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European Super League


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24 minutes ago, Redpool said:

This is all Sky’s and the PL’a fault. They created this baby 30 years ago and now this baby is fully grown and is ready to up and leave the nest. 30 years of evolution in the making. 

It is not Sky's fault for putting shed loads of money into football

Its the way the clubs have spent that money 

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Just now, Maltshoveller said:

It is not Sky's fault for putting shed loads of money into football

Its the way the clubs have spent that money 

Yep the PL takes blame as to there being no tighter restrictions around sustainably was stupid especially when the money started increasing year on year and then especially when Abramovich came in and started splashing money everywhere, the PL stood aside and let it happen as it raised the profile of the league.

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2 hours ago, Lrrr said:

The other 14 could apply to join the EFL? 

I'm just trying to think of a way where the top two divisions of football can have proper terracing again. I don't think joining the EFL would work as the club's would still come under the FA.

Terracing is still allowed in the lower leagues, and in other sports such as rugby, so my thinking is to remove the football clubs from the barriers that are preventing the top teams having terracing ie. The FA.

I might have it wrong, and it could be the law that says the top two divisions can't have terracing in football. In which case, create a new association and call it kickball/toeball/lowering ball, but anything that can't prevent terracing being used.

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27 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Right, so, hypothetically, UEFA are on about banning all ESL players from their competitions, I'll assume the EPL will do the same.

What would happen when say, Man U want to sign the next Ronaldo and sell, for example, Rashford? He can't come back to the EPL so would United be stuck with him?

By the same token, as mentioned earlier, would all the academy players be in the same boat, not being able to transfer to another English club as their current club are going into the ESL?

Personally, I think this is far further down the path than we realise, website, teams arranged, fixture organisation sorted, clubs signed up. I think this is much closer than we realise, sadly. 

 

On another point, I appreciate this would weaken the English football 'product' but, if this is the big reset, could it come back stronger with a more sensible financial outlook? The same goes for the other leagues in Europe I guess.

I've been thinking about the exit door for ESL players. You're right that potentially the FA could enforce a lifetime ban for ESL players (although it's probably not in their best interests to do so), but the ESL would wield its skeletal reach to ensure there is a haven league. Perhaps a league already in existence, perhaps a new secondary tier altogether.

22 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Good post Mozo.

I have no issue with the clubs going for an ESL, but they want to stay in PL too. How long before the 6’s PL team becomes akin to a B Team, or at least a mix, as travel dictates rest and rotation.  If they believe in the ESL so much, go the whole hog.  But they don’t, they want cake and eat it.  What happens if they finish in a relegation spot?

As for City, until we start to hear any noise of the potential new investment, it’s really difficult to lay down my rules, other than “right fit for City”.  I don’t know what that is, not really my area of expertise, so will have to wait and see who comes in and what the deal is.  It’s vague rather than blasé / lassez faire.

Thanks mate. 

Very vague, which seems to be the modus operandi at Ashton Gate. I hope there is proper scrutiny if/when investment detail breaks.

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12 minutes ago, mozo said:

I've been thinking about the exit door for ESL players. You're right that potentially the FA could enforce a lifetime ban for ESL players (although it's probably not in their best interests to do so), but the ESL would wield its skeletal reach to ensure there is a haven league. Perhaps a league already in existence, perhaps a new secondary tier altogether.

Thanks mate. 

Very vague, which seems to be the modus operandi at Ashton Gate. I hope there is proper scrutiny if/when investment detail breaks.

I wonder if a simple way of handling players futures could be based around their current contracts.

Whenever your contract expires, if you agree to extend your contract with one of these 6 teams then you technically tie yourself to the ESL and forfeit any return. 

So basically, at the point of contract renewal, you can return, door is open, but if you stay the door closes for good. 

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20 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Yep the PL takes blame as to there being no tighter restrictions around sustainably was stupid especially when the money started increasing year on year and then especially when Abramovich came in and started splashing money everywhere, the PL stood aside and let it happen as it raised the profile of the league.

