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Are we in a "false position"?


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I personally think this could be the toughest championship ever. The 3 teams who came down all held onto the majority of their players. Teams such as Brentford, Blackburn, Stoke etc look strong enough to compete. The flip end of the table Sheff Weds are chipping away to moving out relegation zone. You still have to fancy Derby with their squad to get something going to also steer clear of the relegation zone. Throw in lack of attendances makes it extremely tough. 

 

We are in a fantastic position and I fancy us on Saturday. Keep these clean sheets going and beating the teams lower in the league we will be solid come the end of the season. Drawing with teams around us are also good results. 

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3 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

My view is we are probably currently slightly higher in the league than expected & whilst our performances haven’t been exactly free flowing, when you take into account a brutal schedule & large list of absentees, we are doing excellently.

I actually thought for the first time in midweek that we are playing like an away side, even at home & (I promise this isn’t a criticism) a lot like a Warnock side, low possession %, slowing the game down at every opportunity & conserving energy.

Two final obvious points, the strategy surely has to be to look to stay in contention until the likes of Baker & Williams return, (would be good if Kalas was a short term absence, too) we are currently well stocked with strikers so getting senior players back in other positions is crucial.

Lastly, it is a very even league, but the sides who were in The Prem last season (all in the top 4) have a huge advantage & we are doing excellently to keep pace so far. 

Think we will see lots of sides easing back on their pressing game.  Even Barnsley have not gone hectic press in their latest match.

How many noticed that we actually finished both Derby and Watford strongly?  It’s normally City who huff and puff for 75 minutes, run out of steam and get picked off late.

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Interesting thought, and depends on your point of view.

Yes, we could be better off;
          I doubt we have had a game this season with less than 5 first team , or at least first team squad missing. The 5 players missing from the Watford game could be expected to start if all were fit, half a team. That , you would expect, would improve the team. The COVID outbreak hit preparations, I know Watford had problems but our were on top of 6/7 players missing and 3 back from Internationals.

Yes, we should be lower;
          Forest away , a Bentley masterclass, was daylight robbery. Without his amazing display we lose that game. We were dominated by Coventry, and in the first half Vs Huddersfield, nicked those 2. Derby bossed possession and they are bottom of the table.

The thing is we play every team and the ideal time to play them, is when they are in poor form. I don't think that Cardiff, Forest, Wednesday or Derby are going to be in the bottom 6/7 come the end of the season. Also, it's the Championship and as we know anyone can beat anyone on a particular day. We have ground out results and been lucky and unlucky in varying degrees. If every game was like Forest, where Bentley makes 5 or 6 World class saves then I'd probably say yes. The 3 defeats we've had, 2 against fancied teams (Norwich was our worst game of the season) and M'boro , who did a Warnock on us. We are where we are due to results, ours and others, we are doing brilliantly all things considered . Whether we can keep it up or not I don't know, I think the longer it goes without players coming back the harder it will become. I think we are where we deserve to be, Derby deserve to be near the bottom because they've been shit, they probably won't be shit all year (sadly) and they will end the season where they deserve to. We may be higher than expected and others lower that expected, but we are where we deserve to be.

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Just now, Davefevs said:

Think we will see lots of sides easing back on their pressing game.  Even Barnsley have not gone hectic press in their latest match.

How many noticed that we actually finished both Derby and Watford strongly?  It’s normally City who huff and puff for 75 minutes, run out of steam and get picked off late.

Good point & really impressive when you consider that this is effectively being done with 13/14 players.

I thought it looked a deliberate tactic in midweek to conserve energy first half.

We were largely penned in then & we appeared shattered, but found impressive energy levels considering we only made 2 very late changes. Nagy in particular who has had an insane workload & looked dead on his feet first half was suddenly covering loads of ground late into the game.

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That second half against Watford really impressed me. Their team is literally worth 2 or 3 times more than ours and we were very competitive. We deserve to be third, because we are third. 

The 3 teams that got relegated are very strong, as are Swansea but ive seen enough to suggest we should be in with strong chance of the remaining top 6 places. We need a bit of luck on injuries, and need to find some more goals but you have to be satisfied thus far.

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50 minutes ago, Prinny said:

 

zzz

Prinny............:cool2:.........You’ve kinda contradicted yourself in your OP.

You ask ‘are we in a false position’ and then in your last paragraph say that ‘dullards’ will say wait until the end of season..........also saying that’s the best indicator.

Well, of course it is.. the league table doesn’t lie after 46 games so I’ll ask what’s the usefulness of asking the question after just 13 games?    :dunno:

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4 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Good point & really impressive when you consider that this is effectively being done with 13/14 players.

