into account wages etc? It just doesn't make sense, and isn't a good metric. You just like to use it as justification for Lee spending a hell of a lot of money.

Can’t judge it on one season. Fulham spent £100m 18 months ago! 

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2 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Can’t judge it on one season. Fulham spent £100m 18 months ago! 

Well exactly, which is why net spend it isn't a great metric because the further you extend it over time the less meaning it then has, as the values aren't representative!

Fulham also loaned in £40m of talent this summer even though they "spent" £0m according to their transfer balance sheet - wages another matter however!

Edited by IAmNick

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1 hour ago, JBFC II said:

You should also take into account players LJ has brought in who would be sold off for a greater sum if they went tomorrow. 

You could use that argument for Moore, Brownhill, Diedhiou, Eliasson, O'Dowda, even DaSilva and Bentley. 

Add into that Webster's fee and Kelly's as well, both of whom were players brought in for relatively little (or from the academy in Kelly's case) and went for much, much more. 

LJ should take some credit for those transfers because he developed the players into premier league talents

What values do you put against each of those 7 players ? 

Also deduct their cost in wages for the time they have been here. 

I'm not sure we'd be in credit on all of them

Edited by Natchfever

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8 hours ago, RedDave said:

There will often be sackings in football where fans of other clubs will wonder what the hell the club is doing. Whether you think Lee should go or not, if we did sack him the media and fans of other clubs will be amazed!  
 

Probably but it makes no difference.  We've not outdone ourselves like Charlton being 7th in the Premiership.  We're in the pack of a mediocre Championship with a very good set of players not playing well.  People were horrified when Southampton sacked Atkins and gave the job to some Argentinian and that worked..  Atkins had taken Southampton where he could and they wanted someone to manage talented players at a higher level... to keep improving. 

The lack of evident ambition is what gets me.  Not the need to be solvent but the notion that bobbing along is what we should be happy with. It's entirely in the mind and not about money.  We don't seem to want to get to the Premiership when the opportunity presents itself.  I'm 48 and have watched some dogshit sides get to the top division since 1980.  Blackburn even won it!  I make it 21 sides smaller than us in terms of core support..

Bradford, Swindon, Bournemouth, Swansea, Notts County, Wigan, Huddersfield, Bolton, Hull, Cardiff, Burnley, Blackburn, Millwall, Oxford, Reading, QPR, Luton, Watford, Barnsley, Wimbledon, Blackpool and finally Oldham.

The infrastructure is in place to get promoted and make a fist of it, we just need to actually want to do it. If you don't get what I'm saying, just compare how Pat Lam talks about his ambitions for Bristol compared to how Johnson talks about his ambitions for City.  

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7 hours ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

 

I’d take off those tinted specs as they seem to have interfered with your understanding

I recommend you read DaveFevs post here and look , and understand a little deeper 

I didn't see the @Davefevs post you've used there Bob, and I'm not sure I really understand it, and certainly not in the context of @ashton_fan comment. 

I get that we paid more for Kalas, and that his wages are higher. That's why he costs the club more than Webster was costing the club each year. But we sold Webster for £15m more than we paid for him ( including the sell on)

Dave says that we were left with £8.6m after we sold Webster and took into account all associated costs, but that £8.6m calculation includes the whole of the Kalas transfer fee. However, the fee then appears again, amortised over the four years of his contract, as part of the ongoing cost of Kalas to the club. Surely that's counting the transfer fee twice? If you amortise the Kalas transfer fee then the surplus at the outset is £15.6m, not £8.6m. And that still leave a healthy surplus even after taking account of Kalas' cost. Have I missed something Dave?

If selling Webster and buying Kalas, selling Kelly and buying Dasilva, selling Flint and buying Webster, isn't profitable (which is essentially all Ashton is saying) then what's the rationale behind our 'buy players cheap and sell them for more' model?

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3 hours ago, Bobby Bollax said:

50 players signed.

any idea how many players  have left the club?

a genuine question, I’m not being sarcastic 👍

post 63 on that page, give it a count. 👍🏻

 

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5 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I didn't see the @Davefevs post you've used there Bob, and I'm not sure I really understand it, and certainly not in the context of @ashton_fan comment. 