Blame David Dein (Arsenal) and Irving Scholar (Spurs).  Dein for changing the rules that restricted how much the directors could take out of the club as dividends, to allow them to take out whatever they wanted.  Scholar for the concept of the holding company so that debt could be loaded to the football club, and profit in the holding company that wasn’t restricted by the dividend rule that Dein sought to change.

The changes above meant the likes of Abramovic could take advantage.

And you’re right, the PL allowed it, facilitated it.

The local wealthy businessman outmuscled with the odd exception.

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Having given this matter very little thought I have decided simple solution they have my blessing to go, just leave their golden share on the table on the way out.

I will give them to clubs that give a **** (probably asterisked out but begins with F). 

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1 hour ago, Harry said:

I wonder if a simple way of handling players futures could be based around their current contracts.

Whenever your contract expires, if you agree to extend your contract with one of these 6 teams then you technically tie yourself to the ESL and forfeit any return. 

So basically, at the point of contract renewal, you can return, door is open, but if you stay the door closes for good. 

Yeah that works. Like I say though, you can block a return to the EPL but the ESL powers and the super agents will make sure there are cosy options elsewhere.

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If it is true as Perez says there’s no backing out for those signed on, they’ve signed a 23 year commitment without fully knowing all the founding sides involved, no approval from governing bodies and no confirmation of actual logistics around it other than what could easily fit on a napkin. Perez is president of the league Real and Barca are desperate for this league given their debts needing to be repaid. The English clubs don’t so desperately need the money so this could end horribly if the lawyers for ESL make clubs stay to their commitments, I expect most thought it would be used as a heavy bargaining chip 

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3 hours ago, mozo said:

 

I don't see fans abandoning their clubs in great numbers. When the Glazers swooped for Man U there was loads of "I'm out" noise but Old Trafford still sells out, despite selling out.

 

 

I think the thing then was people were warning that selling to US multi-sports franchise owners would lead to this, but the majority just accepted that things would continue as normal. And they've been proved wrong.

There's much more disquiet about the prospect of leaving the PL and effectively abandoning English football as they've known it.

A Man U diehard I know has told me this would be the last straw for him. Born in Salford, the guy has followed the club all his life, but now he's prepared to walk away.  

My sister-in-law and her husband have had Liverpool STs for decades. Spent tens upon tens of thousands following the club everywhere. They say they don't want this and will not be watching the club if it isn't in the English league system.  The husband reckons he'll just watch Bolton, the club nearest their home. 

Just anecdotal evidence, but I think your posts overestimate the attraction an ESL would have for fans Especially if it cuts them off from competitions in their home countries.

 

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3 hours ago, Lrrr said:

Found it hard to listen to Steve Parish the way he squirmed his way past avoiding blame for not helping championship clubs, I remember at the time we were pointed at as one of the reasons why championships didn't need to be helped as we'd made a profit in our last accounts, only because we'd sold players on our way to doing that. We got **** all help from the PL and are only getting help because the EFL is getting a loan from an American bank and the PL are 'helping' by acting as guarantor essentially on that loan. Sorry Steve (Parish) but you may go into PL meetings voting as if you're one of us but your actions as a PL owner when it mattered showed you don't give a flying **** about us!

Agree with a lot of your post but it is true that there were examples in terms of Championship clubs when it comes to PL help.

We however should have been way down that list...clubs who spent beyond their means, exploited loopholes and so on are good examples but we're one of the better ones! What a bizarre example for him to choose...

Cardiff loaning Harry Wilson and then putting in for a bailout- that in addition to loophole clubs is a good example- but us?? Whaat!

