The I still believe in LJ thread!

[Redland]

 I think LJ has had more than a fair Opportunity but 4 1/2 years later we are back where we started.

 

 

[Alessandro]

It’s churlish IMO to not at least acknowledge the massive progress we’ve made under this current set up.
 

But on the other hand, do we want to settle for mediocre? Because for me, that’s what we’ve become. Good runs, bad runs. Mediocre.

That is what SL needs to ask himself.

Of course as a stable championship club now, the gamble of a new manager may well set us back or even reverse that progress, but the increasing sense is that the right new manager is what we need to find the spark for the final push.

Don’t know if this has been said already - but with a quick count, I think LJ has used 21 different players in 2 games. That for me is huge alarm bells.

You’re clutching at straws to find real excuses for that and I’d imagine if this season continues to peter out, the logical progression is to be looking at the management team.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, Alessandro said:

It’s churlish IMO to not at least acknowledge the massive progress we’ve made under this current set up.
 

But on the other hand, do we want to settle for mediocre? Because for me, that’s what we’ve become. Good runs, bad runs. Mediocre.

That is what SL needs to ask himself.

Of course as a stable championship club now, the gamble of a new manager may well set us back or even reverse that progress, but the increasing sense is that the right new manager is what we need to find the spark for the final push.

Don’t know if this has been said already - but with a quick count, I think LJ has used 21 different players in 2 games. That for me is huge alarm bells.

You’re clutching at straws to find real excuses for that and I’d imagine if this season continues to peter out, the logical progression is to be looking at the management team.

Agreed. I think you and I have been in lockstep re: opinions on LJ for the most part during his time here. 

I simply think it's time for a change now, I like the guy and love that he cares about the club - I think we're almost ready for a big assault on getting promotion and personally feel things have gone a bit stale. I feel a new manager with a new approach might be able to get more out of our squad.

I do feel if LJ goes though that Ashton shouldn't get off without any critique. If the manager is failing then he is failing. 

I think LJ has done a good job at making us a very competitive club in this league and I'd love for him to get us up, I just can't see it happening and feel it's time for a change.

[Red Exile]

4 hours ago, swanker said:

Because some are now suggesting Keith Curle as his replacement!

For the record I mentioned him - but was inviting people to imagine him doing a job for us...an experienced Bristolian manager, international player (very briefly!) - but I'm not proposing that we appoint him. Done well for himself though.

 

[City oz]

2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

For the record I mentioned him - but was inviting people to imagine him doing a job for us...an experienced Bristolian manager, international player (very briefly!) - but I'm not proposing that we appoint him. Done well for himself though.

 

What’s that got to do with the original post. 

[Red Exile]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

I agree that a team will always work better than a bunch of individuals - however talented.  The trouble is that you have then sought to hang the blame on Lee Johnson for all the problems that are currently visible in the teams that he selects and puts on the pitch to entertain us.  In reality there are always going to be events beyond his control. How could he have known that his best defender and star goalkeeper would be out of form at a critical time of the season?  How could he know that perfectly capable players would then find it difficult to make simple 10 yard passes in matches?  Williams supposedly showed great leadership before the game and then arguably was largely responsible for two goals being conceded.  As soon as the players cross the white line the manager loses a huge amount of control.  Imagine if we would still have had the Brownhill from last Autumn or Webster in defence - I'm sure that lee would not have wished to sell these players. Maybe he had no choice.  

None of us really know what goes on behind the scene. It is always tempting to sack a manager and to change everything. But destroying things is always easier than building something to replace what has been changed. Look at the anarchists in the US - they have destroyed, burned and looted and people have been killed, but they are unable to put anything in its place because the vision was on pulling down what they did not like before realising that they really have nothing to put in its place.  The ramifications of changing Lee would be that there may have to be changes in all the backroom staff and many of the players might have to be changed in order to fit the vision of the new man.  We might get the best coach available, Sean O'D was meant to be such a man - how did that work out?  Lee is more than just a head coach and his influence stretches beyond just the first team.

I suggest that we simply support Lee and every player to the maximum of our ability because everything would be easier for the whole team if we all remain positive.

One of the benefits of the Lansdown/Ashton/LJ set up system was, as I understood it, that it allowed for the seamless transfer from one Head Coach to the next...if LJ was poached by a bigger club a new man could step in with minimum disruption. I'd expect that the same would apply if he left for any other reason. I'd imagine that Mark Ashton has an idea of which other folk might be interested if the job came up.

I'm not convinced it would be such a big disruption. Changing managers/coaches is part of the regular business of any football club. 

[Red Exile]

6 minutes ago, City oz said:

What’s that got to do with the original post. 

it's a reply to a post within this thread - nothing to do with the OP

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

One of the benefits of the Lansdown/Ashton/LJ set up system was, as I understood it, that it allowed for the seamless transfer from one Head Coach to the next...if LJ was poached by a bigger club a new man could step in with minimum disruption. I'd expect that the same would apply if he left for any other reason. I'd imagine that Mark Ashton has an idea of which other folk might be interested if the job came up.

I'm not convinced it would be such a big disruption. Changing managers/coaches is part of the regular business of any football club. 

You could well be right, but until Messrs Ashton and Lansdown decide that there is a need to recruit, I still suggest that we enthusiastically and positively support the current head coach and players - because they are all we have right now.  I think that our project is a little more involved than may be the case with many other football clubs.

[Red Exile]

7 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You could well be right, but until Messrs Ashton and Lansdown decide that there is a need to recruit, I still suggest that we enthusiastically and positively support the current head coach and players - because they are all we have right now.  I think that our project is a little more involved than may be the case with many other football clubs.

Agreed on all counts - and I'll be enthusiastically watching tomorrow night, hopeful as ever!

