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Robins & Bears. Compare & Contrast


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5 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

Exactly.  I have been making this same point for years.

We at City have been completely stuffed by the Bristol Sport setup.

Or you could argue the opposite that the football club and/or Ashton Gate cannot now be sold off to some crooked foreign owner without them taking on the whole Bristol Sport package which I doubt would interest any of the `quick buck` merchants like Chansiri at Wednesday.

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43 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s so bloody obvious yet people are so scared to say it. We have an owner who is accountable to NOBODY, it’s his way or the highway and, as you say, if you don’t like it then you are more than welcome to **** right off any time you like.

Is that what people envisaged when SL completely took over this football club as his personal toy? Does anyone think that the “achievements” on his watch justify the complete transfer of control and ownership to one man who wants to meddle in football decisions yet based on meddle after meddle seems to have literally sweet fa football knowledge?

Weve had the best part of 20 years to judge this guy, it’s not a five minute thing where people are sounding off too early, and personally I’m totally underwhelmed, if that makes me an ungrateful bastard in your eyes there’s no need to reply because I couldn’t care less.

If Steve Lansdown was in a position of accountability for the footballing achievements at Bristol City, he would have been fired years ago. 

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Vincent Tan who  received a lot of piss taking  since taking over  Cardiff has led them to the Prem twice and an FA Cup Final in a much shorter time than SL’s reign.

They might not of been able to sustain it, but at least they had a real go , got there and banked all the money that comes with it.

 

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11 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If Steve Lansdown was in a position of accountability for the footballing achievements at Bristol City, he would have been fired years ago. 

Quite.

Or here’s another compare and contrast. Steve’s best mate over at HL - Mr Hargreaves - gets hacked off with under performance by the once wonder boy of the investment world - Neal Woodford - and says so.

Steve though seems content to put up with continual under performance - in a footballing sense - over at BS3 - and keeps personnel in place longer, seems to refuse to undertake any real root cause analysis and keep his “Woodford” in place.

But hey he and Ashton know what they’re doing. They track stats. They analyse percentages. They can tell us how many injuries we’ve got. Or how many aimless and wayward balls we pump forward week on week.

And in the meantime? The investment continues to grow. Week by week. Month by month. Year by year.

And improvements on the sward? Unlikely.....

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Agree with much of what’s been said here... there’s a clear disparity between the upward trajectory of the Bears compared to City for all the reasons @Kid in the Riotstates.

My view, alongside that so clearly explained by kid and others, is that SL’s attachment to Ashton is based on his ability as a negotiator and businessman. While we keep selling a player or two per year for a huge profit and bob around in the middle of the Championship, SL is happy with Ashton’s work. That keeps us ticking along self sustainably, which is what SL wants. Ashton will only be questioned if we start to drop down the league and/or the conveyer belt of saleable talent dries up so we start losing fortunes again.

The only thing that made me doubt this theory was when, back in the summer, LJ was sacked for finishing mid table. I thought at that point that, just maybe, we are going to have a real go at promotion. Then we appointed Holden...

The only way we’ll get promoted with Ashton here is if we get fortunate and everything goes our way. The strategy of appointing managers who are essentially yes men will just keep us where we are now, or mean that we go backwards and end up struggling. It’s only a relegation that would lead to SL even thinking about moving Ashton on, IMO. 

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4 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Having just come off the back of a top 4 finish last season and winning a European trophy. There is no comparison to be made in what the rugby has achieved in the past few years versus the football. 

Key difference from the football is that SL is a bit more modest and honest with himself; he doesn't know enough about rugby to have so much of a hands-on, day-to-day role, as he still holds at the football. 

Compare the CEOs/recruitment. 

Bears have a former player, a playing legend in fact, in Mark Tainton who heads up recruitment and is a key board member. Also has years of international coaching experience with Ireland. He is ably assisted by one of the best coaches in world rugby Pat Lam and is assistants who have all enjoyed success in the game at european/International level. SL has no direct involvement.

Aside from Holden (still a relative novice), and possibly the two assistants, there is no representation on the football board of anyone with any substantial playing or coaching experience. Final decisions are nearly always made with SLs blessings, and he remains heavily involved in the recruitment process, especially as we saw in the summer, for the manager's position.

That, in a nutshell, is the crux of the problem. 

Post of the year on 2nd January? Quite possibly.

When LJ was sacked I really thought SL had learned something from the approach taken with the rugby club and based on the well documented comments at the time we would really, seriously kick on. 