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16 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

If it is true as Perez says there’s no backing out for those signed on, they’ve signed a 23 year commitment without fully knowing all the founding sides involved, no approval from governing bodies and no confirmation of actual logistics around it other than what could easily fit on a napkin. Perez is president of the league Real and Barca are desperate for this league given their debts needing to be repaid. The English clubs don’t so desperately need the money so this could end horribly if the lawyers for ESL make clubs stay to their commitments, I expect most thought it would be used as a heavy bargaining chip 

Those two are in good company tbh.

Courtesy of Swiss Ramble on Monday.

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He did one on short term debt a while ago too...will see if I can find but Barcelona's position was most precarious.

However, capacity to pay it down is of course key- as well as the timeframe.

Juventus though I don't expect them to fall into out and out financial trouble, also apparently have/had 100m euros to find by end of June, presumably for FFP.

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5 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Those two are in good company tbh.

Courtesy of Swiss Ramble on Monday.

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He did one on short term debt a while ago too...will see if I can find but Barcelona's position was most precarious.

However, capacity to pay it down is of course key- as well as the timeframe.

Tottenham’s debt is to be paid off long term though as many English clubs the debt is manageable, Barca and Read is the tax repayment debt which is being called in soon apparently 

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4 minutes ago, Lrrr said:

Tottenham’s debt is to be paid off long term though as many English clubs the debt is manageable, Barca and Read is the tax repayment debt which is being called in soon apparently 

Will see if I can find his bit on Debt Profiles- and that's the thing long term debt is fine, short term debt- probably if not for pandemic might not have proven such an issue for Barcelona in particular? Tottenham £175m loan repayable to BOE, Arsenal £120m- both were this May I thought? Similarly, no Pandemic, less issues- certainly no need for BOE loan.

I don't remember Real Madrid having quite the same issues in that regard, ie huge short term debt pile.

In his second set of figures, the bit in red- "Other Debt"- struggling to reconcile it with the 1st.

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7 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Will see if I can find his bit on Debt Profiles- and that's the thing long term debt is fine, short term debt- probably if not for pandemic might not have proven such an issue for Barcelona in particular? Tottenham £175m loan repayable to BOE, Arsenal £120m- both were this May I thought? Similarly, no Pandemic, less issues- certainly no need for BOE loan.

I don't remember Real Madrid having quite the same issues in that regard, ie huge short term debt pile.

In his second set of figures, the bit in red- "Other Debt"- struggling to reconcile it with the 1st.

Well this is Barca 

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Yeah, Barcelona's position notably more serious than Real Madrid's IMO.

On a side note, can't help but notice FIFA's angry reaction was lukewarm by comparison to Neville, UEFA and varied other individuals. Which is fine but a little bit awkward considering this article from last October...?

https://inews.co.uk/sport/football/european-premier-league-super-fifa-teams-liverpool-man-utd-what-explained-731695

Their statement below, from the Standard.

https://www.standard.co.uk/sport/football/european-super-league-fifa-disapproval-b930385.html

Looking at the article from last October, cannot help but wonder if they might have been initially involved on some level. Referenced the same clubs- referenced JP Morgan even! Blatter, for all his faults would have come out swinging about it I am sure.

Indeed, in 1998 he did just that!

https://www.theguardian.com/football/1998/sep/26/newsstory.sport9

Whereas FIFA yesterday perhaps did not.

I saw an article I cannot now find, that was from 2001 I think- he ranted about this issue. FIFA's response...makes me wonder about any prior involvement.

Found it.

https://www.sportbusiness.com/news/blatter-warns-against-break-away-super-league/

Quote

BLATTER WARNS AGAINST BREAK AWAY SUPER LEAGUE

SportBusiness Staff

September 27, 2001

In Moscow to unveil his “Goal” project to help soccer in former Soviet republics, Blatter took time to warn clubs against defying FIFA’s authority.
“We must protect the national associations and the clubs against any attempts to create various leagues outside of the existing Confederations, outside of our FIFA family,” he said.
“Just 10 days ago I had a meeting with (UEFA President) Lennart Johansson and both of us absolutely agreed that these leagues shall not be permitted. Those who do not follow our laws shall be expelled.”
Last year, 14 of Europe’s top clubs talked of establishing a breakaway Super League, with the help of the Media Partners marketing group, to maximise television and marketing revenues.
“We can’t allow some clubs just to come in, take the best and go away, because we must look after all our members and not just a few,” Blatter said.

