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IGNORED

Walsh and Williams still not fit !


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9 minutes ago, Harry said:

Oh goody. I might get my 3rd kit in the post before we even see these 2 in action. 

By the time you get it, your daughter will be at Uni and you will then enter a long winded, drawn out argument with the club who won't exchange it for the correct size as their deal with Hummel ended 18 years before hand.

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10 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Can you name a few? I'd be interested in reading what they don't like about them.

I can but I won't on here............ The players I have spoken too who don't like these pitches see them as being harder on their joints and prefer watered grass pitches with far more give on them, particularly the older pro's not brought up on 3G pitches as standard.

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28 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

I can but I won't on here............ The players I have spoken too who don't like these pitches see them as being harder on their joints and prefer watered grass pitches with far more give on them, particularly the older pro's not brought up on 3G pitches as standard.

Only there's a difference between 3&4G pitches and Desso pitches, so it's a little irrelevant really....

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32 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

By the time you get it, your daughter will be at Uni and you will then enter a long winded, drawn out argument with the club who won't exchange it for the correct size as their deal with Hummel ended 18 years before hand.

Hummel will have been wound-up 15 years earlier after industry-record fines for making their kits out of covid-infected Danish mink. 
City fans still awaiting their 3rd kit will have had a lucky escape, after 3,500 deaths were linked to the mink infected kits. 

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21 minutes ago, Steve Watts said:

Only there's a difference between 3&4G pitches and Desso pitches, so it's a little irrelevant really....

They do have a synthetic base though? You might be 100% correct but the injuries we pick up do seem to be above the norm. Certainly not the muscle injuries that Klopp is moaning about from over playing.

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

Oh goody. I might get my 3rd kit in the post before we even see these 2 in action. 

There's no "might" about it.  You'll probably get your shirt with the Premier League badge on before we see them. 🤣

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25 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

They do have a synthetic base though? You might be 100% correct but the injuries we pick up do seem to be above the norm. Certainly not the muscle injuries that Klopp is moaning about from over playing.

Desso/Grassmaster don't have a synthetic 'base'. They are natural turf with slim plastic tubes (think long narrow rawlplugs) inserted into the turf at regular (roughly every 2cm) intervals. These help drainage and also encourage root growth. That in turn reinforces the structure of the turf and helps prevent pitches turning into quagmires.

Desso pitches are widely used in England (15 out of 20 premier league clubs use them) and around the world - just take a look at their official website and you'll see almost every big club is listed https://www.grassmastersolutions.com/en/references. Many (including us since 2014) have had this pitch system for years now. For your hypothesis to carry weight we should expect each of these clubs to have had high injury issues that they did not have prior to the installation of their pitch.

I just cannot believe that the Desso/Grassmaster pitch is in any way notably contributing to our current injury list.

3G is a different issue.

Edited by ExiledAjax
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17 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Desso/Grassmaster don't have a synthetic 'base'. They are natural turf with slim plastic tubes (think long narrow rawlplugs) inserted into the turf at regular (roughly every 2cm) intervals. These help drainage and also encourage root growth. That in turn reinforces the structure of the turf and helps prevent pitches turning into quagmires.

Desso pitches are widely used in England (15 out of 20 premier league clubs use them) and around the world - just take a look at their official website and you'll see almost every big club is listed https://www.grassmastersolutions.com/en/references. Many (including us since 2014) have had this pitch system for years now. For your hypothesis to carry weight we should expect each of these clubs to have had high injury issues that they did not have prior to the installation of their pitch.

I just cannot believe that the Desso/Grassmaster pitch is in any way notably contributing to our current injury list.

3G is a different issue.

Fair enough. I wasn’t saying it was a definite cause, just questioning it really.

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49 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Desso/Grassmaster don't have a synthetic 'base'. They are natural turf with slim plastic tubes (think long narrow rawlplugs) inserted into the turf at regular (roughly every 2cm) intervals. These help drainage and also encourage root growth. That in turn reinforces the structure of the turf and helps prevent pitches turning into quagmires.