I thought it looked a deliberate tactic in midweek to conserve energy first half.

We were largely penned in then & we appeared shattered, but found impressive energy levels considering we only made 2 very late changes. Nagy in particular who has had an insane workload & looked dead on his feet first half was suddenly covering loads of ground late into the game.

So far we’ve only had Pato of our midfield play pretty much every game. Currently it’s O’dowda and Nagy with him, previously Tyreeq and Weimann. Han has barely played and the 2 W’s haven’t at all. Might explain how Nagy and Callum were still able to up the work rate 2nd half?  

Also, maybe instead of changing individual midfielders every game we might benefit from a fresh block of midfielders for a set period of games. That way they are still relatively fresh but also grow into a tighter unit? I know it doesn’t necessarily work like that in the real world but just an observation.

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2 minutes ago, 1960maaan said:

The thing is we play every team and the ideal time to play them, is when they are in poor form. I don't think that Cardiff, Forest, Wednesday or Derby are going to be in the bottom 6/7 come the end of the season. 

Excellent point, and probably contributes as much to 'being in a false position or not' as dominating games/stats generally.

I don't think worse performances on paper actually mean much anymore. In years gone by Brentford would be further down the table but smashing the xG stats, any data point that teams focus on becomes less important for looking forward because there won't be a natural correlation between high stats and good performances - xG for example is probably as useful as shots on target now, having been countered by teams looking to be more efficient in front of goal (not saying it wasn't the case before but managers are less likely to point to the 15 shots they had if they had employed a shoot on sight approach).

Also, who you play seems to be a lot more important, given Readings poor run after a great start against some weaker/out of form opposition. Lots of people saw that coming and expected the same of us.

You can only beat what's infront of you and to be honest, if 24 wins is enough to get us play-offs, I'd take them being against the bottom 12 with a smattering of draws against the top half. The play-offs are a lottery anyway, expectations are always low and if we're ever going up through the play-offs, the Bristol City way would be to completely sh*thouse them.

FWIW I think we are in a false position. 1) the teams we've played hven't been in good form, 2) The performances in some games have relied on a good defence, there will be some games where we don't snatch the winner in fashion we did, 3) in years gone by 85/86 points has been a sure fire play-off place but I don't think it's good enough for 3rd

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Just now, steveybadger said:

So far we’ve only had Pato of our midfield play pretty much every game. Currently it’s O’dowda and Nagy with him, previously Tyreeq and Weimann. Han has barely played and the 2 W’s haven’t at all. Might explain how Nagy and Callum were still able to up the work rate 2nd half?  

Also, maybe instead of changing individual midfielders every game we might benefit from a fresh block of midfielders for a set period of games. That way they are still relatively fresh but also grow into a tighter unit? I know it doesn’t necessarily work like that in the real world but just an observation.

Even doing it for one game might benefit.  I said this at the start of the season that you could go Bakinson / Weimann / Paterson then Walsh / Williams / O’Dowda.  Ok, those players aren’t available now, but even so you could go:

Nagy / Paterson / O’Dowda then

Brunt / Bakinson / Massengo for a single game to properly rest the first three.

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25 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think we will see lots of sides easing back on their pressing game.  Even Barnsley have not gone hectic press in their latest match.

How many noticed that we actually finished both Derby and Watford strongly?  It’s normally City who huff and puff for 75 minutes, run out of steam and get picked off late.

The perception may be that, but in reality we have scored most of our goals in the last 15 minutes (7) but only conceded twice.

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2 minutes ago, steveybadger said:

So far we’ve only had Pato of our midfield play pretty much every game. Currently it’s O’dowda and Nagy with him, previously Tyreeq and Weimann. Han has barely played and the 2 W’s haven’t at all. Might explain how Nagy and Callum were still able to up the work rate 2nd half?  

Also, maybe instead of changing individual midfielders every game we might benefit from a fresh block of midfielders for a set period of games. That way they are still relatively fresh but also grow into a tighter unit? I know it doesn’t necessarily work like that in the real world but just an observation.

On the surface that is the case but since October 7th Nagy has also played in 7 internationals for Hungary as well. He has started virtually all of them and in the last break, played in every minute (bar 6) of all three.

This doesn’t take into account the travelling to and from, either, though fortunately all 3 were at least played in Hungary.

He looks incredibly fit & was apparently at the top of the pre season tests but we badly need Bakinson back & (maybe in time Williams?) to give him a break.

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5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

He looks incredibly fit & was apparently at the top of the pre season tests but we badly need Bakinson back & (maybe in time Williams?) to give him a break.

