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4-Diamond-2 is the correct formation for the available players.


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IMO obviously.       

              Bentley

Hunt Moore Kalas Dasilva/Rowe

            Bakinson

Nagy(Williams)   O'Dowda

           Paterson(Walsh)

   Semenyo(Paterson)  Martin   

   

So what that does is give the full backs good runners as cover, it moves Paterson into a position where he can use his attacking strengths and not be such a liability in our own half.

It stops Bakinson being overwhelmed as there's 2-3 in there helping and allows any of the midfielders to go as you always have cover.

Kalas plays LCB in a 4 for his national side. Moore is now in his more comfortable position.

Gives you movement up front, and the brackets is my ideal team when people are back fit. If you don't like O'Dowda play Nagy instead.

4-Diamond-2 has the problems of the wide areas being exposed, but Paterson and Semenyo can press on the wings, Nagy and O'Dowda can run and cover the fullbacks, so it actually fits our players strengths as you still have Martin up there as the back to goal platform to play off should we win it back.

So rather than keeping a formation and cramming people into it, I want to try and use the players we have to their strengths. Even if it's not long term, even if you don't like the players personally, let's try to put the best team we can out there. This is it for me.

All IMO, of course.

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We clearly need more players in midfield, and the current system of having one holding midfielder plus Paterson and one other (Weimann /CO’D) is being shown up against better opposition. You can’t control things if you are constantly a player short.

Something has to change or we will have streaky Holden just like we had streaky Johnson. 10 games in and another defeat on Tuesday could see us back in mid table.

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18 minutes ago, Prinny said:

IMO obviously.       

              Bentley

Hunt Moore Kalas Dasilva/Rowe

            Bakinson

Nagy(Williams)   O'Dowda

           Paterson(Walsh)

   Semenyo(Paterson)  Martin   

   

I think this is bang on, I wouldn't drop Wells but that being said 4 4 2 seems sensible or personally I'd describe it more as a 4 3 3

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2 hours ago, Prinny said:

IMO obviously.       

              Bentley

Hunt Moore Kalas Dasilva/Rowe

            Bakinson

Nagy(Williams)   O'Dowda

           Paterson(Walsh)

   Semenyo(Paterson)  Martin   

   

So what that does is give the full backs good runners as cover, it moves Paterson into a position where he can use his attacking strengths and not be such a liability in our own half.

It stops Bakinson being overwhelmed as there's 2-3 in there helping and allows any of the midfielders to go as you always have cover.

Kalas plays LCB in a 4 for his national side. Moore is now in his more comfortable position.

Gives you movement up front, and the brackets is my ideal team when people are back fit. If you don't like O'Dowda play Nagy instead.

4-Diamond-2 has the problems of the wide areas being exposed, but Paterson and Semenyo can press on the wings, Nagy and O'Dowda can run and cover the fullbacks, so it actually fits our players strengths as you still have Martin up there as the back to goal platform to play off should we win it back.

So rather than keeping a formation and cramming people into it, I want to try and use the players we have to their strengths. Even if it's not long term, even if you don't like the players personally, let's try to put the best team we can out there. This is it for me.

All IMO, of course.

I get your logic.  If you want to play a back 4...fine.  If you want to play a front 2...fine.  Therefore you’re left with 4 in “midfield”.  If you think those are our best 4 / best combination of 4....then fine.

If you’re bringing Walsh and Williams into the equation then you have more options.  At present they aren’t an option.

Overall our midfield have got to be tougher mentally and physically, just like our defenders too.  If we continue to dangle legs in, not impose ourselves physically, then we will struggle whoever you pick and in what system and combinations.  Norwich took out O’Dowda 3 times to earn yellow cards today.

We seem to have gone backwards in that respect over the last few games.  We have become nice.

I have confidence that if Williams comes in and is fit and ready he will improve our “midfield”.  Walsh I need to see with my eyes first.

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2 hours ago, Prinny said:

IMO obviously.       

              Bentley

Hunt Moore Kalas Dasilva/Rowe

            Bakinson

Nagy(Williams)   O'Dowda

           Paterson(Walsh)

   Semenyo(Paterson)  Martin   

   

So what that does is give the full backs good runners as cover, it moves Paterson into a position where he can use his attacking strengths and not be such a liability in our own half.

It stops Bakinson being overwhelmed as there's 2-3 in there helping and allows any of the midfielders to go as you always have cover.

Kalas plays LCB in a 4 for his national side. Moore is now in his more comfortable position.

Gives you movement up front, and the brackets is my ideal team when people are back fit. If you don't like O'Dowda play Nagy instead.

4-Diamond-2 has the problems of the wide areas being exposed, but Paterson and Semenyo can press on the wings, Nagy and O'Dowda can run and cover the fullbacks, so it actually fits our players strengths as you still have Martin up there as the back to goal platform to play off should we win it back.