Desso pitches are widely used in England (15 out of 20 premier league clubs use them) and around the world - just take a look at their official website and you'll see almost every big club is listed https://www.grassmastersolutions.com/en/references. Many (including us since 2014) have had this pitch system for years now. For your hypothesis to carry weight we should expect each of these clubs to have had high injury issues that they did not have prior to the installation of their pitch.

I just cannot believe that the Desso/Grassmaster pitch is in any way notably contributing to our current injury list.

3G is a different issue.

Thanks Exiled Ajax. I've posted the true facts about Desso pitches several times. But there are still plenty who think it has a concrete base and plastic grass!

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11 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Thanks Exiled Ajax. I've posted the true facts about Desso pitches several times. But there are still plenty who think it has a concrete base and plastic grass!

Everyone wants an answer. It's natural to question things that you may not understand. To their credit @Numero Uno has taken the information on board.

Personally I suspect that the club are just as mystified about Williams and Walsh as we all are. I don't buy the cynical views or conspiracy theories as I cannot see where the club benefits from not being as honest as they can be. 

I'm not even certain we are having a higher number of injuries than normal. I've not looked at data for it but it feels like the fact the injuries are concentrated in a couple of positions magnifies them and makes people feel that it's worse than it perhaps is. Through in the random lottery of who might be isolating at anyone time and you've got a strange little mix.

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3 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

Interesting that one of your quotes refers to an old injury carried over from Wigan Athletic. I thought I wasn't dreaming that and have been corrected a couple of times by people saying it was a training ground injury at Failand (which is where the flare up of the initial injury may have happened?). 

That’s my fault.  I was told that he played in the in-house friendly that took place after the Cheltenham friendly.

He signed on 20th Aug, we played Cheltenham the following day at noon, and the Failand friendly was later that afternoon.

The news from the BP that  @Carey 6 quoted contradicts what I was told, which is fine, but this was from 27th Aug.  It’s possible that he did actually do something in the prep for that game.  Not that it matters though.

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7 hours ago, bcfcredandwhite said:

Not a nice thought, but maybe details of their injuries aren't being released in order to protect them when they do finally return(?)

I can imagine some unscrupulous @rseh0le opposition player paying particular attention to a player's ''weak spot' in order to intimidate him and/or send him straight back to the treatment room.

5h!thousery is the norm these days.

 

Of course the club could just tell us WHY they aren’t giving us any information at all about two very long absentees, one of whom was a key signing pre-season.  But they don’t, leading to inevitable speculation.  NOT open and honest.

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29 minutes ago, markcarter said:

Of course the club could just tell us WHY they aren’t giving us any information at all about two very long absentees, one of whom was a key signing pre-season.  But they don’t, leading to inevitable speculation.  NOT open and honest.

There's a 16 minute interview on the OS from today's presser.  I think you'll get your answer there.

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

That’s my fault.  I was told that he played in the in-house friendly that took place after the Cheltenham friendly.

He signed on 20th Aug, we played Cheltenham the following day at noon, and the Failand friendly was later that afternoon.

The news from the BP that  @Carey 6 quoted contradicts what I was told, which is fine, but this was from 27th Aug.  It’s possible that he did actually do something in the prep for that game.  Not that it matters though.

Holden said he picked up his injury on his first day here.

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7 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

There's a 16 minute interview on the OS from today's presser.  I think you'll get your answer there.

 

Yes I’ve listened to it and no, no reason was given as to why supporters have been given no information about two key long term absentees.  Utterly ridiculous.  Not open and honest.

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1 hour ago, markcarter said:

Yes I’ve listened to it and no, no reason was given as to why supporters have been given no information about two key long term absentees.  Utterly ridiculous.  Not open and honest.

He said (paraphrased) that he will try to be open and honest and in fairness he has....it’s just you want so much more. He gave a pretty decent update on both today.  He told us they’d had setbacks, he told us not to expect to see the, back this side of Xmas.  He’s told us stuff about them in the past, but if you expect him to give an update on Williams and Walsh every presser you’re gonna be disappointed.  What exactly do you want?

I get why some clamour for more info, but I think some are too tied to an update and the possible date for a return and can’t get their heads around that being changeable.  Does Holden need to say specifically they’ve had a setback?  Imho no he doesn’t. But because he doesn’t then fans start conspiracy theories - Walsh isn’t being picked because of his contract, Williams was injured before he signed, etc when it’s far easier to accept there might have setback that Dean doesn’t want to keep talking about - there’s plenty of other more important things to discuss, e.g. the players that are fit and playing.

