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Disgusted with the players attitude


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7 hours ago, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

I take the point and I know a lot of fans feel the same but I said on another thread that I don’t agree it’s as simple as players turning it off and on. 
 

Firstly, Dean never played that team. Kalas on left, marriapa middle, midfield three that complement each other, wells actually as striker in effective front two. So you have to accept that tactics and player selection matter or you say they don’t and it’s all down to players wanting to turn it in and off. 
 

But secondly, confidence in football is obviously a complex thing. We saw that in second half with a bit of reversion to the last few months. It’s clearly a mindset - they are not entirely comfortable with winning at the moment.
 

It can’t be as simple as players decide whether or not to be motivated and confident. Lots of things feed into that and ultimately the manager needs to take responsibility for it. 
 

As a side note, this whole ‘dean should never have been put in that position, it’s not his fault..’ argument. If I was DH I would find that so patronising. Imagine if someone said that about you and your job. Dean was ambitious, he saw a chance to progress and he went for it, interviewed well and got the job. It didn’t work out but I don’t think we do him any favours by pitying him for being ‘put in that position’. He was given a privilege of being a football manager, not asked to selflessly take on some brave mission. If that was me, I’d feel much worse about people pitying me than I would about it not working out.

Edited by the1stknowle
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None of it surprises me one bit. I’ve mentioned it previously, but that Watford game reminded me so much of the 5-0 defeat at Blackpool that led to Keith Millen leaving. The players sacked it in and, in my opinion, on both occasions let the manager down. The body language and application was woeful and that comes down to the XI on the pitch.

Shortly after Derrick McInnes replaced  Millen we went on a run of losing just three in 12 having been dreadful up until that point. 

So... rightly or wrongly it happens. It’s happened at our club before and will happen again. And that’s because players, like us, are human.

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I think it was simply a case of players playing in their proper positions using better tactics. Paul Simpson said in his pre match interview that they were trying to avoid using square pegs in round holes, that all helps. Also confidence was rock bottom & someone new coming in has probably given everyone a lift as it has the fans. 

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31 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

As a side note, this whole ‘dean should never have been put in that position, it’s not his fault..’ argument. If I was DH I would find that so patronising. Imagine if someone said that about you and your job. Dean was ambitious, he saw a chance to progress and he went for it, interviewed well and got the job. It didn’t work out but I don’t think we do him any favours by pitying him for being ‘put in that position’. He was given a privilege of being a football manager, not asked to selflessly take on some brave mission. If that was me, I’d feel much worse about people pitying me than I would about it not working out.

This is a great point, he tried to reach beyond his experience. No sympathy, took his chance but couldn’t fill the gap in his inexperience.

He’ll learn from it and will try again at an appropriate club.

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51 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

I have been watching football for 55 years and it's never been any different, it has nothing to do with the modern footballer and every to do with confidence and belief.

Agree on "confidence and belief" but what about player power nowadays compared to AD's time? Even TC and Big Joe's time?

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This is why managers change is often.  A new boss can excite, motivate and bring out the best in peoole, but they and their methods often get stale and can lose the players confidence, especially during a bad run. All managers have different approaches and sklii sets. Whilst some will put their arms around a player others will give them a kick up the backside.  It looks to me that some of our players have needed to kick up their backsides for quite a while as everyone could see that they were only giving 70 or 80% commitment for whatever reason.  They proved last night that they could be good players and it is the new managers job to insure that continues and improves where possible.  Let's hope that the club are able to give him the support he needs to take us to the top.