You may of course be right about the complexity of our set up...which is precisely what I think is wrong about it! The complexity seems to me to be rooted in personal friendships and family connections, which in most businesses have the capacity to make things more difficult than might otherwise be the case when change is needed or bad news needs to be delivered.

 

EDIT: But that said our playing staff will all be well used to a change of coaches, which I believe is needed.

[ashton_fan]

1 hour ago, Redland said:

 I think LJ has had more than a fair Opportunity but 4 1/2 years later we are back where we started.

 

 

We're not back where we started, on average we're probably about ten places higher than pre-LJ and financially more secure due to the profits from player sales and the new stadium. I remember all those seasons of relegation scraps at this level and we haven't had those recently, we just need to improve another five places to be real promotion contenders.

[Davefevs]

12 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

Is it a surprise that people are hesitant?

I posted that what Afobe had done when wide "wasn't that bad" and explained why and was almost instantly met with an aggressive response.

@Bat Fastard has articulated some very good points, of which I mostly agree with.

You have form

[City oz]

22 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

it's a reply to a post within this thread - nothing to do with the OP

Apologies I was looking at the wrong thread 

[Bat Fastard]

8 minutes ago, Red Exile said:

Agreed on all counts - and I'll be enthusiastically watching tomorrow night, hopeful as ever!

You may of course be right about the complexity of our set up...which is precisely what I think is wrong about it! The complexity seems to me to be rooted in personal friendships and family connections, which in most businesses have the capacity to make things more difficult than might otherwise be the case when change is needed or bad news needs to be delivered.

 

EDIT: But that said our playing staff will all be well used to a change of coaches, which I believe is needed.

I get the impression that discussions for out current project may have started many years ago. The Johnson connection has clearly been key in decision making on matters concerning football development.  Our squad has improved and the standards demanded by our fans have also been ramped up in recent years.  I do not think that we are serious promotion candidates this season and we still need some key influential players.  Trading players post Covid may be very difficult and we will need to see how FFP changes impact upon spending decisions. Steve has already committed to huge expenditure in our infrastructure and this may mean that less is available for buying players.  The long term prize is a structure that generates enough income to keep the whole sporting edifice funded for years to come. As I said before, all we should do is provide positive support and keep buying season tickets and pies!!

[Red Exile]

27 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

I get the impression that discussions for out current project may have started many years ago. The Johnson connection has clearly been key in decision making on matters concerning football development.  Our squad has improved and the standards demanded by our fans have also been ramped up in recent years.  I do not think that we are serious promotion candidates this season and we still need some key influential players.  Trading players post Covid may be very difficult and we will need to see how FFP changes impact upon spending decisions. Steve has already committed to huge expenditure in our infrastructure and this may mean that less is available for buying players.  The long term prize is a structure that generates enough income to keep the whole sporting edifice funded for years to come. As I said before, all we should do is provide positive support and keep buying season tickets and pies!!

I can't disagree with any of that!

[JamesBCFC]

29 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

You have form

I accept that I have done so in the past Dave. But haven't been posting in an aggressive manner lately.

 

[Ska Junkie]

11 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

My post wasn't intended as a dig Ska.

The initial line was meant to be a genuine question, rather that one with any tension behind it.

I respect your opinions as you generally tend to be quite fair and have some valid reasoning, though as you say, we may not necessarily agree.

I didn't take it as a dig fella. No problem at all from me. 

[blockbrowt1]

2 pages? Wow

[downendcity]

I believe in angels

I believe for every drop of rain that falls, a flower grows

I believe I can fly

I believe in a thing called Love.

I believe in miracles 

However, I'm finding it increasingly hard to believe in LJ.  

[Shuffle]

I believe that a couple of seasons ago, LJ gave us one of the best half seasons in my years at the Gate. The performances with Bobby/Pato forced us to play football & we had a real identity as a “pressing team” And were great to watch.

Sadly it’s all been downhill from Wolves defeat & LJ had limited options to choose from that season and there in lies his problem. When given multiple choices, he tinkers or adds to an already bloated squad. The only time in his tenure you could pick the side was that 1/2 season.  You would have thought that he would see the merits of a settled side and set pattern of play but just over complicates it.

Will be grateful For job he’s done but life is about improving and he’s stopped doing that.

[GlastonburyRed]

I believe the sun should never set upon an argument
I believe we place our happiness in other people's hands
I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem
I believe I'm loved when I'm completely by myself alone

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe you can't control or choose your sexuality
I believe that trust is more important than monogamy
I believe that your most attractive features are your heart and soul
I believe that family is worth more than money or gold
I believe the struggle for financial freedom isn't fair
I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe forgiveness is the key to your unhappiness
I believe that wedded bliss negates the need to be undressed
I believe that God does not endorse TV evangelists
I believe in love surviving death into eternity

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

 

But, no, I don't believe in Lee. 

[Bat Fastard]

5 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

I believe the sun should never set upon an argument
I believe we place our happiness in other people's hands
I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem
I believe I'm loved when I'm completely by myself alone

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe you can't control or choose your sexuality
I believe that trust is more important than monogamy
I believe that your most attractive features are your heart and soul
I believe that family is worth more than money or gold
I believe the struggle for financial freedom isn't fair
I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe forgiveness is the key to your unhappiness
I believe that wedded bliss negates the need to be undressed
I believe that God does not endorse TV evangelists
I believe in love surviving death into eternity

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

 

But, no, I don't believe in Lee. 

I was born in Glastonbury and can set your mind at rest......Lee does exist and you can believe in him.  