It’s pretty obvious now that Dean isn’t going to go into chapter and verse on injuries.

It’s pretty clear now that he believes contract discussions are the domain of MA and not pre-match pressers.

Either Gregor keeps plugging away on those two topics and keeps getting the same level of response or he can try different questions.

We were spoiled by Lee Johnson, but then again, I thought he told us too much.  I’m happier with Holden’s level of info....but you’ve probably guessed that by our continued posts on the same subject! 😉😉😉

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13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

He said (paraphrased) that he will try to be open and honest and in fairness he has....it’s just you want so much more. He gave a pretty decent update on both today.  He told us they’d had setbacks, he told us not to expect to see the, back this side of Xmas.  He’s told us stuff about them in the past, but if you expect him to give an update on Williams and Walsh every presser you’re gonna be disappointed.  What exactly do you want?

I get why some clamour for more info, but I think some are too tied to an update and the possible date for a return and can’t get their heads around that being changeable.  Does Holden need to say specifically they’ve had a setback?  Imho no he doesn’t. But because he doesn’t then fans start conspiracy theories - Walsh isn’t being picked because of his contract, Williams was injured before he signed, etc when it’s far easier to accept there might have setback that Dean doesn’t want to keep talking about - there’s plenty of other more important things to discuss, e.g. the players that are fit and playing.

It’s pretty obvious now that Dean isn’t going to go into chapter and verse on injuries.

It’s pretty clear now that he believes contract discussions are the domain of MA and not pre-match pressers.

Either Gregor keeps plugging away on those two topics and keeps getting the same level of response or he can try different questions.

We were spoiled by Lee Johnson, but then again, I thought he told us too much.  I’m happier with Holden’s level of info....but you’ve probably guessed that by our continued posts on the same subject! 😉😉😉

It just may be that some have a false sense of entitlement.

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13 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

We were spoiled by Lee Johnson, but then again, I thought he told us too much.  I’m happier with Holden’s level of info....but you’ve probably guessed that by our continued posts on the same subject! 😉😉😉

Both are obviously aware interviews are not only listened to by the clubs fans. Difference being, LJ wanted to impress the wider audience with his knowledge whereas Holden doesn’t want opponents knowing every detail. 
 

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12 hours ago, markcarter said:

Yes I’ve listened to it and no, no reason was given as to why supporters have been given no information about two key long term absentees.  Utterly ridiculous.  Not open and honest.

They could post the Consultants Report on the official website which would be really helpful to most of us.........not to mention open and honest. That aside, what information has the Manager not given you that could be described as a reasonable expectation to impart to the supporters?

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DH on Joe Williams.

*Did not come to the club injured.

*Got injured on his first day.

 *Did a light session and just felt something.

*Picked up a little niggle and he's not recovered in expected timescale. 

Absolutely extraordinary. A fit player 'picked up a little niggle in a light training session' and we're now looking at 4+ months out. :blink:

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10 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He said (paraphrased) that he will try to be open and honest and in fairness he has....it’s just you want so much more. He gave a pretty decent update on both today.  He told us they’d had setbacks, he told us not to expect to see the, back this side of Xmas.  He’s told us stuff about them in the past, but if you expect him to give an update on Williams and Walsh every presser you’re gonna be disappointed.  What exactly do you want?

I get why some clamour for more info, but I think some are too tied to an update and the possible date for a return and can’t get their heads around that being changeable.  Does Holden need to say specifically they’ve had a setback?  Imho no he doesn’t. But because he doesn’t then fans start conspiracy theories - Walsh isn’t being picked because of his contract, Williams was injured before he signed, etc when it’s far easier to accept there might have setback that Dean doesn’t want to keep talking about - there’s plenty of other more important things to discuss, e.g. the players that are fit and playing.

It’s pretty obvious now that Dean isn’t going to go into chapter and verse on injuries.

It’s pretty clear now that he believes contract discussions are the domain of MA and not pre-match pressers.

