Lrrr Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 31 minutes ago, Robbored said: All top clubs use stats - that’s why the players wear those vests to relay pretty much every stat possible to the stats guys. From cliks covered, sprints and distance. Heart rate, breathing rate. Heat maps, touches and passes made with accuracy levels. The stats guys can see via the stats which players are flagging. I imagine Davefevs would love the job! Each player has an app on their phone and they report in before training on how they slept, how they’re feeling so that the coaches know how things are before they at Failand. All the stat information is gathered throughout a match but the laptop guys are not permitted to pass that info on the the coaches until the game is over. The fourth officials are particularly vigilant on that score. They're gps monitors, potentially a mix of heart rate monitors and would go to the sports science department Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, Lrrr said: They're gps monitors, potentially a mix of heart rate monitors and would go to the sports science department Do things like passes etc have to be coded? Automatically or manually? Or use third party like Wyscout or whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lrrr Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Just now, Davefevs said: Do things like passes etc have to be coded? Automatically or manually? Or use third party like Wyscout or whatever. Likely 3rd party, saves time on them having to do the stuff as it would take a long time. There is some cool tech being developed for football where you can strap something onto your boot and it detects passes made etc so you can know by who, who its passed to and linked to gps you can know where on the pitch as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Isewater Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, Lrrr said: Brentford have a sleeping coach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 22 minutes ago, Major Isewater said: Who analyses the effectiveness of the analysts ? OTIB members and STHs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 38 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said: Is that a joke? Everything over analysed and over scrutinsed by a bulging backroom staff to no obvious good effect it seems to me. Time a few more went by the sounds of it. Absolutely not a joke at all. For example if a player slept poorly and awoke with a sore throat and felt generally under the weather the coaches would know before he arrived at Failand. One there he can be fully assessed by the club doctor. Or.....if he showed up, trained poorly because of feeling unwell......... If City have such an app then Im pretty certain every club does - even the gas...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 34 minutes ago, Lrrr said: They're gps monitors, potentially a mix of heart rate monitors and would go to the sports science department Ummm........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 30 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Do things like passes etc have to be coded? Automatically or manually? Or use third party like Wyscout or whatever. They use a system developed from Prozone but I can’t remember what it’s called........ However it’s the latest state of the art system and the vests are an integral part of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 48 minutes ago, Lrrr said: On the analysis of sleep it can actually help understand the player in a session, if they haven't slept well could be fatigued which if you make them perform a high intensity long session could increase chances of injury, monitoring sleep is now common place in football, Brentford have a sleeping coach. From memory, the Club picked up on Famara not sleeping well when he first joined. Was on the phone to family and friends back home as he was lonely. I think it's great...fans moan about what players get paid, but they are under scrutiny and restrictions all through their playing career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MarcusX Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said: Is that a joke? Everything over analysed and over scrutinsed by a bulging backroom staff to no obvious good effect it seems to me. Time a few more went by the sounds of it. Another weird thing to pick fault at. I expect nearly every top club in the land has similar sorts of reports on their players. Considering sleep for example (or lack of) can be a huge hindrance on recovery and performance, and a sport where every percentage counts, it makes sense to track these types of things. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 2 hours ago, phantom said: Have to admit I have never heard of him before Maybe the club were getting a little too obsessed with stats etc? I think this maybe is a very good point. At Trafalgar, Nelson had quite a complicated battle plan but basically said- " if all else fails just get next to a French ship and keep your guns blazing". Maybe we also need a bit more in ya face and a bit less tippy -tappy toe quadrahedron formation! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 48 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Do things like passes etc have to be coded? Automatically or manually? Or use third party like Wyscout or whatever. It's a mixture depending on the company they use to provide the service I think. Some do it manually still, but a lot are now moving to some automated system with either sensors on player equipment (such as the shoes and "bras" mentioned above), or just using cameras. I think Liverpool use a similar technology that was developed to track missiles(!) to track humans on a pitch with a number of cameras. They can automatically work out things like passes. Others will have people drawing lines on recordings etc. I think. Having a limited known number of entities etc. on the pitch makes it a lot easier. I think the harder question isn't getting those metrics, but ensuring they're useful. Are 50 passes better than 1 defence splitting pass? It's not easy for a machine or algorithm to understand a "nearly" pass that beats 3 defenders but not the 4th and that kind of thing. I think that's where the human element comes in more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 6 minutes ago, IAmNick said: It's a mixture depending on the company they use to provide the service I think. Thanks Nick Some do it manually still, but a lot are now moving to some automated system with either sensors on player equipment (such as the shoes and "bras" mentioned above), or just using cameras. I think Liverpool use a similar technology that was developed to track missiles(!) to track humans on a pitch with a number of cameras. They can automatically work out things like passes. Others will have people drawing lines on recordings etc. yes, I get some of that in my Wyscout subscription. Don’t get juicy data like xy coordinates of passes though....suspect that costs a lot more than I pay!! I think. Having a limited known number of entities etc. on the pitch makes it a lot easier. I think the harder question isn't getting those metrics, but ensuring they're useful. Are 50 passes better than 1 defence splitting pass? It's not easy for a machine or algorithm to understand a "nearly" pass that beats 3 defenders but not the 4th and that kind of thing. I think that's where the human element comes in more. Yes, was challenging someone on twitter who was suggesting we should be looking at 2.Bundesliga Right Back because he made more tackles and interceptions per 90 than Jack Hunt and made more passes and dribbles. It’s a pretty basic way of deciding how good a player is, especially across different leagues. Interestingly Matthew Pennington (Hull City) has the most inceptions per 90 in the champ....and he’s a bombscare of a defender. So, agree, this is where the “football person” describes what he needs on the data input and then sanitises / interprets the results that come out. what data attributes of Knockaert did they compare to Eliasson? And did they calibrate EFL Champ to Sweden? The joy of data and football....they don’t always mix that well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, Davefevs said: Your last sentence screams at me. You need a blend of players that compliment one another for a successful team. Stats don't show whether one player will compliment another. Awareness, sixth sense on movement...stats don't see that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, spudski said: Your last sentence screams at me. You need a blend of players that compliment one another for a successful team. Stats don't show whether one player will compliment another. Awareness, sixth sense on movement...stats don't see that. Not sure I agree with your last sentence. If a player is observing something and making a reaction that another player may not make, surely that can be measured? Maybe the problem is people are focusing on the wrong stats - that was the thought behind Moneyball right? It wasn't that they were the only ones using stats, it was that they were using better/different stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
underhanded Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Finding some of the comments on here ridiculing and questioning the role of analysts in football incredibly outdated...Sport science and performance analysis is now part and parcel of pretty much every professional sport on the planet. Whether it's analysing sleep patterns for footballers, gait analysis in track and field, or cranium impact assessment in rugby, it's this kind of insight that has contributed towards the sports we watch being played at considerably higher (and safer) average level than they were in the past. I heard from a few people Sam was very highly regarded in his field. Let's hope they have plans to replace him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said: Is that a joke? Everything over analysed and over scrutinsed by a bulging backroom staff to no obvious good effect it seems to me. Time a few more went by the sounds of it. One of the ways that the game is developing. Those who don't keep up at first stand still, then slip back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
samo II Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 A bacon sarnie and a slap on the back of the neck being all a robust lad needs to be a winner might sound like a romantic notion, but if we’re serious about advancing as a club, the sort of insight and marginal gains you can obtain and apply from analytics is vital. I’m as big a fan of the kind of the kind of mercurial, mould-breaking player who’s talent can’t be truly measured as the next man, but until we can consistently find/afford these type of geniuses, happy the club see getting the most out of the players we can get is important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 The Eliasson v Knockaert thing, well Eliasson got 3rd highest assists last season and still has room to grow- did this despite quite a bit less gametime than Pereira and Wallace. Would be interesting to see some comparable stats at this level between the two- Eliasson and Knockaert. 2019/20 was perhaps Eliasson's breakout season here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
exAtyeoMax Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said: Is that a joke? Everything over analysed and over scrutinsed by a bulging backroom staff to no obvious good effect it seems to me. Time a few more went by the sounds of it. The data still has to be applied correctly and appropriately… Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