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8 hours ago, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

They couldn't play like that for Holden because he didn't have a clue what he was doing. Sorry, but that's my opinion. Examples:

  • Not rotating the squad early in the season, despite knowing the fixture congestion that was ahead
  • Signing Mariappa and believing he's the best option at left back, ahead of anyone in the academy
  • Repeatedly playing Moore on the left of a back three, despite him clearly struggling there
  • Rushing Mawson and Williams back. In the latter's case, there was no need when we had Nagy, Bakinson, Palmer and Massengo on the bench
  • Signing Lansbury, despite him not being fit, and playing him in DM. A simple Google search shows what Lansbury thinks of that
  • Repeatedly playing Wells on the left of the front three, despite all six of his goals (before last night) being scored in and around the six-yard box

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point.

He did himself no favours at all and crucially he wasn't learning from his mistakes. I like Holden but ultimately these types of problems are often the result of appointing a novice manager and he had to go. Hopefully he learns from the experience and comes back stronger. 

Edited by tin
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1 hour ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

Last night we saw Wells play closer to another forward than we have done for almost a year. You could see in Wells and Diedhiou goal celebrations and the way they congratulated each other when Wells was substituted that there is a friendship there. 
Mariappa (no idea how to spell his name) played in a position that we’ve not seen him play in, which was more his favourite position. 
Ryley Towler had Nagy noticing him and protecting him. 
Palmer given more freedom and further up field, linking midfield to the front line. 
The players playing with more freedom like the fear of attacking was taken away from them. 
Players thinking we’ve got a manager that can push them and be in with a chance of playing and learning from. Would not surprise me if Fammy’s agent contacted him after the announcement and said maybe we need to be here now. 

Play players in their correct positions, allow them freedom and this is what you get. They wasn’t not trying, they just could not see the plan. Barnsley was too soon for Simpson and Dowling after they’ve gone along with DH ideas. Plus they didn’t know if they were staying or leaving. 
They’ve all had a lift, the players playing for someone who will lead. Simpson and Dowling probably will be given a chance to coach alongside someone they respect. 

 

But, but, but Wells doesn’t want to be here! 😉

I think he just wanted some passes to run onto. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

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A certain amount of it is psychological, but the majority of the issues were poor tactics and players out of their natural positions.

Wells and Palmer will wake up feeling better this morning. Wells played more centrally and closer to the box. He did drift out to the wing on occasions, but that’s because he’s been brainwashed to play there for 20 odd games. I, and a lot of other fans on here have said if you play Wells in the box with decent service he will do the business.

That brings me on to Palmer. He looked class last night, playing almost behind Fam and Wells. Palmer was given freedom to roam and pick the ball up in other areas. A few passes he tried last night would have created more chances, but for boro defenders or a poor first touch.

Players running beyond the ball, creating space and options. How simple is this? Yet under Holden we rarely saw it. Players would often move forward and stand still. The player on the ball would end up turning back and playing backwards passes to non-creative team mates. The movement last night allowed Bakinson and Nagy to drive the ball forward, pass into pockets of space. This isn’t rocket science it’s just good tactical nowse and decent organisation with a decent set of players.

Vyner and Mariappa looked so much better at centre half, rather than midfield and right/left wing back. They defended everything that came in and cleared their lines, because they are defenders.

I don’t want to sit here and berate Holden for his naivety and shortsightedness, but that has gone a long way to where we currently are in the table and the lack of confidence from the players, until last night. 

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9 minutes ago, tin said:

They couldn't play like that for Holden because he didn't have a clue what he was doing. Sorry, but that's my opinion. Examples:

  • Not rotating the squad early in the season, despite knowing the fixture congestion that was ahead
  • Signing Mariappa and believing he's the best option at left back, ahead of anyone in the academy
  • Repeatedly playing Moore on the left of a back three, despite him clearly struggling there
  • Rushing Mawson and Williams back. In the latter's case, there was no need when we had Nagy, Bakinson, Palmer and Massengo on the bench
  • Signing Lansbury, despite him not being fit, and playing him in DM. A simple Google search shows what Lansbury thinks of that
  • Repeatedly playing Wells on the left of the front three, despite all six of his goals (before last night) being scored in and around the six-yard box

I could go on but I'm sure you get the point.