Either Gregor keeps plugging away on those two topics and keeps getting the same level of response or he can try different questions.

We were spoiled by Lee Johnson, but then again, I thought he told us too much.  I’m happier with Holden’s level of info....but you’ve probably guessed that by our continued posts on the same subject! 😉😉😉

The highlighted bit sums things up in a nutshell. How does knowing every last detail of Liam Walsh's injury help anyone bar the player and the people treating him? I accept it shouldn't be like North Korea down there and as paying season ticket holders/pay on the day fans we are entitled to some appropriate information to be released but the criticism he is getting from one or two smacks of "I didn't want him in the job and I will find any reason to have a pop at him"........

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There can be no sensible argument that wanting as a supporter the information that we have regularly and consistently been given for decades is somehow a strange expectation.  This includes:

1.  When a player was injured.

2.  What the injury is - just the headlines but more than which part of the body is affected.

3. A prognosis for typical recovery length.

4.  Periodic updates as to how well the recovery of long term absentees is going and a rough estimate of the remaining recovery path.

This is basic information which has typically been provided by football clubs to supporters.  It is not in any way strange or unusual.

Why would this information be relevant to supporters?  Reasons include:

1.  Understanding what options the Head Coach has for imminent line-ups.  This is something supporters are massively interested in and forms a high percentage of the content on football forums.

2.Understanding the strength of the squad, to be able to form opinions about where transfers or loans might be needed and when.  This is also something that forms a high percentage of the content on football forums.  For example, opinions would have been different about shifting ‘surplus’ midfielders if we had known that two injuries to midfielders might last at least half a season.

3. Understanding when local Academy players might be given an opportunity.  Such opportunities often arise when there are injuries. This is also something that takes up a high percentage of the content of football forums.

Our club has provided such information for years.  It does not prevent a Head Coach from not releasing specific information in relation to a particular match if he feels it’s significant.  In recent years, the club has gone much further and provided very detailed updates on long term absentees.  These were welcomed by many supporters and it aided our understanding and enjoyment.

The club has recently massively changed its approach but there has been no explanation about why this is.  If the club has decided to be closed about injuries rather than open about them (as it clearly has), it is  entirely reasonable for supporters to want to understand why such a decision has been taken.  Such obvious communication is likely to prevent wild speculation.

Until such an explanation, negative feelings about the change of approach and an inconsistency with the expressed ‘open and honest’ approach by the Head Coach, are likely to persist.

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10 minutes ago, markcarter said:

There can be no sensible argument that wanting as a supporter the information that we have regularly and consistently been given for decades is somehow a strange expectation.

This includes:

1.  When a player was injured.

we were told this, when Williams was ruled out of pre-season games. ✅

2.  What the injury is - just the headlines but more than which part of the body is affected.

we were told it was a thigh injury ✅

3. A prognosis for typical recovery length.

we were told 8-12 weeks ✅

4.  Periodic updates as to how well the recovery of long term absentees is going and a rough estimate of the remaining recovery path.

we were told he was close to getting back on the grass, we saw him in videos doing lunges (or whatever they’re called), we got an update from the player himself. ✅

This is basic information which has typically been provided by football clubs to supporters.  It is not in any way strange or unusual.

and imho the club have ticked all those boxes.  What I think you want is more detailed and regular information or just don’t feel that a simple thigh injury could possibly take this long to recover.  If I told you I kept breaking down with my knee injury virtually every fortnight before I found out I’d done something more serious.  I’d be training fine, then I’d drill a pass and my knee woukd pop.  Back to the drawing board.  I actually made a sub appearance on one occasion, trained in the week thinking I was over it and popped my knee again.  Injuries and setbacks happens.  Does Holden need to report every update?  I think they generally tell us:

  • they’re injured ✅
  • they're rehab’ing well ✅
  • they’re back on the grass ✅
  • they’re back with the group ✅
  • they’re ready to be included ✅

If you take Williams Holden has told he’s been close the step 3.  Unfortunately he’s had a setback.


