City release accounts - Ouch!

[Davefevs]

48 minutes ago, Countryfile said:

My head is hurting from all this who owns what, I am completely confused.

Can some one tell this idiot the answers to these questions.

Who owns the players contracts, and is a member of the EFL?
Who owns the training ground and the stadium?
Please don’t answer SL.

From @Coppello

(With scribbles from me)

from @ExiledAjax

23 minutes ago, Hxj said:

If you add up the 2020 operational costs in AGL and BCFC they are about £3.5 million more than the operational costs in BCH, which suggests that £3.5 million of BCFC operational costs are paid to AGL. 

Ta, that rings a bell from looking at the accounts last year.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Davefevs

[Son of Fred]

7 minutes ago, Port Said Red said:

Thank you Priti Patel

Currently moonlighting alongside Diane Abbott in Cinderella

[Bris Red]

A horrendous set of accounts but not surprising. Where do we go from here is the million dollar question? It certainly isn’t going to be easy..

[Hxj]

4 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Doesn't feel positive anyway, a lot of cash will be flowing out of the club to SL in the years to come?

The loans will be rewritten on a regular basis.  I think that Pula Sports Limited is keeping the loans commercial in each period.

[Bris Red]

2 minutes ago, spudski said:

Similar to me. It wasn't so much the money for me, just the ball ache of getting there, either by car or public transport. 

Plus...I was bored with it. It just wasn't entertainment. Regardless of results.

I now watch my local team. Can decide 15 mins before to go, have a few pints, stand or sit anywhere around the ground, see mates etc....plus I find it more entertaining. 

It's been cathartic and feels like FREEDOM.

All for a tenner and no hassles. 

What's not to like.

I’ve been the same. I’ve got back into playing golf again after a bit of time away from the game and that takes up most of my Saturday’s now to be honest!

Sad that loyal lifelong fans are staying away but things at the club need to change before i come back in a committed way as i have in the past.

[cidercity1987]

Meanwhile it can't possibly be Ashton's fault according to Ipswich fans

https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/526792/bristol-city-make-�38.4m-loss/#13

[KegCity]

4 minutes ago, RUSSEL85 said:

So, how on earth do we get out of this rather big pickle? Do we have any assets we can sell? Or is that papering over a very large crack?

Release big earners we can’t sell?

Lower match day prices to increase attendance and possible merchandise?

reinvest in youth squad or promote to first team?

I wonder if there is an inevitable relegation, if not this season then next. It’s quite depressing.

That’s something I’d like to see, although I’ve got no clue how this would affect finances.

Charging nearly £40 to non-members to watch terrible football is borderline criminal, I certainly wouldn’t pay it if I wasn’t a season ticket holder. I’ve got friends who study in Bristol who watch the gas instead of us because of the stark difference in cost. 

You would assume we would sell more tickets charging say, £20 (or slightly higher) and making an effort to fill the place than we currently do. Without doing any maths surely the increased matchday revenue from the additional supporters buying food/drink would end up making up for the reduced income from tickets?

[Pezo]

59 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Hope this marks the end of the financial model reliant on player sales. Covid has exposed just how unreliable and unsustainable it is. The club was totally dependant on good recruitment that developed players we could sell for huge profits, this can't be guaranteed and in a worse case scenario like this sets us back years.

Be very disappointed to see the club fold at the first bid for Scott etc. The desperation to sell our best assets is bizarre, unless a player downs tools we should be doing our best to actually build a side.

Selling players makes sense - it's the only way to get enough money in to compete at the top end of the table, I can't think of another way to fund running the club at the top end of the championship without PP.

Recruitment is key - players should sell themselves but we need to buy players that can replace them and don't have massive wage demands.

Selling players like Scott makes no sense IMHO because he won't be a high earner.

[KegCity]

1 minute ago, cidercity1987 said:

Meanwhile it can't possibly be Ashton's fault according to Ipswich fans

https://www.twtd.co.uk/forum/526792/bristol-city-make-�38.4m-loss/#13

Let them learn themselves. Many of us ignored Watford fans and had to learn the hard way and Ipswich fans will be the same.

[Davefevs]

Just now, bris red said:

A horrendous set of accounts but not surprising. Where do we go from here is the million dollar question? It certainly isn’t going to be easy..

All season Nige has been talking about a trimmer squad…now you know why.

Richard Gould stated we need to maximise every pound spent…that means try to move on those squad members not playing.

Nige (Manager) and Gould (CEO) aligned….is a good start.  It’s why Nige has been open about moving on players.  It won’t be easy though.