He did himself no favours at all and crucially he wasn't learning from his mistakes. I like Holden but ultimately these types of problems are often the result of appointing a novice manager and he had to go. Hopefully he learns from the experience and comes back stronger. 

I think we saw on Saturday, that the game plan from Simpson and Downing was crap and unconvincing.  The players need clear instruction, simple instruction, but they’ve got to believe in it too.  It was like they weren’t prepared for Barnsley, a bit like they weren’t for Cardiff, Rotherham etc.  Players have to show more strength of character though.

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1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

If you look at the mood on these boards pre-matchon Saturday and the mood on these boards yesterday you’d have seen a completely different mood amongst pretty much all the posters and an optimism that was not there before. Why wouldn’t players be the same?

I get it is frustrating but players are human. People who aren’t confident in their jobs, aren’t sure where things are going and who are plagued by uncertainty struggle to perform well at work. People who feel their organisation has direction, who feel there is a clear plan and who are optimistic for the future tend to perform well. 

It’s not really surprising that, even before he has done anything, the appointment of a respected manager known for good, clear leadership has lifted the mood of the players and it is not surprisingly that the change in psychology has changed to a change in performance.

People often criticise players’ attitudes as though they are wholly within the control of players but anyone who has ever had a job knows that how your manager and your organisations acts and communicates affects how confident, motivated and optimistic you feel and how confident, motivated and optimistic you feel has a huge effect on your performance.

Holden seemed like a good man but his job was to get players putting in the kind of performance you put in when you are confident, motivated and optimistic and he was not achieving that.

Absolutely nail on head.

As Tinnion pointed out on RobinsTV - "Football is 90% psychological" - It's sad to say but the players clearly lost belief and faith in the message and tactics from Holden. If I was a player and I had to listen to Holden's pep talks over and over without the tactical solutions to get us out the hole, I would lose faith too.

The psychological lift from someone like Pearson can't be underestimated. These players want to be challenging at the top of the table - if they feel they have a manager that will facilitate that and more importantly they are at a club that has the ambition to appoint a manager like Pearson - that's how you get players performing their best, not the empty positive phrases rolled out week after week previously. 

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4 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

But, but, but Wells doesn’t want to be here! 😉

I think he just wanted some passes to run onto. 🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️🤷🏻‍♂️

Agreed - playing him wide was madness. He's quite a limited player really but a natural poacher; you have to play him to his strengths otherwise no point him being here.

I genuinely think, if we must play a front 3, Diedhiou would be more effective wide than Wells as a Mandžukić style wide target man. Perhaps leave it to pre-season to experiment with that though 😆

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2 minutes ago, Red white and red said:

A certain amount of it is psychological, but the majority of the issues were poor tactics and players out of their natural positions.

Wells and Palmer will wake up feeling better this morning. Wells played more centrally and closer to the box. He did drift out to the wing on occasions, but that’s because he’s been brainwashed to play there for 20 odd games. I, and a lot of other fans on here have said if you play Wells in the box with decent service he will do the business.

That brings me on to Palmer. He looked class last night, playing almost behind Fam and Wells. Palmer was given freedom to roam and pick the ball up in other areas. A few passes he tried last night would have created more chances, but for boro defenders or a poor first touch.

Players running beyond the ball, creating space and options. How simple is this? Yet under Holden we rarely saw it. Players would often move forward and stand still. The player on the ball would end up turning back and playing backwards passes to non-creative team mates. The movement last night allowed Bakinson and Nagy to drive the ball forward, pass into pockets of space. This isn’t rocket science it’s just good tactical nowse and decent organisation with a decent set of players.

Vyner and Mariappa looked so much better at centre half, rather than midfield and right/left wing back. They defended everything that came in and cleared their lines, because they are defenders.

I don’t want to sit here and berate Holden for his naivety and shortsightedness, but that has gone a long way to where we currently are in the table and the lack of confidence from the players, until last night. 