[Wrongagain]

3 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I agree that a team will always work better than a bunch of individuals - however talented.  The trouble is that you have then sought to hang the blame on Lee Johnson for all the problems that are currently visible in the teams that he selects and puts on the pitch to entertain us.  In reality there are always going to be events beyond his control. How could he have known that his best defender and star goalkeeper would be out of form at a critical time of the season?  How could he know that perfectly capable players would then find it difficult to make simple 10 yard passes in matches?  Williams supposedly showed great leadership before the game and then arguably was largely responsible for two goals being conceded.  As soon as the players cross the white line the manager loses a huge amount of control.  Imagine if we would still have had the Brownhill from last Autumn or Webster in defence - I'm sure that lee would not have wished to sell these players. Maybe he had no choice.  

None of us really know what goes on behind the scene. It is always tempting to sack a manager and to change everything. But destroying things is always easier than building something to replace what has been changed. Look at the anarchists in the US - they have destroyed, burned and looted and people have been killed, but they are unable to put anything in its place because the vision was on pulling down what they did not like before realising that they really have nothing to put in its place.  The ramifications of changing Lee would be that there may have to be changes in all the backroom staff and many of the players might have to be changed in order to fit the vision of the new man.  We might get the best coach available, Sean O'D was meant to be such a man - how did that work out?  Lee is more than just a head coach and his influence stretches beyond just the first team.

I suggest that we simply support Lee and every player to the maximum of our ability because everything would be easier for the whole team if we all remain positive.

I never want my team to lose and even with my rose tinted glasses on you can’t ignore the groan around the gate when the text arrives with LJ’s tombola team  announcement!

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, dave36 said:

I never want my team to lose and even with my rose tinted glasses on you can’t ignore the groan around the gate when the text arrives with LJ’s tombola team  announcement!

In the years that I have followed City, there have been many times when the team selection has seemed strange, but we do not know about form and injuries, knocks and personal problems within the squad or how the backroom team have analysed the opposition.  No manager is perfect but there is nothing wrong with Lee that a few wins wouldn't put right. He has had similar losing runs in the past and when that happens the fans start to call for his head.  When the wins start coming everything dies down until the next time.  Most managerial careers end in a sacking and I have always thought that the people concerned may have improved things given a little more time.  Mind you, I was glad when Pulis went!  Lee may not be Triffic or 'Ard like Pulis, but he is clearly a decent, intelligent and thoughtful manager who can spot and develop playing talent.  I can put up with some of his apparent faults whilst he continues to learn and improve.  The project is long term and it would help if the thinking and staff were long term.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

I get the impression that discussions for out current project may have started many years ago. The Johnson connection has clearly been key in decision making on matters concerning football development.  Our squad has improved and the standards demanded by our fans have also been ramped up in recent years.  I do not think that we are serious promotion candidates this season and we still need some key influential players.  Trading players post Covid may be very difficult and we will need to see how FFP changes impact upon spending decisions. Steve has already committed to huge expenditure in our infrastructure and this may mean that less is available for buying players.  The long term prize is a structure that generates enough income to keep the whole sporting edifice funded for years to come. As I said before, all we should do is provide positive support and keep buying season tickets and pies!!

All we should do is; say and do what we think, not what we are supposed to think.

We will cash in on any player that will give us a few bucks, maybe loan in/buy cheap players for the future, a future that will never come because those players will either be sold or ruined by our manager. So what is the point in building anything if we insist on knocking it down every season and then "going again"

Let Lee develop the kids but he is not a first team manager he just takes us around and back to where we started from and cannot handle exp players

[Wrongagain]

14 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

In the years that I have followed City, there have been many times when the team selection has seemed strange, but we do not know about form and injuries, knocks and personal problems within the squad or how the backroom team have analysed the opposition.  No manager is perfect but there is nothing wrong with Lee that a few wins wouldn't put right. He has had similar losing runs in the past and when that happens the fans start to call for his head.  When the wins start coming everything dies down until the next time.  Most managerial careers end in a sacking and I have always thought that the people concerned may have improved things given a little more time.  Mind you, I was glad when Pulis went!  Lee may not be Triffic or 'Ard like Pulis, but he is clearly a decent, intelligent and thoughtful manager who can spot and develop playing talent.  I can put up with some of his apparent faults whilst he continues to learn and improve.  The project is long term and it would help if the thinking and staff were long term.

The long term got lost after a fairly good first two years and the cup run.

Since then we have seen a total shambles in team selection, substitution and tactics - home form has been total crap in all but a few games since then and don’t start me on the latest cup disgrace!
Body language, attitude and the obsession with the 4th official all demonstrate he is not the man for the job!

[Wrongagain]

50 minutes ago, GlastonburyRed said:

I believe the sun should never set upon an argument
I believe we place our happiness in other people's hands
I believe that junk food tastes so good because it's bad for you
I believe your parents did the best job they knew how to do
I believe that beauty magazines promote low self esteem
I believe I'm loved when I'm completely by myself alone

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe you can't control or choose your sexuality
I believe that trust is more important than monogamy
I believe that your most attractive features are your heart and soul
I believe that family is worth more than money or gold
I believe the struggle for financial freedom isn't fair
I believe the only ones who disagree are millionaires

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

I believe forgiveness is the key to your unhappiness
I believe that wedded bliss negates the need to be undressed
I believe that God does not endorse TV evangelists
I believe in love surviving death into eternity

I believe in Karma what you give is what you get returned
I believe you can't appreciate real love until you've been burned
I believe the grass is no more greener on the other side
I believe you don't know what you've got until you say goodbye

 

But, no, I don't believe in Lee. 

Third belief! You’ve experience the local KFC and run out of toilet paper then!

[Bat Fastard]

3 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

All we should do is; say and do what we think, not what we are supposed to think.