So rather than keeping a formation and cramming people into it, I want to try and use the players we have to their strengths. Even if it's not long term, even if you don't like the players personally, let's try to put the best team we can out there. This is it for me.

All IMO, of course.

It seems you have trying to fit Pato/O'Dowda into the team, drop these two players, they don't contribute. I listened to the commentary today and the amount of times that Pato lost the ball or O'Dowda hit the floor looking for free kicks was amazing.

Tighten-up the midfield, by playing solid players, such as Nagy, Bakinson for a few games, this should make us hard to beat.

 

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12 minutes ago, barney999 said:

It seems you have trying to fit Pato/O'Dowda into the team, drop these two players, they don't contribute. I listened to the commentary today and the amount of times that Pato lost the ball or O'Dowda hit the floor looking for free kicks was amazing.

Tighten-up the midfield, by playing solid players, such as Nagy, Bakinson for a few games, this should make us hard to beat.

 

In fairness I thought O’Dowda was our best outfield player overall today....Bentley my City MOTM.  But we are too open against the better teams.  They play through us so easily.  We get away with it against lesser sides, because we impose our game.  It doesn’t take many passes by the opposition to create a free man.  That really worried me today.  I know Norwich are good, but I found that very disappointing.

We did create good chances.  It wasn’t all doom and gloom.

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6 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

In fairness I thought O’Dowda was our best outfield player overall today....Bentley my City MOTM.  But we are too open against the better teams.  They play through us so easily.  We get away with it against lesser sides, because we impose our game.  It doesn’t take many passes by the opposition to create a free man.  That really worried me today.  I know Norwich are good, but I found that very disappointing.

We did create good chances.  It wasn’t all doom and gloom.

We are set up to be attacking but we aren’t great at creating chances and don’t take the ones that we do make. This leaves light when it comes to the midfield contribution defensively, which means that we are more likely to concede.

As we have said time and time again over the last 4-5 years, we need to sort out our midfield then we stand a chance. If you recall our best run of results at this level 3 years ago, it was with a midfield 4 of Pack, Smith, Bryan and Brownhill. All capable midfielders rather than attackers or wingers converted into midfielders. And we had 4 central defenders at the back!

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11 minutes ago, Dr Balls said:

We are set up to be attacking but we aren’t great at creating chances and don’t take the ones that we do make. This leaves light when it comes to the midfield contribution defensively, which means that we are more likely to concede.

As we have said time and time again over the last 4-5 years, we need to sort out our midfield then we stand a chance. If you recall our best run of results at this level 3 years ago, it was with a midfield 4 of Pack, Smith, Bryan and Brownhill. All capable midfielders rather than attackers or wingers converted into midfielders. And we had 4 central defenders at the back!

Totally agree.

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7 minutes ago, barney999 said:

It seems you have trying to fit Pato/O'Dowda into the team, drop these two players, they don't contribute. I listened to the commentary today and the amount of times that Pato lost the ball or O'Dowda hit the floor looking for free kicks was amazing.

Tighten-up the midfield, by playing solid players, such as Nagy, Bakinson for a few games, this should make us hard to beat.

 

So when you say they don't contribute, O'Dowda was probably our best outfield player today and Paterson had the assist. So I disagree.

I don't rate O'Dowda, I'd sell him for a bag of chips, but he's good at certain things which he showed today, and we're very limited at the minute. Pato contributes. You just need to check the stats for that. Is he perfect? no. But 2 goals and two assists already this season. If he carries on the same way and ends at around 10/10 we'd all take that from an "8"

 

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1 minute ago, Prinny said:

So when you say they don't contribute, O'Dowda was probably our best outfield player today and Paterson had the assist. So I disagree.

I don't rate O'Dowda, I'd sell him for a bag of chips, but he's good at certain things which he showed today, and we're very limited at the minute. Pato contributes. You just need to check the stats for that. Is he perfect? no. But 2 goals and two assists already this season. If he carries on the same way and ends at around 10/10 we'd all take that from an "8"

 

I hope O’Dowda hasn’t just had “another Norwich” though.  Sorry @JonDolman....couldn’t resist. 😜😜😜

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I get your logic.  If you want to play a back 4...fine.  If you want to play a front 2...fine.  Therefore you’re left with 4 in “midfield”.  If you think those are our best 4 / best combination of 4....then fine.

It's not really about numbers it's about getting the strongest personnel combo out there and putting them into positions to succeed. Taylor Moore isn't in a position to succeed. Pato and O'Dowda aren't really at these "8"s so let's reduce at least one of their defensive responsibilities. Pato keeps contributing , so let's put him into a position to do that. the single holding player in central midfield isn't so let's get him some more help. One up front is ugly, and none of our current strikers will succeed that way IMO. 

Zak Vyner is probably in his best position and isn't succeeding. I don't have any confidence in any of our players as "wingers" so that system is out. The 4-diamond-2 or 4-3-3 variation puts every player on the field into a position they can actually play ok. So that's the logic behind it, not a preference for any system.