Both deserve some credit for taking on this challenge.  I trust them.  That’s not saying they will achieve, but I trust them to do the right thing.  I cannot say that about the previous CEO, and I think the “bad side” of LJ (he had good things too) was that he pushed and pushed for more and was allowed to do so.  Yeah, he had to sell players, but he got to invest a bloody big portion of that money (fees and wages), more than a sustainable model suggests he should have.

[Merrick's Marvels]

10 minutes ago, JonDolman said:

When asked about how this window could be the hardest Pearson replied 'I don't know, it could be. It could turn out to be quite easy. I don't 

A very Pearson response. 

But at least his response wasn't "we're not looking to do any business" and so, by implication, confirming we are trying to get some new faces through the door.

On the other hand, he might just have double bluffed us. I bet he's good at poker. 

[KegCity]

Just now, Pezo said:

Selling players makes sense - it's the only way to get enough money in to compete at the top end of the table, I can't think of another way to fund running the club at the top end of the championship without PP.

Recruitment is key - players should sell themselves but we need to buy players that can replace them and don't have massive wage demands.

Selling players like Scott makes no sense IMHO because he won't be a high earner.

Can’t be many clubs who regularly sell their best players and get out the league? I don’t see how it’s possible to constantly tear apart squads and expect progress, you can see in the difference between the squad that beat united and the current one what happens with this model. It hasn’t even worked as there’s no guarantees around the quality of recruitment.

[Davefevs]

11 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Let them learn themselves. Many of us ignored Watford fans and had to learn the hard way and Ipswich fans will be the same.

They have no concept of the roles, responsibilities and accountability of a CEO.  Eff me, some of them are amazingly ignorant.

10 minutes ago, Merrick's Marvels said:

A very Pearson response. 

But at least his response wasn't "we're not looking to do any business" and so, by implication, confirming we are trying to get some new faces through the door.

On the other hand, he might just have double bluffed us. I bet he's good at poker. 

I bet he’s not.

His “tells” are bleeding obvious.

Edited December 28, 2021 by Davefevs

[INCRED]

If so many other clubs in the division are in the same boat or worse off then how the hell are they so much better than us?

[Bristol Oil Services]

2 hours ago, Red Army 75 said:

SL has publicly said he is seeking new investment. Openly said it. All this be careful for what you wish for is out of the fans hands. Inevitably he will sell the club. And within the next couple of years IMO

There's other things to be more "careful" about these days, I find. 

[REDOXO]

44 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

That’s really interesting. In 2015 Cotterill had an excellent squad, by League One standards, though not good enough to be competitive in the Championship. What was needed was a small number of quality additions but what we got was an endless stream of players who pushed up the wage bill without any return on investment 

That’s interesting. The Gayle/Grey saga was weird. Again plenty on here know a lot more than meets the eye. Who did we sign, I honestly can not remember, between promotion and Cotterill getting sacked. The Sack Cloth saga was just laughable as well. Pembo took over then LJ n Ashton went on a spending spree. As I remember it ably assisted by JL and SL and any mentions of what were we doing were met with my money my men my choice was my own assessment. 

[Pezo]

9 minutes ago, KegCity said:

Can’t be many clubs who regularly sell their best players and get out the league? I don’t see how it’s possible to constantly tear apart squads and expect progress, you can see in the difference between the squad that beat united and the current one what happens with this model. It hasn’t even worked as there’s no guarantees around the quality of recruitment.

You need to figure out what the risks are and find mitigation.

The biggest risk is recruitment both individually and fitting into the squad so put a lot of effort into getting the right players in the right places and don't sell players that you don't already know who the replacement is. Don't let a wheeler dealer take recruitment apart and arrogantly think he is the master of recruitment.

[Port Said Red]

23 minutes ago, Son of Fred said:

Currently moonlighting alongside Diane Abbott in Cinderella

With 1 hundreddy 1000 ugly sisters.

[RedHienz]

Is anyone shocked by this? Almost every business reliant on people attending in person has suffered.

SL out posts aplenty on here but the reality of football is that we need him more then he needs us, nobody either as an individual or state run consortium would continue this level of investment.

 

[Northern Red]

3 minutes ago, REDOXO said:

That’s interesting. The Gayle/Grey saga was weird. Again plenty on here know a lot more than meets the eye. Who did we sign, I honestly can not remember, between promotion and Cotterill getting sacked. The Sack Cloth saga was just laughable as well. Pembo took over then LJ n Ashton went on a spending spree. As I remember it ably assisted by JL and SL and any mentions of what were we doing were met with my money my men my choice was my own assessment. 