All this ⬆️⬆️⬆️
 

As for Holden I think he got caught not knowing what to do.  Naive and inexperienced unfortunately.

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1 hour ago, the1stknowle said:

I take the point and I know a lot of fans feel the same but I said on another thread that I don’t agree it’s as simple as players turning it off and on. 
 

Firstly, Dean never played that team. Kalas on left, marriapa middle, midfield three that complement each other, wells actually as striker in effective front two. So you have to accept that tactics and player selection matter or you say they don’t and it’s all down to players wanting to turn it in and off. 
 

But secondly, confidence in football is obviously a complex thing. We saw that in second half with a bit of reversion to the last few months. It’s clearly a mindset - they are not entirely comfortable with winning at the moment.
 

It can’t be as simple as players decide whether or not to be motivated and confident. Lots of things feed into that and ultimately the manager needs to take responsibility for it. 
 

As a side note, this whole ‘dean should never have been put in that position, it’s not his fault..’ argument. If I was DH I would find that so patronising. Imagine if someone said that about you and your job. Dean was ambitious, he saw a chance to progress and he went for it, interviewed well and got the job. It didn’t work out but I don’t think we do him any favours by pitying him for being ‘put in that position’. He was given a privilege of being a football manager, not asked to selflessly take on some brave mission. If that was me, I’d feel much worse about people pitying me than I would about it not working out.

I’ve said DH shouldn’t have been put in that position but have no way pitied him. It was more directed to those who appointed him. Yes he might have been ambitious but also possibly caught up with positive affirmation from those in charge. Who knows if they convinced him to take it?

I would hope he will learn from the whole blooming shit show and come back stronger. Plenty of people take roles that they weren’t capable or ready for.

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8 hours ago, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

Why do people feel sorry for Dean. He took a job that he was not experienced or capable of doing. He gave it a go and failed. Hopefully he will get another job and start with a smaller club and learn his trade. The experience should benefit him in the long run.

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Imagine you have a job and your contract expires in a couple of months. 

Imagine your employer is saying nothing about whether you will be retained. 

Imagine you think your boss is not up to it. 

Imagine you think your boss is not helping you keep your job

imagine you think your boss is making it more likely you will be let go. 

Imagine you thought at the time he was appointed he should not have been given the job. 

 

How hard are would you work, would you give it your very best (I would be on job sites and LinkedIn all day). 

Now

imagine they hire a new boss

this new one really knows what he is doing

you feel, if you impress this new boss you will get to keep your job

you won’t have to move your family to another part of the country

your kids can stay at their current school with their friends. 

Would you stop with the LinkedIn and start performing better?  I would. 

Edited by Southport Red
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Moore, Paterson and Lansbury - all involved in our worst results/performances - not included last night.

All either not very good, or out of form, so their replacement with better players will have made a big difference on it's own.

You can't start with 3 obviously weak areas in this league, it brings the whole team down.

There's no doubt Pearson's arrival had a positive affect but it was also a far better and more balanced team last night than recently.. 

 

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9 hours ago, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

Mixed thoughts on this.

I was first to say on here perhaps the coaches etc knew more than we did when it came to team selection. I thought it was pretty damn obvious Kalas should have played behind Towler at Watford - why would you not put your most experienced player next to the new kid? There had to be a reason right?

Well in hindsight perhaps not, because it appears thats one of things Pearson might have had input in yesterday. 

Secondly, they all seemed to refuse to play Bakinson and Nagy together regularly with a Palmer/Pato/Lansbury in front (palmer probably being the best option of the 3 right now) despite a lot of people on here begging for it

Do I think the players were giving 100% at the end? Probably not. Was there reasons for that? We constantly played unfit players or rushed people back, Lansbury has picked up another injury, Pato wasn't fit, Sess probably wasn't either. I'd love to hear behind the scenes but I can imagine Dean being a bit of a "man up" type. His constant referral to what he's been through in interviews suggests he probably brings that up in private too (not knocking what hes been through btw) but I can see him telling a player "that's nothing compared to X, get on with it" sort of thing and forcing players to play through the pain barrier. Just look at how he left Lansbury on intially and see Tommy Rowe too being picked when he was clearly injured.