Hopefully, having reflected on things and seeing the progress of the Bears, this year might see an upward change and us model City in the same way.

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33 minutes ago, BigAl&Toby said:

Quite.

Or here’s another compare and contrast. Steve’s best mate over at HL - Mr Hargreaves - gets hacked off with under performance by the once wonder boy of the investment world - Neal Woodford - and says so.

Steve though seems content to put up with continual under performance - in a footballing sense - over at BS3 - and keeps personnel in place longer, seems to refuse to undertake any real root cause analysis and keep his “Woodford” in place.

But hey he and Ashton know what they’re doing. They track stats. They analyse percentages. They can tell us how many injuries we’ve got. Or how many aimless and wayward balls we pump forward week on week.

And in the meantime? The investment continues to grow. Week by week. Month by month. Year by year.

And improvements on the sward? Unlikely.....

Your forgetting the length of the grass box entries pass completion rates al all very important to the average football fan but sadly the most important fact seems to get overlooked the football on offer is diabolical

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1 hour ago, steveybadger said:

Some points from me as a Gloucester rugby and BCFC fan.

SL is seen as a moneybags by non Bristol fans but all he’s really done is blow everyone else out of the water on marquee signings, which don’t count towards the cap. He has still spent a number of years trying to establish Bristol as a major team and now succeeded, but it is far easier to do it in rugby. 13-14 pro clubs, only Exeter actually making a profit - so if you can afford to hire the best coaches and top players Outside the cap then you will find It makes a difference pretty quickly (as we saw with Ackerman and Mostert / Cipriani et al at Kingsholm before COVID hit).

Compare that to City with dozens of clubs better off than them, no really top level coach would even think about joining them even if they were in the Premier League, FFP prevents SL using his wealth to make a huge difference. Basically a comparison with City is a completely bogus one IMO.

Absolutely.

Yet Brentford, traditionally a far smaller club than us seem to be leaving us in their slipstream. If they can become a proper force at this level we do not have an excuse for what we have produced for the last three years now.

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38 minutes ago, Banjo Island said:

Your forgetting the length of the grass box entries pass completion rates al all very important to the average football fan but sadly the most important fact seems to get overlooked the football on offer is diabolical

The last sentence is my issue. Forget the Premiership. I fully blame the owner for the simple reason he has created the situation where managers are working with their hands tied behind their back and where they have decided to go a certain way to keep their jobs. A way of playing that is, let’s face it, absolute shit.

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2 hours ago, Numero Uno said:

It’s so bloody obvious yet people are so scared to say it. We have an owner who is accountable to NOBODY, it’s his way or the highway and, as you say, if you don’t like it then you are more than welcome to **** right off any time you like.

Is that what people envisaged when SL completely took over this football club as his personal toy? Does anyone think that the “achievements” on his watch justify the complete transfer of control and ownership to one man who wants to meddle in football decisions yet based on meddle after meddle seems to have literally sweet fa football knowledge?

Weve had the best part of 20 years to judge this guy, it’s not a five minute thing where people are sounding off too early, and personally I’m totally underwhelmed, if that makes me an ungrateful bastard in your eyes there’s no need to reply because I couldn’t care less.

Spot on IMO!

BUT remember SL, MA & co can never take away the great memories I have of supporting a community based/supported local football club that literally arose from the ashes after nearly going bankrupt back in the 80s. Everyone supporting/behind the team. Those were the best days to be a Bristol City supporter.

The prawn sandwich brigade nowadays can shove it up there ass as far as I am concerned. “Bristol Sport FC” is fast becoming a club with no identity in my eyes - they will probably change the name next?

The comments ref Bristol Bears make an interesting comparison to the football.

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1 hour ago, Ivorguy said:

We at City have been completely stuffed by the Bristol Sport setup.

Apart from the new ground, the new training facility, the award winning social media, funding losses of circa £20m a year and full refunds to every season ticket holder during the pandemic.... just what have the Chairman and Bristol Sport ever done for us?

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3 hours ago, Robbored said:

MA is CEO of Bristol City and has said that he’s the main man when it comes to the football club 

I’m assuming that he has bugger all to do with the Bears in any way - is there a CEO of the Bears? I really don’t know.

I don't think Pat Lam will be at the Bears if Ashton was anything to do with them. 

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8 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

The last sentence is my issue. Forget the Premiership. 

I totally agree. I would be horrified if City had any aspirations to play in the Premiership.

Have you not seen the SIZE of those egg chasers? 