We will cash in on any player that will give us a few bucks, maybe loan in/buy cheap players for the future, a future that will never come because those players will either be sold or ruined by our manager. So what is the point in building anything if we insist on knocking it down every season and then "going again"

Let Lee develop the kids but he is not a first team manager he just takes us around and back to where we started from and cannot handle exp players

There will come a time when the infrastructure is built and paid for and starts to produce income that can be invested back into the sporting clubs. Sustainability is the name of the game.  I would not be surprised if Steve continued to prime the pumps for a year or so after that happens.  That would allow us to better compete in the transfer markets and stand a better chance of both hanging on to our best players and even winning promotion.  If we develop our own players as well, then that is the jackpot.  It is a long term project and we all need to be patient for a while longer. I hope I live to see the promised land, although I have some doubts, I will go on supporting enthusiastically.

[Bat Fastard]

9 minutes ago, dave36 said:

The long term got lost after a fairly good first two years and the cup run.

Since then we have seen a total shambles in team selection, substitution and tactics - home form has been total crap in all but a few games since then and don’t start me on the latest cup disgrace!
Body language, attitude and the obsession with the 4th official all demonstrate he is not the man for the job!

We are wrong if we expect perfection because it will never come. We are light years ahead of when S O'D was here and currently living through unprecedented difficulties. None of this is easy for club, management player or fans so we just have to stick together and all be as positive as possible. We will look back in a few years time and see these times as a mere blip in our progress towards the Premier League.

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

We are wrong if we expect perfection because it will never come. We are light years ahead of when S O'D was here and currently living through unprecedented difficulties. None of this is easy for club, management player or fans so we just have to stick together and all be as positive as possible. We will look back in a few years time and see these times as a mere blip in our progress towards the Premier League.

We were right up Wolves backside at the top of this div not so long ago, what happened? they are challenging for Europe we are still here, even Cardiff/Swansea made the jump up so what exactly is stopping us? i.m.o its our manager nothing else we have the ground and a chairman with a few quid, so why are we always the "nearly" club.

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

We were right up Wolves backside at the top of this div not so long ago, what happened? they are challenging for Europe we are still here, even Cardiff/Swansea made the jump up so what exactly is stopping us? i.m.o its our manager nothing else we have the ground and a chairman with a few quid, so why are we always the "nearly" club.

Frankly we were just not good enough.  The Championship is a hugely difficult league where some clubs have vast parachute payments and squads with Premier Leage experience and others can only pay less than half the wages and have to recruit from lower leagues and players who have failed to make the grade in other leagues.  Lee has developed our own young players, loan players and players we have bought in.  This is not a level playing field and the long term project is to build a self sustaining club by building income streams from the infrastructure.  The plans are well advanced and we have to wait until everything is in place until we can better compete against richer clubs.

[Bristol Oil Services]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

I was born in Glastonbury and can set your mind at rest......Lee does exist and you can believe in him.  

You don't run a shop in the High Street, or the Chalice Well Gardens shop, selling, er, crystals and bits of stone that "heal" and beads that sort yer chakras out and shit? 

[Bat Fastard]

3 minutes ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

You don't run a shop in the High Street, or the Chalice Well Gardens shop, selling, er, crystals and bits of stone that "heal" and beads that sort yer chakras out and shit? 

Sadly not - I am not that spiritual, having not lived in Glastonbury for 67 years.

[Bristol Oil Services]

Just now, Bat Fastard said:

Sadly not - I am not that spiritual, having not lived in Glastonbury for 67 years.

Bugger. Need some joss sticks for watching us v Forest tomorrow ....

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, Moments of Pleasure said:

Bugger. Need some joss sticks for watching us v Forest tomorrow ....

we might need a bit more than bloody joss sticks!!

[AshtonGreat]

21 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Four years of progress - so maybe we could forgive the odd blip in extraordinary times.

Lee is central to a large project to keep building the club towards sustainability. We have a new stadium and will soon have a new training ground and the land adjacent to AG will be developed.

Huge numbers of developing players have been loaned out to play good level football and will increasingly be available for the first team squad. Patience is a virtue with such development.

Lee is a good frontman for City and speaks and behaves well, has developed a good infrastructure of medical and coaching staff - it ain't that broke and doesn't need fixing by exchanging it all for an unknown future that may not deliver all that people wish.

If you look back through the past 50 years or so, we are in a better position now than we have been for more than 80% of the time and there is no reason to believe that things will not continue to improve in the years ahead.

£millions have been raised in player sales and this has allowed further development of the playing squad.  Much of this is down to Lee and his ability to develop value in players. We currently have a good collection of young players who are almost ready to be in the first team. I would not be too disappointed if we played many of thses next season, even if it meant that we were not quite as competitive. Remember when Alan Dicks did the same thing - it worked out OK in the end.

I like Lee Johnson and accept that although he is not perfect, he is decent and honest.  I hope he stays and that he can put the mob back in their box because mob rule is no way to run a football club that is more likely to flourish with quiet improvement and development, aided by continuity.  All the great clubs have been pretty good at this most of the time and the ones that frequently chop and change managers usually come a cropper.  Time to chill and see what next season brings.

And yet arguably the most important thing of all – good-quality football – is sadly missing.

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, AshtonGreat said:

And yet arguably the most important thing of all – good-quality football – is sadly missing.

You mean it is missing now. We have had some good patches during Lee's time and I feel sure that we will have more.  These are very strange times and they will pass.  We will have golden days in the future.  How long?  Who can say, we might not even be able to go to Ashton Gate next year and that will further dent revenues. Clubs with parachute payments will have an even bigger advantage.