If you’re bringing Walsh and Williams into the equation then you have more options.  At present they aren’t an option. Yeah I say that. Agreed.

Overall our midfield have got to be tougher mentally and physically, just like our defenders too.  If we continue to dangle legs in, not impose ourselves physically, then we will struggle whoever you pick and in what system and combinations.  Norwich took out O’Dowda 3 times to earn yellow cards today.

We seem to have gone backwards in that respect over the last few games.  We have become nice.

We were only ever "nasty" when protecting a lead. then we got all excited over the clever time wasting. There's no crunching tackles. no physicality. Now there were a couple of "clever" fouls earlier in the season to get bookings, but we were nowhere near their runners today and if one of the centre halves did that on the goals it'd be very close to reds. "Last man" "denying clear goal scoring opportunities" etc, whatever the wordage is these days. There were so many of the break situations that if all the midfielders each took it in turns to pick up yellows, we'd have ended up with 8 men.

Listening to the podcast, to paraphrase the anecdote "if you want better defending, put more defensive players on the pitch". Well, we don't have those currently, so I'd do the next best thing, put players who can press and cover ground on the pitch and removing at least one liability.

It also applies to nastiness. "If you want more nastiness..."

You do need to change personnel in order to get change here. When was the last player who developed nastiness? I've never seen it. So I think you're the wrong way around here. You need nasty players, you can't make nice players nasty. We currently have a finesse team that has athletic runners, so at least try to use that athleticism, rather than trying to make them nasty. Which is unrealistic IMO.

I have confidence that if Williams comes in and is fit and ready he will improve our “midfield”.  Walsh I need to see with my eyes first.

We know some of the players aren't good enough already. I need to see Walsh to have any idea if he could be. So we have to see him.

 

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1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

In fairness I thought O’Dowda was our best outfield player overall today....Bentley my City MOTM.  But we are too open against the better teams.  They play through us so easily.  We get away with it against lesser sides, because we impose our game.  It doesn’t take many passes by the opposition to create a free man.  That really worried me today.  I know Norwich are good, but I found that very disappointing.

We did create good chances.  It wasn’t all doom and gloom.

I agree Fevs but I must say the vast majority of good work I've seen from O'Dowda was in the attacking half. The same can be said for Weimann and Paterson during the winning run.

It's probably to be expected, after all these are attack-minded players, not all-rounder like a typical box to box midfielder would be. We can't rewire their brains that quickly.

That's why I would play Semenyo and O'Dowda, or Paterson and Weimann as wide forwards - where they are most comfortable!

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1 hour ago, mozo said:

I agree Fevs but I must say the vast majority of good work I've seen from O'Dowda was in the attacking half. The same can be said for Weimann and Paterson during the winning run.

It's probably to be expected, after all these are attack-minded players, not all-rounder like a typical box to box midfielder would be. We can't rewire their brains that quickly.

That's why I would play Semenyo and O'Dowda, or Paterson and Weimann as wide forwards - where they are most comfortable!

I totally agree with you post.

With the bold bit I don’t necessarily think they need to play wide.  Prinny’s diamond has a narrower look....I just go back to youth team football where we played 433 and the right winger and left winger never got close to the centre forward.  Obviously this is pro level.  I’d rather go one striker and two “inside forwards” / no10s if I felt it was better for the team.  At least your striker has support.  I guess that looks more like a 4321....but I still believe it comes down to getting the right personnel on the pitch.

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Funny today, we were allowed to play a bit, and at times we played some nice stuff and did create a few decent chance. They also pressed well, broke up play well and as @Davefevs made some important fouls that we just can't seem to do. Over the last 2 games we have played well in short spells, and against good teams looked dangerous. We have also shown ourselves to be far to easy to play through. 

There is no easy fix, Holden really does have to have a rethink though as we can't swap players as we don't have alternatives really. One suggestion I saw somewhere was a diamond, I think this could work, though I'd still worry about LCB. A back 4 with Brunt sitting as a shield , 2 MF's and a 10 behind 2 strikers. Along the lines of...

                         Bentley

Hunt...........Kalas........Moore. .......DaSilva
(Vyner)...........................................(Rowe)

                            Brunt
                           (Williams)

     Bakinson .......................Massengo 
    (Nagy)                            (Walsh)
                          Paterson
                       ( ODowda )

           Martin........................Wells
        (Fam)                           (Semenyo

No one in the squad has naturally got that "Gerry Gow" in them, HNM tried to put himself about when he first come back from lockdown, when he'd clearly bulked up a bit and Nagy can tackle a bit. TB has the physique and when fit Williams can definitely put his foot in. Today there was a lot of waiting for things to happen, a lot of "after you Claud". 2 or 3 times I saw a City player very obviously relax thinking that his mate had the ball covered , only to see his mate had thought the same and a Norwich player nicked it. It's far more than a sharp or system change needed, a complete mind set rethink. I'll just say , good luck Dean.

        

             

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