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3 hours ago, Lordofthebling said:

Putting aside the obvious gulf in experience between Lam and Holden, I think you only need to look at the previous history of the Chief Executive at both clubs, by comparing how Tainton got into his position, compared to Ashton.  Think that has a lot to do with where the focus is.

Would you mind enlightening me / us.  I’ve little knowledge of Tainton, other than he was a player for donkeys years and is related to Trevor in some way.  What was his route to his position?

@BigAl&Toby - you know my views on SL.  I don’t dislike him, I’m grateful in some respects for what he’s invested....but the key word is invested.  It ain’t a freebie.  His biggest error was that interview he did a couple of years back when he basically said “it’s my money, I make the decisions...” which @Kid in the Riot referred to earlier.  He showed his true colours with that statement.

Comparing Bears to Robins is fine, but it has major differences that you can’t get over.

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5 minutes ago, Mad Cyril said:

Apart from the new ground, the new training facility, the award winning social media, funding losses of circa £20m a year and full refunds to every season ticket holder during the pandemic.... just what have the Chairman and Bristol Sport ever done for us?

Such a shame that with all these great facilities we play a brand of football that £ for £ of investment and wages is easily the worst, entertainment wise, in the clubs history.

Social Media awards? Who gives a flying **** about that? Things could have been done differently but we are stuck with the single owner’s club and estate model. I wouldn’t mind except on the pitch, the most important part of football, what do we have to show for it? A third division championship, a nice trip to the Etihad, one failed play off push to the Prem and a couple of Johnstone’s Paint Trophies?

Some clubs have done far more in the last 20 years without selling themselves to one man.

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10 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Such a shame that with all these great facilities we play a brand of football that £ for £ of investment and wages is easily the worst, entertainment wise, in the clubs history.

Social Media awards? Who gives a flying **** about that? Things could have been done differently but we are stuck with the single owner’s club and estate model. I wouldn’t mind except on the pitch, the most important part of football, what do we have to show for it? A third division championship, a nice trip to the Etihad, one failed play off push to the Prem and a couple of Johnstone’s Paint Trophies?

Some clubs have done far more in the last 20 years without selling themselves to one man.

Yeah as Dolman season ticket holder... what’s changed during SL’s time? My seat is the same, watching the same level of football... bouncing from level3 to 2. We’re now not a football club in our own right due to the BS model. If someone wanted to invest/buy us, could they? We’re stuck with this for years.  It’s a safe, secure way to do things but increasingly boring. 
What’s increasing apparent is how the focus of more supporters is on SL. A few have been calling it out for years and roundly criticised.... it’s not quite like that now. 
in fairness to my Dolman experience... the bogs are a bit better.  

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8 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Yeah as Dolman season ticket holder... what’s changed during SL’s time? My seat is the same, watching the same level of football... bouncing from level3 to 2. We’re now not a football club in our own right due to the BS model. If someone wanted to invest/buy us, could they? We’re stuck with this for years.  It’s a safe, secure way to do things but increasingly boring. 
What’s increasing apparent is how the focus of more supporters is on SL. A few have been calling it out for years and roundly criticised.... it’s not quite like that now. 
in fairness to my Dolman experience... the bogs are a bit better.  

People accuse you of being ungrateful but all people are doing is asking a very simple question. Has the relinquishing of the football club and the ground to one person, to the point where the other tenants are now considered the MAJOR tenants of Ashton Gate on the stadium Twitter site, given us value for money or playing achievements we could not otherwise have dreamed of? Is that too ungrateful to ask and question?

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3 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

People accuse you of being ungrateful but all people are doing is asking a very simple question. Has the relinquishing of the football club and the ground to one person, to the point where the other tenants are now considered the MAJOR tenants of Ashton Gate on the stadium Twitter site, given us value for money or playing achievements we could not otherwise have dreamed of? Is that too ungrateful to ask and question?

I think there’s a view that we wouldn’t be where we are today without SL (and his investment)...but there are different ways of getting to the same place and beyond.

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1 minute ago, Davefevs said:

I think there’s a view that we wouldn’t be where we are today without SL (and his investment)...but there are different ways of getting to the same place and beyond.

Infrastructure wise, yes. But, performance wise, exactly where are we today under SL? Does the end justify the means after 20 odd years? Or do we need to give it another twenty years before judging?

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14 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Yeah as Dolman season ticket holder... what’s changed during SL’s time? My seat is the same, watching the same level of football... bouncing from level3 to 2. We’re now not a football club in our own right due to the BS model. If someone wanted to invest/buy us, could they? We’re stuck with this for years.  It’s a safe, secure way to do things but increasingly boring. 
What’s increasing apparent is how the focus of more supporters is on SL. A few have been calling it out for years and roundly criticised.... it’s not quite like that now. 
in fairness to my Dolman experience... the bogs are a bit better.  