[AshtonGreat]

5 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You mean it is missing now. We have had some good patches during Lee's time and I feel sure that we will have more.  These are very strange times and they will pass.  We will have golden days in the future.  How long?  Who can say, we might not even be able to go to Ashton Gate next year and that will further dent revenues. Clubs with parachute payments will have an even bigger advantage.

No disrespect but I don't think Lee can use the strange times surrounding the pandemic as an excuse. It appears to me that he has absolutely no idea how to get the best out of his bloated squad, and hasn't done for well over a year. There appears to be no consistency or shape to his tactics and playing style. He comes across like a manager who's lost the plot. 

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, AshtonGreat said:

No disrespect but I don't think Lee can use the strange times surrounding the pandemic as an excuse. It appears to me that he has absolutely no idea how to get the best out of his bloated squad, and hasn't done for well over a year. There appears to be no consistency or shape to his tactics and playing style. He comes across like a manager who's lost the plot. 

I think he comes across as a manager who lost Webster and thought he had Kalas and then lost both - one to transfer and the other to injury.  He lost shape in the team by player sales and has not yet been able to replace them. He lost Afobe and Smith for great chunks of the season and they are playing their way back.  Things were not easy before Covid. It may take longer to sort things out in the aftermath of the financial effects.

[Wrongagain]

53 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

we might need a bit more than bloody joss sticks!!

I’m only 4 miles away and need to go to proper job - what flavour do you fancy?

[Bat Fastard]

8 minutes ago, dave36 said:

I’m only 4 miles away and need to go to proper job - what flavour do you fancy?

Something to take away the smell of Forest!

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Frankly we were just not good enough.  The Championship is a hugely difficult league where some clubs have vast parachute payments and squads with Premier Leage experience and others can only pay less than half the wages and have to recruit from lower leagues and players who have failed to make the grade in other leagues.  Lee has developed our own young players, loan players and players we have bought in.  This is not a level playing field and the long term project is to build a self sustaining club by building income streams from the infrastructure.  The plans are well advanced and we have to wait until everything is in place until we can better compete against richer clubs.

Sorry but how has Lee developed loan players when the last 2 he brought in for instance Benkovic has only played 5 games and Henrikson only 4 games? Lee has developed our own young players? hows that then? by sending them to other clubs to get match game time, while loaning in worse players? that good management is it?

The Project/5 pillars/sustaining club etc, etc only works if you have a manager that can manage players and not waste millions on bucket loads of players your either are not going to play or play very little.

Maybe when you say wait till everything is in place you mean a decent manager as well?

[Bat Fastard]

2 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

Sorry but how has Lee developed loan players when the last 2 he brought in for instance Benkovic has only played 5 games and Henrikson only 4 games? Lee has developed our own young players? hows that then? by sending them to other clubs to get match game time, while loaning in worse players? that good management is it?

The Project/5 pillars/sustaining club etc, etc only works if you have a manager that can manage players and not waste millions on bucket loads of players your either are not going to play or play very little.

Maybe when you say wait till everything is in place you mean a decent manager as well?

Tammy did OK. Lloyd and the whole raft of young players starring in league 1 teams last year.  A whole new generation are poised to challenge.  Even Brownhill was a young player and thrived under Lee. Credit where it is due please.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

I think he comes across as a manager who lost Webster and thought he had Kalas and then lost both - one to transfer and the other to injury.  He lost shape in the team by player sales and has not yet been able to replace them. He lost Afobe and Smith for great chunks of the season and they are playing their way back.  Things were not easy before Covid. It may take longer to sort things out in the aftermath of the financial effects.

Were we not in fact higher up the league without Kalas/Smith and Afobe, and he did have a chance to replace them anyway he chose 2 loanees who played 4 and 5 games each respectively. Covid effects everyone/all clubs and is not relevant.

Likely to lose Afobe and Smith soon anyway, dont blame them.... Afobe a winger...what a waste...WTF Lee?

[Bat Fastard]

1 minute ago, glos old boy said:

Were we not in fact higher up the league without Kalas/Smith and Afobe, and he did have a chance to replace them anyway he chose 2 loanees who played 4 and 5 games each respectively. Covid effects everyone/all clubs and is not relevant.

Likely to lose Afobe and Smith soon anyway, dont blame them.... Afobe a winger...what a waste...WTF Lee?

I think Lee has had a difficult season with injuries and late departures. That is how I see it from the Dolman - you don't have to agree. I doubt if Lee could do anything that would impress you whatever he did, apart from leave.  Shall we just agree to differ?

[Guest]

3 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Tammy did OK. Lloyd and the whole raft of young players starring in league 1 teams last year.  A whole new generation are poised to challenge.  Even Brownhill was a young player and thrived under Lee. Credit where it is due please.

Yes quite a few City Players now plying their trade in the prem and a few more could join them with Leeds/Fulham or Cardiff even and thats got us where exactly...oh yes mid table championship

[Guest]

1 minute ago, Bat Fastard said:

I think Lee has had a difficult season with injuries and late departures. That is how I see it from the Dolman - you don't have to agree. I doubt if Lee could do anything that would impress you whatever he did, apart from leave.  Shall we just agree to differ?

yes spot on, will buy a ST when hes gone

[Bat Fastard]

Just now, glos old boy said:

yes spot on, will buy a ST when hes gone

That is probably the difference between us. I would always buy my season ticket every year and will do so as long as I can still get to AG. Over the years I have watched them in every division and know that we are currently in reasonable nick even if we don't go up. Sometime in the next few years we will win promotion and I hope to live to see it.

[Guest]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

That is probably the difference between us. I would always buy my season ticket every year and will do so as long as I can still get to AG. Over the years I have watched them in every division and know that we are currently in reasonable nick even if we don't go up. Sometime in the next few years we will win promotion and I hope to live to see it.