The optimist will point out that City are doing pretty well despite having lengthy injured list. Weimann, Walsh, Williams and Bakinson all absent from the engine room and when they’re available again Deano will have a selection headache - made easier I guess by rotating the players as he does with the strikers,

Things certainly seem positive for the upcoming months. 

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5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

That’s what I’m saying.....we’ve changed from previous seasons.

Sorry - misread it, I thought you were alluding to this season as well.

For completeness, last season we did indeed concede loads in the last 15 minutes of games more than any other time (19) probably because we were chasing games so many times as much as anything else (or so it seems from memory). But also scored over half our goals in the last 15 minutes of each half (16 first half and 16 second half). 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, GrahamC said:

I actually thought for the first time in midweek that we are playing like an away side, even at home & (I promise this isn’t a criticism) a lot like a Warnock side, low possession %, slowing the game down at every opportunity & conserving energy.

Funny you should say this because I thought exactly the same & I was going to say similar elsewhere but my comparison was going to be with LJ from last season but I thought that maybe a little unfair considering the injuries & schedule that we are now facing.

It feels like this is more of a necessity this season rather than it felt more like a choice through LJ last season.

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45 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Even doing it for one game might benefit.  I said this at the start of the season that you could go Bakinson / Weimann / Paterson then Walsh / Williams / O’Dowda.  Ok, those players aren’t available now, but even so you could go:

Nagy / Paterson / O’Dowda then

Brunt / Bakinson / Massengo for a single game to properly rest the first three.

Have you been drinking Fevs? Brunt? Come on now, I struggle to trust him to come off the bench for the last 10 minutes let alone start a game.

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3 hours ago, Red7 said:

I'm firmly in the camp that believes there is no such thing as a "false" position. So my answer has to be no.

I'm inclined to agree with you. If we're in a 'false' position then it's possible that some of the other teams we've played are also in a 'false' position. Therefore IMO the concept of a false position is somewhat flawed.

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Are we in a false position or punching above our weight? I suspect so, yes, considering the injuries/illnesses we've had. We've also been battered at times this season (Bournemouth, Cardiff, Huddersfield to name three) and it's open to interpretation whether we've rode our luck or if we've executed a clear plan. 

Regardless of that, we do look more organised under Holden than we did under LJ and we have Williams to come back, who I consider to be type of signing we've craved for years. Assuming he fully recovers from this injury, he will be an asset. The same could be said about Walsh. They should make us better. 

I said before the season that whoever took over would likely get off the good start due to the favourable fixtures and I stand by that now. The standout display (and result) for me so far this season was at Stoke. We got close to that in 45 mins at Bournemouth and in flashes against Watford, but looking at the other performances we look a long way off staying the distance. That's not to say we won't, though! 

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53 minutes ago, Redrascal2 said:

Strange thread. How can we be in a false position. Our performance on the pitch have got us to this position. So how can it be false. If we can sustain the performances then we might be there at the end of the season, if we cannot we won't. I am sure we are all hoping we can. COYR 

The position is the position as that is a true reflection on results and no one can argue with that fact.  Ok we seem to be holding our own either if its luck on the day or not. We still have to play yet some of the expected high flyers in this league and I suspect it will be by mid January a date where we will truly see where we are positioned and I think it will 6th or there a-bouts. There are still holes in the team and DH needs a defined striker. We have the best goalie in this league and if not one if the best goalies in the UK at the moment. Two or three more quality players are required 

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I thought we put in a solid performance and played pretty well against a Watford side who had some good players. I feel quite optimistic at the moment and a win on Saturday will put me in a very positive mood leading up to the new year. Wait until everyone is available and who knows what can happen. A top six would be fantastic especially if the stadium’s are open for the playoffs. 

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3 minutes ago, Simon bristol said:

Dont know if its a false position, but we are organised, motivated, and hard to beat. So despite injuries, we are doing better than i expected!

We are going well and motivated. However if you are happy watching championship football at BS3 for many years I respect this. 

I think we need more, us as city supporters since the day we were born now deserve prem football and DH needs some investment from the multi millionaires that own the club to stop buying trousers with deep pockets.

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2 hours ago, Prinny said:

So this is really interesting. You've taken it as a negative when all it's doing is asking a question. I'm interested in what people think by the term "false position", because we all understand it and there's a lot of personal interpretation of the term or if they even believe in it as some state they don't.

So it's really interesting to me, you've interpreted the term "false position", as a criticism or an attack on the team. Says a lot about your mindset as a supporter to me and how you view other supporters.