Lastly, it's amazing what a bit of confidence can do to a player. I've experienced it in football, and in other sports and training. Sometimes the delivery of a message might not get through, change the way it's said or the cues you're giving and it can soon sink in. One of the biggest things in management is understand how to talk to each person and understanding what they need to get the message or understand what you ask of them. I think Lee struggled with this and so did Dean. 

It's very possible Pearson watched our last few games, saw some glaringly obvious issues and had a quick word with a few players before the game - or even just put an arm around a couple of them and gave them some belief. If you're a Palmer, Nagy, Wells that's struggled to get into the team with the last manager or two then getting told by the new manager that you are well in their plans could be enough to lift you.

Confidence and belief in sport is a huge thing, especially in sports where there is an opposition, it's not all controllable by the individual no matter how hard they try.

 

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9 hours ago, Sniper said:

Am I happy that we've got Nigel in, yes of course.

Am I happy that we stopped the rot tonight, yes or course.

Am I happy with the players, like **** am I.

Dumb and Dumber picked the team against Barnsley and we lost at a whimper like the previous games!

Dumb and Dumber picked the team tonight?

So Nigel popped in and said hello, then they played like that, really!

They play when they want, and the point of this rant is I feel so sorry for Dean, why couldn't they play like that for him?

Too much sniping.....Sniper?   Simply a case of round pegs in round holes, of course the players must take some of the blame. but give them clear precise tactics and play each of them in their most efficient position, and you get results.  As someone else alluded to, football is a simple game if you don't over complicate it.   

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1 hour ago, Southport Red said:

Imagine you have a job and your contract expires in a couple of months. 

Imagine your employer is saying nothing about whether you will be retained. 

Imagine you think your boss is not up to it. 

Imagine you think your boss is not helping you keep your job

imagine you think your boss is making it more likely you will be let go. 

Imagine you thought at the time he was appointed he should not have been given the job. 

 

How hard are would you work, would you give it your very best (I would be on job sites and LinkedIn all day). 

Now

imagine they hire a new boss

this new one really knows what he is doing

you feel, if you impress this new boss you will get to keep your job

you won’t have to move your family to another part of the country

your kids can stay at their current school with their friends. 

Would you stop with the LinkedIn and start performing better?  I would. 

Some good points there, but footballers' versions of Linkedin are agents, words from contacts in the industry and videos.

Potential employers seeing them be crap, won't help their prospects, just get them moved on with nowhere to go but down.

Would you look at someone and think "They're really rubbish, I must employ them"

Many forget about the family aspects you mention, moving home schools etc. and how unsettling it can be.

Although difficult, isn't that even more reason to put the effort in when things go bad?

When Andy Weimann joined, part of the reason was the opportunity to play centrally, not out wide where he was before.

That didn't work out for him well, but not a sign of sulking.

Obviously as he injured this is just an opinion, but I think he would have been running, not logging in to Linkedin.

 

Edited by MJP3
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We had just lost 6-0 at Watford & the next press conference Holden was banging on about his lovely Valnetines day and how supportive his family were.....the bloke was lost, defeated & had no idea what do, to the point he seemed genuinely depressed, this would of rubbed off on the players. Also, its a big help when players are actually played in their right position like last night mind....

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3 hours ago, Silvio Dante said:

I posted a thread a few weeks ago titled “Can the Players be enjoying it?”. Crux of that was that playing as we did, playing ultra defensive, inviting pressure and hoping to nick a goal was mentally as well as physically draining. That was confirmed in Kalas’s interview Saturday when he expressed sickness at that approach.