Over the years I to have watched my club in every division and been to most away grounds, bought a season ticket for the Dolman for 1st 2 years after it was built and never missed a game back in late 60`s early seventies, when footie was proper. Unfortunately it is now far removed from those days and truly great Saturdays at The Match.

We are now part of something else and have a manager who makes it up as he goes along, I hope you get to see another top div promo celebration on the pitch though it will be a while yet

[Bat Fastard]

9 minutes ago, glos old boy said:

Over the years I to have watched my club in every division and been to most away grounds, bought a season ticket for the Dolman for 1st 2 years after it was built and never missed a game back in late 60`s early seventies, when footie was proper. Unfortunately it is now far removed from those days and truly great Saturdays at The Match.

We are now part of something else and have a manager who makes it up as he goes along, I hope you get to see another top div promo celebration on the pitch though it will be a while yet

It sound like our paths have probably crossed over the years.  I still get the buzz and believe that the glass is half full and not half empty.  However you follow City, I wish you well.

[Wrongagain]

4 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

Something to take away the smell of Forest!

Robin Hoods scrotem

[Cov 77]

6 hours ago, AshtonGreat said:

No disrespect but I don't think Lee can use the strange times surrounding the pandemic as an excuse. It appears to me that he has absolutely no idea how to get the best out of his bloated squad, and hasn't done for well over a year. There appears to be no consistency or shape to his tactics and playing style. He comes across like a manager who's lost the plot. 

Would  agree absolutely, was discussing at the weekend with a couple of other diehards, the football we are playing under LJ is as poor as I can remember , of course we have had worse managers and worse teams but not sure I have such a team with so little idea of what there jobs are  , no shape or style , and just knocking it about sideways at the back and then launch it laimlessly up the pitch , the coach is responsible for all the above and it’s down to him , add to that he blames everyone else but himself , calls out players all the time , you can see the moral and confidence draining out of the players , I know from a couple of ex players that he’s a little bully who if you fall out with you’re toast , we can’t go at the moment but frankly there’s a lot of people who would not go with him in charge , I spoke to a lot of lads who are mad reds but have used the phrase several times that this is making them fall out love with this club which even in the darkest times have not heard , Johnson is the main problem but Steve L is losing all credibility in  that LJ looks unsackable and the nepotism at the Gate is stinking the place out 

[Mr Popodopolous]

5 hours ago, glos old boy said:

Yes quite a few City Players now plying their trade in the prem and a few more could join them with Leeds/Fulham or Cardiff even and thats got us where exactly...oh yes mid table championship

Magnússon though not PL, also plays in a top 7, maybe top 10 European League (Russian).

Played ie from the off in a 3-0 win at the Bernebau in CL- possibly a dead rubber but notable all the same. 

The sales are/were necessary with respect to FFP however. Not all but quite a few. BTW selling is a bit of a fact of life for perennial Championship clubs.

Selling Webster, Pack AND Brownhill in one season feels a bit much. Was willing to accept Webster to reinvest but the latter two- shame.

Think we could have kept one or maybe even both with the signings but would LJ have got the best out of the players even if we had?

Imagine, a Pack-Nagy double pivot, Brownhill more advanced. Massengo young and dynamic prospect who I think we've had to overplay, Rowe bit more experienced and niggly in CM and a retuning Korey. Strong and diverse range of options there. With a successfully loaned Walsh and Morrell to return, yes it could've been good... 

[Yipikiaye]

I don't think getting rid of Lee is the right option right now although some decisions he makes are questionable . I think we have issues within the squad and that's why some of these players appear to be un playable . Also sacking a manager when we're this close to play offs would be suicidal for the club 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Yipikiaye said:

I don't think getting rid of Lee is the right option right now although some decisions he makes are questionable . I think we have issues within the squad and that's why some of these players appear to be un playable . Also sacking a manager when we're this close to play offs would be suicidal for the club 

you mean a possible 2 wins and 11 goals from play offs, if Cardiff dont get any points from their next 2 games and others dont win either. Plus we have to beat both Forest and Cardiff 6-0

Reality says; lose tonight and we could more likely be in the bottom half of the table, so not that close to the play offs; so off you go then Lee and take your helpers with you.

[Bristol Oil Services]

14 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

That is probably the difference between us. I would always buy my season ticket every year and will do so as long as I can still get to AG. Over the years I have watched them in every division and know that we are currently in reasonable nick even if we don't go up. Sometime in the next few years we will win promotion and I hope to live to see it.

That optimism you display here and clearly enjoy, sir, is good for health and longevity, apparently. I wonder how many years yet it will be before we are one of the group of (49) clubs that have managed at least one season of PL football?

[Phileas Fogg]

20 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

I accept that I have done so in the past Dave. But haven't been posting in an aggressive manner lately.

I would class sending me multiple (unanswered!) DMs over the last few days demanding I enter dialogue with you about why I've implied your posts can come across as 'aggressive' as aggressive in itself.

I clearly have no desire to reply to your DMs so please stop sending me them. 

 

[supercidered]

15 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I think Lee has had a difficult season with injuries and late departures. That is how I see it from the Dolman - you don't have to agree. I doubt if Lee could do anything that would impress you whatever he did, apart from leave.  Shall we just agree to differ?

Loads of teams, managers, head coaches have 'injuries & late departures'. That is where one earns their salary and they adapt. They use difficult circumstances to galvanise and build an all in this together attitude. Turn a potential negative in to a positive. City under the current management team do not do this when the going gets tough we tend to implode.

The streaky nature which we have become synonymous with is proof of this.  