I get that we paid more for Kalas, and that his wages are higher. That's why he costs the club more than Webster was costing the club each year. But we sold Webster for £15m more than we paid for him ( including the sell on)

Dave says that we were left with £8.6m after we sold Webster and took into account all associated costs, but that £8.6m calculation includes the whole of the Kalas transfer fee. However, the fee then appears again, amortised over the four years of his contract, as part of the ongoing cost of Kalas to the club. Surely that's counting the transfer fee twice? If you amortise the Kalas transfer fee then the surplus at the outset is £15.6m, not £8.6m. And that still leave a healthy surplus even after taking account of Kalas' cost. Have I missed something Dave?

If selling Webster and buying Kalas, selling Kelly and buying Dasilva, selling Flint and buying Webster, isn't profitable (which is essentially all Ashton is saying) then what's the rationale behind our 'buy players cheap and sell them for more' model?

ID - you make a very good point.   I think I was arguing / answering the wrong question (doh!), or joining two slightly unconnected things together...and if I did post what you say above, then yes, that is wrong.  You’ve made me think about it in a different way though, so ta....and I guess it backs up net spend is not useful.

I think the photo I included earlier is the best way of looking at it.  It shows that we can’t just spend what we bring in.

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7 minutes ago, italian dave said:

I didn't see the @Davefevs post you've used there Bob, and I'm not sure I really understand it, and certainly not in the context of @ashton_fan comment. 

I get that we paid more for Kalas, and that his wages are higher. That's why he costs the club more than Webster was costing the club each year. But we sold Webster for £15m more than we paid for him ( including the sell on)

Dave says that we were left with £8.6m after we sold Webster and took into account all associated costs, but that £8.6m calculation includes the whole of the Kalas transfer fee. However, the fee then appears again, amortised over the four years of his contract, as part of the ongoing cost of Kalas to the club. Surely that's counting the transfer fee twice? If you amortise the Kalas transfer fee then the surplus at the outset is £15.6m, not £8.6m. And that still leave a healthy surplus even after taking account of Kalas' cost. Have I missed something Dave?

If selling Webster and buying Kalas, selling Kelly and buying Dasilva, selling Flint and buying Webster, isn't profitable (which is essentially all Ashton is saying) then what's the rationale behind our 'buy players cheap and sell them for more' model?

Dave

DaveFevs has a  far better full understanding of the financial picture and flow 

And I’m not going to keep getting involved in some of the debates on here - pointless

But , In my simplistic terms , with the money that we’ve done well to / been fortunate to / worked to ,    accumulate to gain thro some notable player sales , as we gather that in with one hand , Lee’s doing his very best to spend it on a bloated squad ,with his ponchance for clubs in the bag of every type and shape, many of which he never or rarely uses  or ‘trusts’ , and one from which he, currently and for some period, can’t form a cohesive side.

For all his whining Lee has had plenty of funds to replace players that have moved on

Id also pose the question for all his complaining about having to sell his best players , how many was he desperate to keep

He certainly wasn’t a Flint fan , happy to offload Pack, Ayling , Freeman Lloyd for all his promise wasn’t a automatic pick / starter, 

Kodja at the time ,  Webster,, Reid I’d hope  and possibly Bryan 

Virtually every side in this division lose their better players 

In the time LJ has been her , Look how many Brentford for example have lost in recent seasons, they’ve also changed their manager several times , not always at their wish , yet their plan is , and always has been clear and they are thriving  and playing very attractive football

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8 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

Dave

DaveFevs has a  far better full understanding of the financial picture and flow 

And I’m not going to keep getting involved in some of the debates on here - pointless

But , In my simplistic terms , with the money that we’ve done well to / been fortunate to / worked to ,    accumulate to gain thro some notable player sales , as we gather that in with one hand , Lee’s doing his very best to spend it on a bloated squad ,with his ponchance for clubs in the bag of every type and shape, many of which he never or rarely uses  or ‘trusts’ , and one from which he, currently and for some period, can’t form a cohesive side.

For all his whining Lee has had plenty of funds to replace players that have moved on

Id also pose the question for all his complaining about having to sell his best players , how many was he desperate to keep

He certainly wasn’t a Flint fan , happy to offload Pack, Ayling , Freeman Lloyd for all his promise wasn’t a automatic pick / starter, 

Kodja at the time ,  Webster,, Reid I’d hope  and possibly Bryan 

Virtually every side in this division lose their better players 

In the time LJ has been her , Look how many Brentford for example have lost in recent seasons, they’ve also changed their manager several times , not always at their wish , yet their plan is , and always has been clear and they are thriving  and playing very attractive football

Preston are another example. 