The Lansdowns have created a sporting empire. If SL wanted to sell the club, I am sure there are rich people out there waiting to invest. Just look how the Gas are flourishing under rich ownership ! 

Perhaps the Bristol Sport model is, better the devil you know. 

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Some good, fair posts in this thread - FWIW I think SL ran this club 'shooting from the hip' for far too long. He's clearly made numerous 'mistakes' and the memory of those die hard. 

To be fair to him, he's cleaned his act up a lot. There is no denying the board has implemented an organisation and plan that has the right intentions, and on paper, could be successful. The club has come on leaps and bounds in terms on infrastructure and revenue over the last 4/5 years. He deserves credit for that. You can't deny SL and the board have put some tremendous foundations in place, finally.

The problem for me is, he's not got the right people in the right places. The personnel structure needs changing. MA brings some skills to the table that are good to have (transfers out/EFL relations etc), but his record of transfers in needs some serious scrutiny. Head-coach choices are limited because of the set up. The people in the football power positions are not up to scratch, and it will hold us back.

Until SL finally gets the right people, in the right places, IMO we'll continue to tread water and leak cash without making the progress we could.

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3 minutes ago, phil_clevedon said:

For me it's quite straightforward - Bears = big club in a small pond, City = small club in (very) big pond. Bears are the equivalent of Spurs, Man Utd, Chelsea, Man City chasing Exeter who seem to be the equivalent of Liverpool. City are.....well, City! 

Good comparison, except the punishment for breaking rules in a small pond are more severe than in a big pond. 

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10 minutes ago, City1970 said:

The Lansdowns have created a sporting empire. If SL wanted to sell the club, I am sure there are rich people out there waiting to invest. Just look how the Gas are flourishing under rich ownership ! 

Perhaps the Bristol Sport model is, better the devil you know. 

Understand the better the devil you know argument but after 40 years of going nowhere between level 2 and 3... what’s the point? 
what’s sport without an element of gamble, risk taking. When the opportunity has been there... post-Man U, mid-play-off season... we wasted the opportunity by being cautious. 

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11 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

Infrastructure wise, yes. But, performance wise, exactly where are we today under SL? Does the end justify the means after 20 odd years? Or do we need to give it another twenty years before judging?

I was actually stating the same as you.  Just because SL has created a lovely infrastructure you could argue it’s held back the football side.  Could we be in the same, if not better position taking a different approach with less investment.

What if the focus had been on playing side, get to Prem and let Prem money fund the infrastructure.

I know there are no givens, but there is more than one way to achieve success.

9 minutes ago, City1970 said:

The Lansdowns have created a sporting empire. If SL wanted to sell the club, I am sure there are rich people out there waiting to invest. Just look how the Gas are flourishing under rich ownership ! 

Perhaps the Bristol Sport model is, better the devil you know. 

I do think the Bristol Sport model is a bit misunderstood.  I see it more as a branding and a way of achieving operational efficiencies through ticketing, marketing etc.

Plenty of other clubs outsource ticketing, marketing etc, they just do it to 3rd parties, which is all we are doing, just that this 3rd party is owned by SL under Pula Sports.

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I despise the constant Bielsa love in but Pat Lam is basically the Rugby version, but better.

Add the fact that Bristol must be nearly the richest club in world rugby outside of France and therefore able to attract amazing talent. Combined with a huge fanbase and you have the unsurprising result that Bristol Rugby are now a powerhouse.

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It's a tired comparison in some ways @BigAl&Toby

FFP, Parachute Payments are two factors. Whereas in Rugby there is a salary cap!

Money will buy you a lot more in Rugby too. Partly due to said salary cap?

How are managerial, coaching appointments accounted for in Rugby, sackings too- inclusive or exclusive of cap? In football both are included in full!

Doesn't seem a fair comparison without context and regulations also in the OP.

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4 minutes ago, Mendip City said:

Understand the better the devil you know argument but after 40 years of going nowhere between level 2 and 3... what’s the point? 
what’s sport without an element of gamble, risk taking. When the opportunity has been there... post-Man U, mid-play-off season... we wasted the opportunity by being cautious. 

I personally share your view, the devil you know thing was me playing devil's advocate. I want to see some risk and ambition being shown by SL. Appointing DH is not being ambitious but being cautious. 

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