[City oz]

9 hours ago, Yipikiaye said:

I don't think getting rid of Lee is the right option right now although some decisions he makes are questionable . I think we have issues within the squad and that's why some of these players appear to be un playable . Also sacking a manager when we're this close to play offs would be suicidal for the club 

If we were a normal club we would not been in such a position debating this. LJ should of gone six months ago.  “Close to play offs” is a joke. We are also close to the relegation play off spots and if we keep loosing the bulk of the remaining games do we celebrate that we didn’t get relegated??

[Bat Fastard]

1 hour ago, Moments of Pleasure said:

That optimism you display here and clearly enjoy, sir, is good for health and longevity, apparently. I wonder how many years yet it will be before we are one of the group of (49) clubs that have managed at least one season of PL football?

The thing is that many people on this forum think that everything is about promotion to the Premier League.  I do not - and I'll tell you why.  In all the years that I have watched City, the games that stick in the memory are those like Mansfield away, when we came back to win an unlikely victory - and that wasn't in any posh league, but it was incredibly entertaining. I can hardly remember the divisions where we played some really exciting games and to me it matters less.  If we won promotion - and it would take a real fluke from where we are, we would have to watch our team getting tonked  week in and week out before escaping back to the Championship and trying again with the benefit of parachute payments.  I suppose there would be enjoyable moments along the way, but I have not got many years left and I like to see us being competitive wherever we play.  Lee has made us that in the Championship and may even take us further as the fabric and team quality build over the years as we unfold the project.

There are many people on here who know a lot about football and see it differently. I am just an old git who has watched very many hundreds of City games and have learned to be patient.  So many clubs gamble everything and sometimes it works but many times it fails and leads to misery for owners and fans alike - who would be a Bolton fan, for example? Oscar Wilde wrote a story about a man who melted down a statue of "the pleasure that abideth forever" and had it recast as a statue of "the pleasure that adbideth for a moment".  We all see it differently and take our enjoyment in accordance with our characters.  Many on here are excitable and I am just an old git and hope to be able to get to matches for a few years yet - whichever division we grace.

[Son of Fred]

18 hours ago, Bat Fastard said:

I think he comes across as a manager who lost Webster

And here's one we prepared earlier..

Taylor Moore....

There will be a moral to this story.

[Bat Fastard]

25 minutes ago, supercidered said:

Loads of teams, managers, head coaches have 'injuries & late departures'. That is where one earns their salary and they adapt. They use difficult circumstances to galvanise and build an all in this together attitude. Turn a potential negative in to a positive. City under the current management team do not do this when the going gets tough we tend to implode.

The streaky nature which we have become synonymous with is proof of this.  

Of course you are right but it is not always possible and teams have sometimes been lucky or unlucky with injuries, form and the like.  If the manager is changed every time he has a bad run, then we may have to endure more uncertainty, cost and disruption.  Personally I have faith in Lee. Some on here do not.  It is a game of opinions.

[Bat Fastard]

4 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

And here's one we prepared earlier..

Taylor Moore....

There will be a moral to this story.

I think Taylor Moore will be a great player - hopefully in a City shirt for many years to come.  Webster was outstanding at the time he moved, hence the price.  If TM was ever worth that much, I think we would cash in sadly.

[View from the Dolman]

Deleted.

[City oz]

23 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

The thing is that many people on this forum think that everything is about promotion to the Premier League.  I do not - and I'll tell you why.  In all the years that I have watched City, the games that stick in the memory are those like Mansfield away, when we came back to win an unlikely victory - and that wasn't in any posh league, but it was incredibly entertaining. I can hardly remember the divisions where we played some really exciting games and to me it matters less.  If we won promotion - and it would take a real fluke from where we are, we would have to watch our team getting tonked  week in and week out before escaping back to the Championship and trying again with the benefit of parachute payments.  I suppose there would be enjoyable moments along the way, but I have not got many years left and I like to see us being competitive wherever we play.  Lee has made us that in the Championship and may even take us further as the fabric and team quality build over the years as we unfold the project.

There are many people on here who know a lot about football and see it differently. I am just an old git who has watched very many hundreds of City games and have learned to be patient.  So many clubs gamble everything and sometimes it works but many times it fails and leads to misery for owners and fans alike - who would be a Bolton fan, for example? Oscar Wilde wrote a story about a man who melted down a statue of "the pleasure that abideth forever" and had it recast as a statue of "the pleasure that adbideth for a moment".  We all see it differently and take our enjoyment in accordance with our characters.  Many on here are excitable and I am just an old git and hope to be able to get to matches for a few years yet - whichever division we grace.

I’m an old git too. I just want the younger ones on OTIB to experience football in the top flight. You and I are lucky so far to see City in the top flight and it was part of growing up to see bringing clubs like Liverpool etc to Ashton gate and also in those days if you had enough money to watch City play away. I remember some classic away ones I went to years ago, Arsenal, West Brom, Coventry, West ham etc and I still can Remember how I got to those stadiums, where I stood. Or which stand I sat in. We are not going to get promoted this season so dont worry about getting tonked week in and week in if we were in the prem. The worry for me is getting tonked week in and week out in the championship of which is more of a worry and actually an embarrassment that we have an owner that seems to be in a fantasy world like the manager he employed.

[Bat Fastard]

4 minutes ago, City oz said:

I’m an old git too. I just want the younger ones on OTIB to experience football in the top flight. You and I are lucky so far to see City in the top flight and it was part of growing up to see bringing clubs like Liverpool etc to Ashton gate and also in those days if you had enough money to watch City play away. I remember some classic away ones I went to years ago, Arsenal, West Brom, Coventry, West ham etc and I still can Remember how I got to those stadiums, where I stood. Or which stand I sat in. We are not going to get promoted this season so dont worry about getting tonked week in and week in if we were in the prem. The worry for me is getting tonked week in and week out in the championship of which is more of a worry and actually an embarrassment that we have an owner that seems to be in a fantasy world like the manager he employed.