Quote

World football governing body Fifa have now also released a statement to voice their disapproval regarding a “closed European breakaway league” that exists outside of international football structures and does not reflect the values of the game.

“In view of several media requests and as already stated several times, FIFA wishes to clarify that it stands firm in favour of solidarity in football and an equitable redistribution model which can help develop football as a sport, particularly at global level, since the development of global football is the primary mission of FIFA,” Fifa said.

“In our view, and in accordance with our statutes, any football competition, whether national, regional or global, should always reflect the core principles of solidarity, inclusivity, integrity and equitable financial redistribution.

“Moreover, the governing bodies of football should employ all lawful, sporting and diplomatic means to ensure this remains the case. Against this background, FIFA can only express its disapproval to a "closed European breakaway league" outside of the international football structures and not respecting the aforementioned principles.

FIFA always stands for unity in world football and calls on all parties involved in heated discussions to engage in calm, constructive and balanced dialogue for the good of the game and in the spirit of solidarity and fair play. FIFA will, of course, do whatever is necessary to contribute to a harmonised way forward in the overall interests of football.”

 

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4 hours ago, billywedlock said:

They have assumed that the fans want that product every week. Do they ? I dont know. 

They are only considering the overseas market, not the paying spectators in the ground. On BBC news last night, an Inter fan in China who was loving the fact he could watch better quality matches on telly/online. That's the market they are concerned with, those numbers can increase exponentially. Whether they’d get bored of it? I expect so. 

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10 hours ago, Harry said:

Did Jack Harrison wear one?

He’s still permanently employed by Man City - only a loan to Leeds. 

What would his employers make of the fact he wore it? 
 

Anyway - it’s a total token gesture. If Kalvin Phillips was sold to Liverpool in the summer I’m sure he wouldn’t give two ***** - he’d be there in a flash and doubling his money. 


He’s effectively our player, we have a right to buy.

We just extended the deal and added £2m onto the purchase price to free up money for signings.

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1 minute ago, Olé said:

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I seen a clip from sky I think and quoted a board member of one of the six and it was along the lines of our jobs are to maximise revenue and the club’s stature and everything else is secondary. 
 

I think this is done and they are going to go regardless of any court cases and what the various entities do. They will get enough money to go at it for a few years and gamble the domestic leagues and uefa start to die without them. Then they will be asked to come back and will take what they want again. Imo it is too late to save it but hope I am wrong

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So if this was to materialise, would Sky reduce money paid to Prem and go searching for contract to television rights for Super League?

Would the likes of Gary Neville pundit on such games?

Interesting that Super League are taking this to court to get it going as they have to, due to £4 billion grant given by JP Morgan. On behalf of shareholders so grant can be decided amongst them. 

 

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1 minute ago, spudski said:

So if this was to materialise, would Sky reduce money paid to Prem and go searching for contract to television rights for Super League?

Would the likes of Gary Neville pundit on such games?

Interesting that Super League are taking this to court to get it going as they have to, due to £4 billion grant given by JP Morgan. On behalf of shareholders so grant can be decided amongst them. 

 

No doubt in my mind they won’t pay the same if they were kicked out of the league. And someone will get the rights to it. The tv companies are a big reason why this will work. 

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3 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

No doubt in my mind they won’t pay the same if they were kicked out of the league. And someone will get the rights to it. The tv companies are a big reason why this will work. 

It will only work for a brief period, like the Kerry Packer cricket series, there will be insufficient variety to maintain the interest of the public. 

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