Kodjia and Fredericks (though obviously he came and went!) on permanent deals. Then Elliot Bennett, Simon Cox, Callum Robinson and Ben Hamer on loan. There may be others I've forgotten.

[NcnsBcfc]

18 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

All season Nige has been talking about a trimmer squad…now you know why.

Richard Gould stated we need to maximise every pound spent…that means try to move on those squad members not playing.

Nige (Manager) and Gould (CEO) aligned….is a good start.  It’s why Nige has been open about moving on players.  It won’t be easy though.

Both deserve some credit for taking on this challenge.  I trust them.  That’s not saying they will achieve, but I trust them to do the right thing.  I cannot say that about the previous CEO, and I think the “bad side” of LJ (he had good things too) was that he pushed and pushed for more and was allowed to do so.  Yeah, he had to sell players, but he got to invest a bloody big portion of that money (fees and wages), more than a sustainable model suggests he should have.

Well that's the end of any new contracts for Kalas, Bentley, COD, HNM and Martin in the summer then? Kalas, Bentley and HNM entering final year, so will still have some value.

Simply can't afford to get anywhere near either what they are currently on, or in the case of HNM & Bentley in particular what they will want. Can't afford just to write their value off either, like we did with Nagy.

Followed on by getting rid one way or another of KP,JD and Wells off the wage bill. Going to have to take a massive hit on their values just to get rid of them.

[Waconda]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Let’s see….not convinced by that.  Ours are down to a ridiculously high cost base.  There are a few that might be in the same boat, but FFP-wise many will be fine, because they have a cost base 40-60% of ours and it’s slightly easier to absorb.

Thats my guess anyway.  I’m not including Reading and Derby in that though.

Yep, wait and see but some seem to think we are alone in this.

Some clubs are worse and many are as bad.

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

Kodjia and Fredericks (though obviously he came and went!) on permanent deals. Then Elliot Bennett, Simon Cox, Callum Robinson and Ben Hamer on loan. There may be others I've forgotten.

Nathan Baker on loan too.  Liam Moore too, although he suffered a hernia and we never saw the best of him…he’s proved throughout his time he’s a top-Champ CB.

1 minute ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Well that's the end of any new contracts for Kalas, Bentley, COD, HNM and Martin in the summer then? Kalas, Bentley and HNM entering final year, so will still have some value.

Simply can't afford to get anywhere near either what they are currently on, or in the case of HNM & Bentley in particular what they will want. Can't afford just to write their value off either, like we did with Nagy.

Followed on by getting rid one way or another of KP,JD and Wells off the wage bill. Going to have to take a massive hit on their values just to get rid of them.

Think we have to understand that other clubs won’t necessarily be able to meet their wage demands either.  They will’ve seen Weimann take a 50% paycut (and Baker), amid interest elsewhere, so they will know the landscape has changed.

If it were me, I’d try to re-contract the ones you need to keep by either staggering their wage decrease, or smooth it through a longer term.

Not saying that will be easy, nor we might see some leave, but some players might realise that agent promises aren’t worth a lot currently.

Agree on last para 100%.

[Waconda]

5 hours ago, Fuber said:

Ultimately this 1000%.

No matter how free Ashton and LJ were with respect to wage spending. The buck to reign them in was with the Chairman, who is SL's own son, who clearly took his eye off the ball and let MA run roughshod over the operation.

The issue is, and it's been the same across the last 20 years, the sheer lack of competent direction and appointments from the top down.

You can have all the money in the world. But if it leaves the club unsustainable, in debt, and/or fails. It's not the owner who picks up the eventual bill in the end. It's the fans.

I'm actually doubtful. Reading and a handful of others, possibly, but I don't think many clubs were near our sheer level of ineptitude regarding wages to turnover.

There are many worse than us in regard wages to turn over - Preston for example I am fairly sure.

There must be a list on this ?

[NcnsBcfc]

2 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Nathan Baker on loan too.  Liam Moore too, although he suffered a hernia and we never saw the best of him…he’s proved throughout his time he’s a top-Champ CB.

Think we have to understand that other clubs won’t necessarily be able to meet their wage demands either.  They will’ve seen Weimann take a 50% paycut (and Baker), amid interest elsewhere, so they will know the landscape has changed.

If it were me, I’d try to re-contract the ones you need to keep by either staggering their wage decrease, or smooth it through a longer term.

Not saying that will be easy, nor we might see some leave, but some players might realise that agent promises aren’t worth a lot currently.

Agree on last para 100%.

I agree that other clubs might struggle. But we need to create room in our budget to recruit new players as well.