I would also enjoy watching City in the Prem but it would only make the parking more difficult and stop more of us old gits getting to the Gate.  I suppose you would watch more on Sky so you would be OK. If it comes I will love it, if it doesn't come soon, OK I can be patient.  The Cheese scoring at Highbury was a wonderful moment, and I still remember being surprised seeing vendors selling peanuts - funny what sticks in the mind! Hopefully we will achieve greater things as the project unfolds. Steve is a hugely intelligent and experienced businessman and will have an eye for talented employees. He clearly believes in Lee and that is just another reason why I would like to see him stay.

[soultrader]

Wouldn't class myself as an LJ supporter.  I was underwhelmed when he was first announced.  But he is our coach so I have supported him since.

Pros:

He knows the club, supporters and board

He clearly seems passionate about the club 

He seems to be able to improve (the value) of certain players

Seems to be able to coach an ever changing team.  GIven the recent players sales.

I do think other managers would have the hump at loosing so many players 

 

Cons:

Has never managed at a higher level

Appears to be tinker with team formation/selection too much

Tactics/subs seems to be off 

Appears to find it hard to manage big/difficult players.  

Does not seem to have an identity or preferred formation.  At least with Cotts he played a formation.  Stuck to it and seemed like the players were trained in their jobs/positions.

Often seems that LJ wants to emulate what the top teams are doing.

Players dont seem to get a constant run in the team (excpet CoD).  Which is odd given the point above an that Liverpool had essentillay same 8-9 players all season.  So maybe thats something to look into LJ?

Wilbraham made mention of a few such failings in the recent OSIB podcast

Seems to have little faith in some young academy talent?

Some questionable signings.  Especially as he has stated numerous times he has final sign off

He does not appear to learn from mistakes

He has never held his hand up and said he was to blame for the result (whether he was or not, some managers protect their team)

The endless Brent speak .. if you like. 

That dodgy coat

 

Other:

We know SL likes LJ and has been less than ruthless at times

SL is clearly trying to get the club/business to run as a top tier business.  This might be a problem in the background

The club seems to be a selling club at the moment.  Hopefully they will turn into a retaining club and allow the manager a chance to build a promotion winning team?

Given the constraints of the club I do worry that LJ is the best the club can attract right now.  Is a top manager going to want to come knowing that there best players will be sold?  And yes there are managers who can handle that setup, but mostly they are at bigger clubs.

I am starting to come around to the idea that if SL is going to stick with LJ.  They should look at someone else to support him.  Whether a director of football ... or a manager on his last hurrah (yes even Colin).   Who could be a mentor or guide for LJs shortcomings

 

 

 

 

[supercidered]

52 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Of course you are right but it is not always possible and teams have sometimes been lucky or unlucky with injuries, form and the like.  If the manager is changed every time he has a bad run, then we may have to endure more uncertainty, cost and disruption.  Personally I have faith in Lee. Some on here do not.  It is a game of opinions.

Yes it is a game of opinions..... and yours is wrong!

Just joshing!

This isn't just a bad run though is it? Several and consistent bad runs over the years. The only certainty is uncertainty and to a degree that is the nature of football. However, City have missed so many opportunities to take advantage of other teams slipping up. Not just this season but in different parts of other seasons. In addition, Transfer Windows squandered and there's the cost and disruption right there.

I really wished Lee would be up to it but he just isn't. There can be no more excuses or incoherent ramblings. We as a club need to move on the club is flogging a dead horse and it just can't continue.

 

[Miah Dennehy]

Well, he seems to cause plenty of in fighting between City fans- so he's good enough for me!

All joking aside, have you not improved on your league position every season under him (I'm not sure if I'm right on that, thought I read it somewhere). If that is the case. maybe you should be careful what you wish for.

[Kibs]

1 hour ago, Bat Fastard said:

The thing is that many people on this forum think that everything is about promotion to the Premier League. 

I disagree with this. I've never seen us in the top flight, not quite old enough. Nearly, but not quite. Would I like to see us there? Of course! Is it all about that? Not a chance. Never has been, never will be. 

I think many would be happy just to see us go out there and look like a team with a game plan, show a bit of ambition on the pitch, play with a bit of freedom, see a bit of consistency in terms of selection, worry less about opposition, play to our own strengths, create some chances and maybe even see us score a few goals. 

I don't think that is asking too much given what LJ has at his disposal. I know he's lost players through injury and sales, but that happens at nearly every single club so I don't buy that argument.

He's had his chance now, in fact, he's had more than one. 

[Bat Fastard]

20 minutes ago, supercidered said:

Yes it is a game of opinions..... and yours is wrong!

Just joshing!

This isn't just a bad run though is it? Several and consistent bad runs over the years. The only certainty is uncertainty and to a degree that is the nature of football. However, City have missed so many opportunities to take advantage of other teams slipping up. Not just this season but in different parts of other seasons. In addition, Transfer Windows squandered and there's the cost and disruption right there.

I really wished Lee would be up to it but he just isn't. There can be no more excuses or incoherent ramblings. We as a club need to move on the club is flogging a dead horse and it just can't continue.

 

Of course it is not ideal and I would prefer to se City win every game.  It is hard to understand why players like Kalas and Bentley seem to be misfiring at this stage of the season. We just cannot know what is going on in the camp and so we tend to get frustrated when things go wrong and we look for clues.  I'm sure that Lee will be able to better sort out his squad at the end of the season and that will be made simpler by us not being involved in play offs.  I don't think we are flogging a dead horse, but it might need to be re-shod and fed some oats. I don't think we need a new saddle yet!