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18 hours ago, Monkeh said:

 

any fan base who's spent upward to 25 million in the transfer window has a right to expect a high position in the league

I’m all for a change of management and I do tend to agree that we’re currently underachieving, but you simply can’t make that statement without the full context.

What’s our net spend? How does the spending compare to our rivals?

Most importantly - what is our squad worth? That’s the key statistic. You could spend £25m but if your starting place was £0m, then you don’t have a right to expect to do better than a team who spent nothing but already had a squad worth £50m.

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18 hours ago, RedDave said:

There will often be sackings in football where fans of other clubs will wonder what the hell the club is doing. Whether you think Lee should go or not, if we did sack him the media and fans of other clubs will be amazed!  
 

That doesn’t mean they’d be right and we’d be wrong. The media and fans of other clubs don’t share the same context and close insight as us.

They won’t appreciate the lack of a clearly defined playing style - and failure to address it.

They won’t appreciate the failure to get the best out of the squad.

They won’t appreciate the lack of entertainment, particularly at home, without the results to justify it.

They won’t appreciate the consistent inconsistency in performance level - without any sign of a resolution.

They won’t appreciate the cliche-ridden interviews that leave more questions than answers.

They won’t appreciate the growing sense that the entire club has simply become stale and in need of fresh impetus.

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20 hours ago, Leveller said:

Interestingly, the general consensus is that he is doing a reasonable job and our expectations are too high. That’s probably how the football world sees it overall. Just what we think of other teams’ over critical fans, in fact.

The football world doesn't watch 90 minutes of Ashton Gate footy each fortnight. 

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1 hour ago, CotswoldRed said:

The football world doesn't watch 90 minutes of Ashton Gate footy each fortnight. 

And we don’t watch all the minutes other teams play - mostly highlights. You’ll probably find fans of other inconsistent teams feeling much the same .

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1 hour ago, ChippenhamRed said:

That doesn’t mean they’d be right and we’d be wrong. The media and fans of other clubs don’t share the same context and close insight as us.

They won’t appreciate the lack of a clearly defined playing style - and failure to address it.

They won’t appreciate the failure to get the best out of the squad.

They won’t appreciate the lack of entertainment, particularly at home, without the results to justify it.

They won’t appreciate the consistent inconsistency in performance level - without any sign of a resolution.

They won’t appreciate the cliche-ridden interviews that leave more questions than answers.

They won’t appreciate the growing sense that the entire club has simply become stale and in need of fresh impetus.

I know it doesn’t make it right or wrong. Merely an observation. 

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2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

That doesn’t mean they’d be right and we’d be wrong. The media and fans of other clubs don’t share the same context and close insight as us.

They won’t appreciate the lack of a clearly defined playing style - and failure to address it.

They won’t appreciate the failure to get the best out of the squad.

They won’t appreciate the lack of entertainment, particularly at home, without the results to justify it.

They won’t appreciate the consistent inconsistency in performance level - without any sign of a resolution.

They won’t appreciate the cliche-ridden interviews that leave more questions than answers.

They won’t appreciate the growing sense that the entire club has simply become stale and in need of fresh impetus.

Out of interest, just as a comparison, how would you feel if Alex Neil was sacked at Preston?

They are a similar club to us, bankrolled by a billionaire, but comparatively modest spenders. They are widely admired on OTIB. They are currently one point and one place above us. But they too had a good start and are now on a poor run of form - worse than us in terms of points recently.

Like ours, their fans are quite fickle. Read their forum, and you’ll find it’s very similar to OTIB. It’s not as poisonous re the manager and playing style, but there is a feeling that AN might be sacked. There is also resentment about the owner not spending more. They are not far off the playoffs, but the mood is negative. That’s how fans everywhere get after a run of poor form.

We might feel PNE fans are overreacting. PNE fans - like Barnsley - might feel OTIB is overreacting. But we all seem to expect more of our own club than others do.

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23 hours ago, Leveller said:

our expectations are too high. 

 

23 hours ago, Super said:

They’re one point off the play offs in one of the toughest leagues in the world.

what do they expect, exactly?