054123 Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 4 hours ago, Davefevs said: No, MA said nobody has left Recruitment/TalentID. Stanton and Coles were Performance Analysts not TalentID. Sean Gilhespy looks after the TalentID Analysts. Coles did opposition analysis I understand. Well there you go then. Crystal! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maxjak Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Matthew Benham the owner of Brentford and Matchbook Trading has probably made Brentford FC the Kings of Analytics. he is referred to as '"Moneyball", a reference to the movie starring Brad Pitt, a true story all about how analytics turned an average baseball team in the USA into serial winners. It is a term which Benham apparently hates. He has made an artform out of analytics however, and a good living too. They have an invaluable team of analysts who have contributed through player recruitment and game analysis to the success of the club. Although these guys have been moved on by City, they will be replaced, as the science of analytics is now a massive part of sport? Maybe they just want to upgrade the departmemt? PS. One comment made by the analytics team at City, was........"As footballers have a very short attention span, we make sure the video clips we show them are short and to the point". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snufflelufagus Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 3 hours ago, Lrrr said: On the analysis of sleep it can actually help understand the player in a session, if they haven't slept well could be fatigued which if you make them perform a high intensity long session could increase chances of injury, monitoring sleep is now common place in football, Brentford have a sleeping coach. Our defence has surely had a sleeping coach for years. Trouble is they were coached how to do it during games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IAmNick Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Davefevs said: Yes, was challenging someone on twitter who was suggesting we should be looking at 2.Bundesliga Right Back because he made more tackles and interceptions per 90 than Jack Hunt and made more passes and dribbles. It’s a pretty basic way of deciding how good a player is, especially across different leagues. Interestingly Matthew Pennington (Hull City) has the most inceptions per 90 in the champ....and he’s a bombscare of a defender. So, agree, this is where the “football person” describes what he needs on the data input and then sanitises / interprets the results that come out. what data attributes of Knockaert did they compare to Eliasson? And did they calibrate EFL Champ to Sweden? The joy of data and football....they don’t always mix that well. Yeah exactly. Perhaps instead of looking at tackles, you could look at small sprints while the opponent have possession within 3 seconds of the ball being played - could that indicate a subtle reposition which meant the tackle never had to be made, or the defender making it so his man never even receives the ball due to his location? That might indicate a much higher quality defender than one who is dawdling but then has to tackle his man because he left him too open. The stats are all there and the indicators and pattern can be found - the skill is in knowing which to look for and rigorous statistical analysis across millions of data points. As you said, Knockaert and Eliasson may have very similar stats - but are they they ones that make Knockaert such a great player, or just byproducts of other more subtly hidden statistics which may in fact differ a lot even though they appear to give a similar outcome? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 41 minutes ago, IAmNick said: Not sure I agree with your last sentence. If a player is observing something and making a reaction that another player may not make, surely that can be measured? Maybe the problem is people are focusing on the wrong stats - that was the thought behind Moneyball right? It wasn't that they were the only ones using stats, it was that they were using better/different stats. Some players have a sixth sense as to how a team mate will move... where they will be, their positioning without even having to look. Some of it can be trained...sometimes people click straight away...other times they never do. Weimann is a perfect example...hardly anyone in our team can pick his runs or movement or read them. Yet Palmer and Afobe hit it off instantly. Those are two examples of where stats don't pick up certain levels. Weimann will tick boxes for stats all over the shop...but try getting anyone to link with him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigTone Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Is there an app available that shows basically the object of the game is to score more goals than the other team or am I over complicating matters ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Judda Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 5 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said: Sam didn't work in recruitment. Can't you let these very upset people call him a liar without correcting them? They need to vent! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Just now, Judda said: Can't you let these very upset people call him a liar without correcting them? They need to vent! Read the rest of the comments before you make a comment yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted August 18, 2020 Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 Good bloke by all accounts I expact we'll miss him, Those complaining are stuck in the past all modern football clubs use this sort of analylitics its vital to the modern game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin phantom Posted August 18, 2020 Admin Report Share Posted August 18, 2020 13 minutes ago, BigTone said: Is there an app available that shows basically the object of the game is to score more goals than the other team or am I over complicating matters ? It's known as Johnson syndrome Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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