Why would this information be relevant to supporters?  Reasons include:

1.  Understanding what options the Head Coach has for imminent line-ups.  This is something supporters are massively interested in and forms a high percentage of the content on football forums.

supporters are interested, as are our opponents....so I’d rather Dean keeps it at the current level. You disagree.  Doesn’t stop you debating team selection on a forum, just means you caveat it, or do it based on player x being fit or not.  On match day, we are always given 2/3 minutes rationale for selection.

2.Understanding the strength of the squad, to be able to form opinions about where transfers or loans might be needed and when.  This is also something that forms a high percentage of the content on football forums.  For example, opinions would have been different about shifting ‘surplus’ midfielders if we had known that two injuries to midfielders might last at least half a season.

none of Holden’s approach stops you doing anything on the forum.  As they’re only opinions, it’s fine to not be accurate....unless you state something as FACT 😉

3. Understanding when local Academy players might be given an opportunity.  Such opportunities often arise when there are injuries. This is also something that takes up a high percentage of the content of football forums.

is that not clear already?  Towler and Simpson have been kept with the first team, both have been unused subs.  We’ve now been told about separate first team and academy bubbles.  You could’ve made that assumption a while back....a few of us have posted stuff about that previously.  Some of the people, one in particular, works for City, so you need to look out for their posts on here.

Our club has provided such information for years.  It does not prevent a Head Coach from not releasing specific information in relation to a particular match if he feels it’s significant.  In recent years, the club has gone much further and provided very detailed updates on long term absentees.  These were welcomed by many supporters and it aided our understanding and enjoyment.

Steve Allen’s videos were really good, granted.  They were more of a retrospective look at the physio dept than a regular update of current injuries.

Was LJ over-talking Callum O’Dowda’s injury in 17/18 a good thing?  He went too far, questioning Callum’s attitude etc.  How often did LJ say a player was ready and then he wasn’t available?  How many times did LJ say that a player was injured rather than explain why that player wasn’t in the team?  Works both ways.

The club has recently massively changed its approach but there has been no explanation about why this is.

Dean has explained the change of approach ✅ he sees it as for competitive advantage.  Perhaps the players have suggested the previous manager was too open with stuff (I think he was too).

If the club has decided to be closed about injuries rather than open about them (as it clearly has), it is  entirely reasonable for supporters to want to understand why such a decision has been taken.

The manager changed...he decided the new policy, he explained it.  He has told us he will try to be open, but there are good reasons why he won’t.  You don’t have to accept it, but continually posting the same “I’m not happy with it” isn’t gonna change anything is it 🤷🏻‍♂️

Such obvious communication is likely to prevent wild speculation.

do you think they really care too much about what conspiracy theory someone might come up with on OTIB or twitter....unless it’s legally sensitive.

Until such an explanation, negative feelings about the change of approach and an inconsistency with the expressed ‘open and honest’ approach by the Head Coach, are likely to persist.

Perhaps worth asking yourself if you’d have the same feelings if Walsh and Williams had met their targets for returning to the team?  Is your frustration more that they are still injured...and therefore you think there is some hidden agenda / theory?  I think we get tonnes of info from the club.  On the playing side of the media team I think the content we get is very good.  The club gave us 37 minutes of audio from the pressers, then a video of manager and player, yesterday.  That’s a regular commitment to us fans.  Some of it is also relayed to the press and they are in effect reporting on the club’s behalf.

So this is my sensible argument why (in answering your first line).

 

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20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

Your argument is deeply flawed.  In your response you start by setting out that the club has done all the things I suggested it should do. . . and you finish by saying that you have shown why a supporter shouldn’t reasonably expect these things.  It can’t be both.

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25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

 

I agree with your summary of the Williams injury. I think we’ve had enough information as we need, and it was certainly mentioned early on that it was an expected 12 weeks. 
 

But what about Walsh? There’s a lack of info on him. Unless I’ve missed some articles (likely). When was he injured, what is it, what’s the expected timescale? 

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16 minutes ago, Harry said:

I agree with your summary of the Williams injury. I think we’ve had enough information as we need, and it was certainly mentioned early on that it was an expected 12 weeks. 
 

But what about Walsh? There’s a lack of info on him. Unless I’ve missed some articles (likely). When was he injured, what is it, what’s the expected timescale? 

All we know about Walsh is that it’s a thigh injury. Not much else on it.

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