We expect, at the very least, just a little bit more than might reasonably be expected. And, also, at the very least, just a little bit more, and a little bit better, than what we are right now. Like the vast majority of football fans. 

And exactly like Lee Johnson, Mark Ashton and Stephen Lansdown. 

 

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On 16/01/2020 at 12:11, Leveller said:

Interestingly, the general consensus is that he is doing a reasonable job and our expectations are too high. That’s probably how the football world sees it overall. Just what we think of other teams’ over critical fans, in fact.

And this, ladies and gentleman, is why we don't tickle the top flight. If we're happy with reasonable then that's what we'll get and are getting. 

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1 hour ago, Leveller said:

Out of interest, just as a comparison, how would you feel if Alex Neil was sacked at Preston?

They are a similar club to us, bankrolled by a billionaire, but comparatively modest spenders. They are widely admired on OTIB. They are currently one point and one place above us. But they too had a good start and are now on a poor run of form - worse than us in terms of points recently.

Like ours, their fans are quite fickle. Read their forum, and you’ll find it’s very similar to OTIB. It’s not as poisonous re the manager and playing style, but there is a feeling that AN might be sacked. There is also resentment about the owner not spending more. They are not far off the playoffs, but the mood is negative. That’s how fans everywhere get after a run of poor form.

We might feel PNE fans are overreacting. PNE fans - like Barnsley - might feel OTIB is overreacting. But we all seem to expect more of our own club than others do.

Without doubt it’s easier to take a more measured, dispassionate view when it’s not your club. That can be a good thing, but it does also mean you might not be in full possession of the facts.

On balance I’d argue that Preston are doing better than us - fractionally ahead in the table, with a substantially smaller budget. On paper that suggests they have less justification to sack their manager. But there is always nuance and context to the argument that outsiders won’t necessarily know about, that makes it harder for us to draw our own conclusions.

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2 hours ago, Leveller said:

Out of interest, just as a comparison, how would you feel if Alex Neil was sacked at Preston?

They are a similar club to us, bankrolled by a billionaire, but comparatively modest spenders. They are widely admired on OTIB. They are currently one point and one place above us. But they too had a good start and are now on a poor run of form - worse than us in terms of points recently.

Like ours, their fans are quite fickle. Read their forum, and you’ll find it’s very similar to OTIB. It’s not as poisonous re the manager and playing style, but there is a feeling that AN might be sacked. There is also resentment about the owner not spending more. They are not far off the playoffs, but the mood is negative. That’s how fans everywhere get after a run of poor form.

We might feel PNE fans are overreacting. PNE fans - like Barnsley - might feel OTIB is overreacting. But we all seem to expect more of our own club than others do.

That is a very good point and worth considering. 

I think to counter it slightly the context is important. 

There's certainly a small group of people who are irrational in their dislike of LJ that's more personal and beyond his abilities as a manager. Those people are largely worth ignoring because it's made up of fools like 'Thatch 35' who had a clear vendetta from the start.

The larger group, who are the vast majority of LJ sceptics, are people who wonder if he's taken us as far as he can, whether he's the right man to push the squad to the next level and whether his teams are good to watch. I genuinely think there's people who'd be more keen and his management if we were 12th in the table but won more home games, lost more away games and played far more attractive football.

I think the context of the views of group 2 is very important, and unless you follow them closely, we wouldn't necessarily know the deeper concerns of Preston fans in depth. It's possible they feel largely the same as group 2, I have no idea. From the outside looking in though you'd assume they'd be happy under Alex Neil; that's probably the same with fans of other clubs looking at us from the outside. 

Edited by Phileas Fogg
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On 16/01/2020 at 12:13, B1ackbird said:

Alot of their fans hate his guts and have very long memories, I mean, Sunderland fans have never forgiven Coventry from all those years ago.. 

That was a total stitch up TBH. 

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On 16/01/2020 at 12:27, BS3_RED said:

"for whom you can flip a coin as to whether his next 10 league games yield two points or 28."

 

The best description of the championship I have ever read. 

Corrected that for you.

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16 hours ago, Port Said Red said:

Corrected that for you.

Not really though is it generally speaking. This year has been a little weird but LJ has done this throughout his career as manager in both League 1 and Championship. 

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