Yesterday, we attacked. We tried to play football. And the players responded and enjoyed it.

It was never about players not trying. It was about the way we setup making them look garbage.

A few little tweaks to the set up last night made a difference.

Mariappa in the centre (maybe NP suggested that as he knows his best position), Kalas to the left, where he plays for his country and where he could keep an eye on Towler and Wells given a role which he enjoys playing - not wide left or right. Midfield playing on the front foot also a major factor pushing the team further up the pitch, not dug in around our own penalty area. Very solid and balanced.

I'm not sure how much that had to do with NP but they were much needed tweaks.

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If the players had 'downed tools', I'd like to thank them, as it's forced the board to act in a way that is commensurate with the oft stated aim of 'getting to where we'd like to be', and employ someone who is genuinely capable of achieving that goal, and not mess around in some half arsed fashion by appointing someone not commensurate with the stated aim. The team had become a shambles and we'd all become pissed off and dispirited with it and the board. I imagine a lot of the players were aswell.

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1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I’ve said DH shouldn’t have been put in that position but have no way pitied him. It was more directed to those who appointed him. Yes he might have been ambitious but also possibly caught up with positive affirmation from those in charge. Who knows if they convinced him to take it?

I would hope he will learn from the whole blooming shit show and come back stronger. Plenty of people take roles that they weren’t capable or ready for.

I’m definitely not talking about anyone in particular. But I’ve seen a lot on here and on radio say they feel sorry for Dean for being put in that position. (Which is different from just saying ‘he shouldn’t have been put in that position’ - that is just saying ‘he shouldn’t have got job’). 
 

Maybe it’s a personal thing but if that was me, losing my job would sting less than the fact people felt sorry for me for getting that job in first place. 

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21 minutes ago, bcfc01 said:

A few little tweaks to the set up last night made a difference.

Mariappa in the centre (maybe NP suggested that as he knows his best position), Kalas to the left, where he plays for his country and where he could keep an eye on Towler and Wells given a role which he enjoys playing - not wide left or right. Midfield playing on the front foot also a major factor pushing the team further up the pitch, not dug in around our own penalty area. Very solid and balanced.

I'm not sure how much that had to do with NP but they were much needed tweaks.

I think Kasey's advanced role was very important. With the exceptional pair behind him too.

No coincidence that getting the midfield playing well and blend right and our strikers look much better.

It really shouldn't amaze me, but it did amaze me seeing Wells and Diedhiou passing it first time to someone supporting them. Something I can't remember seeing from them before. One and two touch stuff from the class midfield, but also by Wells and Fam. That did kind of stop happening the longer the game went on though as we got deeper and the support was not there.

In Holden's preferred 352 with 1 holder and 2 box to box, we'd often have our wing backs not not very advanced. And with us deep and our midfielders deep too, it would really make the strikers job difficult.

I don't think Fam was suddenly trying harder. Just that he was far more effective with a team set up well around him. Maybe Boro tactics helped us. Every game will be different so I'm not getting too excited.

 

 

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2 minutes ago, the1stknowle said:

I’m definitely not talking about anyone in particular. But I’ve seen a lot on here and on radio say they feel sorry for Dean for being put in that position. (Which is different from just saying ‘he shouldn’t have been put in that position’ - that is just saying ‘he shouldn’t have got job’). 
 

Maybe it’s a personal thing but if that was me, losing my job would sting less than the fact people felt sorry for me for getting that job in first place. 

I think that press conference that the journo's (apart from Gregor) treated DH like an idiot by asking questions about Valentines and how he was feeling didn't do him any favours. I feel sorry for him for them putting him in that position but that's not pity. He chose to take the job. I'm sorry for him getting loads of stick and don't like the nasty vitriol from some quarters, but that's not pity. I know what you mean though, it would rankle if people started patting me on the head (metaphorically) and said 'never mind' with a sad face…:redcard:

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