If the players coming into their last year aren't willing to negotiate; then we need to move them on.

As for COD and Martin. It'll be interesting as to where their offers might come from. A lot of money in L1 nowadays....

[Waconda]

9 minutes ago, NcnsBcfc said:

Well that's the end of any new contracts for Kalas, Bentley, COD, HNM and Martin in the summer then? Kalas, Bentley and HNM entering final year, so will still have some value.

Simply can't afford to get anywhere near either what they are currently on, or in the case of HNM & Bentley in particular what they will want. Can't afford just to write their value off either, like we did with Nagy.

Followed on by getting rid one way or another of KP,JD and Wells off the wage bill. Going to have to take a massive hit on their values just to get rid of them.

More of a case of running down those big contracts, nobody is going to pay enough in these times for those players to want to move.

Will take years, hence the reason the coaching staff have to get the very best out of what we have, we are where we are and it will be a slow process.

I think HNM may be a different case - IMO.

 

[Jerseybean]

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He signs it all off.  He’s culpable too….unless he had the wool pulled completely over his eyes by Ashton, in which case, that’s just as bad.

He’s done good stuff in propping up losses and building the ground and training facility, but he’s allowed reckless spending.  That imho does not let him off Scott-free!

Jeez I thought AS was part of the solution  

Sobering data which provides us all with the grim reality of the situation. Accounts and financial literacy aren’t really my bag but it is crystal-clear we are in deep trouble and the sustainable model is a total myth. While recognising that professional football is financially screwed and Covid has amplified and accelerated the problems we have to fundamentally address our situation.

Now that we all appreciate the seriousness of the situation I look forward to understanding and hearing from the Club how we will reduce our operating costs, wage bill and increase our revenue although it seems to me to be a total Catch 22. Forgive the massive over-simplification here - financial security means being in the Premiership, getting there, as we know, ain’t easy and FFP prevents Clubs chucking even more money at achieving promotion. Fans want to see entertaining and exciting football and will pay for that (sadly BCFC haven’t played much exciting/entertaining football for a number of seasons), furthermore, given that many Championship teams are of about the same ability tense games, decided by a narrow margin, are commonplace e.g. tense, edgy not exciting, entertaining. 

So the conundrum is to reduce costs while creating a team capable of promotion and providing entertaining, exciting football. May I (genuinely) be the first to wish our hierarchy the very best in addressing this.  Whatever happens, and despite the excellent and provocative posts in this thread about the nonsense of professional football and the freedom offered by the amateur game, I will be a City fan until the day I die (in case anyone is are wondering I’m still stuck in solitary in Brooklyn having returned a positive test result.)   

[Waconda]

Just now, NcnsBcfc said:

I agree that other clubs might struggle. But we need to create room in our budget to recruit new players as well.

If the players coming into their last year aren't willing to negotiate; then we need to move them on.

As for COD and Martin. It'll be interesting as to where their offers might come from. A lot of money in L1 nowadays....

You can't just "move them on" - you will literally be struggling to give them away or wait for the end of contract.

[Waconda]

2 minutes ago, Jerseybean said:

Jeez I thought AS was part of the solution  

Sobering data which provides us all with the grim reality of the situation. Accounts and financial literacy aren’t really my bag but it is crystal-clear we are in deep trouble and the sustainable model is a total myth. While recognising that professional football is financially screwed and Covid has amplified and accelerated the problems we have to fundamentally address our situation.

Now that we all appreciate the seriousness of the situation I look forward to understanding and hearing from the Club how we will reduce our operating costs, wage bill and increase our revenue although it seems to me to be a total Catch 22. Forgive the massive over-simplification here - financial security means being in the Premiership, getting there, as we know, ain’t easy and FFP prevents Clubs chucking even more money at achieving promotion. Fans want to see entertaining and exciting football and will pay for that (sadly BCFC haven’t played much exciting/entertaining football for a number of seasons), furthermore, given that many Championship teams are of about the same ability tense games, decided by a narrow margin, are commonplace e.g. tense, edgy not exciting, entertaining. 

So the conundrum is to reduce costs while creating a team capable of promotion and providing entertaining, exciting football. May I (genuinely) be the first to wish our hierarchy the very best in addressing this.  Whatever happens, and despite the excellent and provocative posts in this thread about the nonsense of professional football and the freedom offered by the amateur game, I will be a City fan until the day I die (in case anyone is are wondering I’m still stuck in solitary in Brooklyn having returned a positive test result.)   

Quality coaching and man management is essential, will need to develop what we have. In some ways exciting times.

[shelts]

We’ve been bailed out by Steve .