For me, MY personal ideas around the phrase or interpretation is, that we're currently third, so do I think we're the third best team in the league? Do I think we'll end up there at the end of the season? Which definitely isn't an attack or a criticism.

OK! My mindset on OTIB generally is one of unfair criticism levelled at the players and the quality of football we display, your false position theory question seemed to me very much in that mould. Considering the amount of games played and injuries sustained I think we can view this seasons effort as superb. However the match day comments are negative in the extreme, and it seems that the nay sayer's are outnumbering the others. You final question about being third ...and do 'we' think we will end up there at the end of the season is the question you need to answer.

So perhaps you might think we will end up 1st or second? I mean why not? after all with a level of support that would be a given, it's not beyond the realms of possible,  but reading the posts matchday an alien might think we were staving off relegation. I do believe reading back you are very much the glass half empty type, happy to be proved wrong though.

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1 hour ago, Robbored said:

Prinny............:cool2:.........You’ve kinda contradicted yourself in your OP.

You're kinda showing that you don't understand the meaning of the word contradiction.

You ask ‘are we in a false position’ and then in your last paragraph say that ‘dullards’ will say wait until the end of season..........also saying that’s the best indicator.

Saying something is the best indicator available isn't opposed to the idea we can speculate as to where we are now and can explore the concept of just how useful the current indicators are.  

Well, of course it is.. the league table doesn’t lie after 46 games so I’ll ask what’s the usefulness of asking the question after just 13 games?    :dunno:

The question is  Are we in a "false position"?

The usefulness in asking that question (to me) is...

a) Seeing opinions on the phrase "false position." Do people think it's a real thing? Do they agree with the premise? What does it mean to them if they do agree with the concept? 

b) Finding out what other supporters think of the team and where we are currently. What I'm also asking is, do you think we're the third best team in the league? Do you think the current league table is a good and true indicator of what you believe to be our current status?

c) Creating discussion around the topics I'm interested in hearing the views of other supporters on. You won't see the usefulness in this if you don't have much interest in other people, and their views.

d) Getting people to think about how they use where we are in the table to justify points they make in discussion. If you think league table is irrelevant at this stage of the season and/or believe in false positions can you use "we're 3rd" argument as a justification in discussion? I feel some people do that (the person I quote in the OP for one) and I'd like to challenge that idea with this thread.

e) Highlighting posts and posters who add nothing to conversations.

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1 hour ago, solihull cider red said:

FWIW I think we are in a false position. 1) the teams we've played hven't been in good form, 2) The performances in some games have relied on a good defence, there will be some games where we don't snatch the winner in fashion we did, 3) in years gone by 85/86 points has been a sure fire play-off place but I don't think it's good enough for 3rd

We have played teams when we haven't been in good form though, that's just football.
M'bro were horrible, but we didn't play well and couldn't break them down.
Bournemouth we only played well for 45 minutes and didn't take chances.
Norwich we were abject. 
You can't say Norwich don't deserve to be up there as the teams they played were in poor form. They've played  Huddersfield, Rotherham, Wycombe, PNE, Brum and they lost to Derby all bottom half as it stands. 


1) we may have been lucky in when we played those teams, they play and beat others when in good form. Tough luck on others, not necessarily undeserved wins/losses.
2) I could just say that's what they're there for. We looked incredibly well drilled restricting Watford to one shot on target, and that from a poor clearance. Also fitness and planning has played a part in us being strong at the end of games. 

The 3rd point, I've no idea where we will end up, position or points wise. We have done brilliantly being where we are under extreme circumstances, the problem is, when we get some/all/any players fit will it kick us on to another level? No one knows that answer, just as likely we go on a poor run when or if we have a full squad.

I've watched City for many, many years, and plenty of times we've seemed to catch a team as they hit a good run. It's one of those things. 
IMO the only way you can be in a false position is if you have played say, 5 or 6 more games than anyone else. Do you deserve to be there? ON points yes, you won the games, but others haven't had chance to pick up those points, so not really a fair table.
We have all played 13 games, we have won 7. During those games we have had luck, good and bad, but we are where we are. 

The best thing is, we are looking at 3rd and wondering, do we deserve this. That means we aren't looking at 23rd  and wondering the same. 😉

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1 hour ago, sludge said:

I'm inclined to agree with you. If we're in a 'false' position then it's possible that some of the other teams we've played are also in a 'false' position. Therefore IMO the concept of a false position is somewhat flawed.

Indeed. Where does it end?
Stripped down to the basics, you get 3 points for winning a game, 1 point for drawing a game, 0 for losing a game.
You may win and not deserve to on the balance of play, you may lose and not deserve to. All immaterial in the record books.

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