City release accounts - Ouch!

[Numero Uno]

5 hours ago, Hxj said:

The group headed by BCHL is used for FFP purposes.  So all income and losses of the companies within the group are taken into account when arriving at the loss before FFP adjustments.

St James Parade Limited is a now dissolved company that held some land.  So no impact on FFP as no costs.  However if it was a company that was not directly related to football activities then its results would be excluded from the FFP calculation.

The £500,000 or so losses incurred by BCWFCL are specifically excluded from the FFP calculation. 

Thanks for the explanation.

[ExiledAjax]

@Numero Uno This is a diagram showing how the Club, Rugby Club, and Bristol Sport are owned by Pula Sport. Pula Sport is the company registered in Guernsey that Steve and Maggie Lansdown own. 

You can see how Bristol City Holdings, which is the company that reports for financial reasons, sits above Bristol City Football Club and Ashton Gate Limited, and how the Women's club sits below the Men's club.

Holdings reports financials for the Group, and yes that incorporates the activity of the three active companies that sit beneath it. Any money that the Women's club needs comes through the Men's club from the Lansdowns via the pathway set out below. 

[Mr Popodopolous]

9 minutes ago, Numero Uno said:

And what we spend on the women's club goes through FFP in terms of the EFL's calculations?

It goes through the accounts but is excluded from FFP.

I make our total usual allowances for FFP in a typical year from say 2018/19, 2019/20 to be £5m.

Accounting profit or loss-£5m=FFP figure. Whole set of amendments for Covid.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

It goes through the accounts but is excluded from FFP.

An important distinction.

Pop, whilst we are on the subject - do you know why we are allowed to use Holdings for FFP reporting when it is Bristol City Football Club Limited that actually holds the membership to the EFL? I've been wondering this for a little while and can't find an answer.

Edited February 2, 2022 by ExiledAjax

[Davefevs]

34 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

An important distinction.

Pop, whilst we are on the subject - do you know why we are allowed to use Holdings for FFP reporting when it is Bristol City Football Club Limited that actually holds the membership to the EFL? I've been wondering this for a little while and can't find an answer.

Probably because the Holding Company has been used previously by other clubs (Spurs were the first I think - Irving Scholar days), and therefore a precedent set….whilst maybe SL thinks it’s an effective way to structure the business.

 

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, ExiledAjax said:

@Numero Uno This is a diagram showing how the Club, Rugby Club, and Bristol Sport are owned by Pula Sport. Pula Sport is the company registered in Guernsey that Steve and Maggie Lansdown own. 

You can see how Bristol City Holdings, which is the company that reports for financial reasons, sits above Bristol City Football Club and Ashton Gate Limited, and how the Women's club sits below the Men's club.

Holdings reports financials for the Group, and yes that incorporates the activity of the three active companies that sit beneath it. Any money that the Women's club needs comes through the Men's club from the Lansdowns via the pathway set out below. 

Ultimately, the origins of the complex layers mean that Bristol City football club own the Queen Victoria Public House in Albert Square and Steve Lansdown must be related to Danny Dyer and our first ever player was William The Conqueror, who we got on a Bosman* from the French club, Cherbourg.

I know this, because 'er indoors made me watch an episode of 'what can you claim to be' or something on the iPlayer and I think they had a similar family tree.

*Well, a free.

[CyderInACan]

45 minutes ago, Bristol Rob said:

Ultimately, the origins of the complex layers mean that Bristol City football club own the Queen Victoria Public House in Albert Square and Steve Lansdown must be related to Danny Dyer and our first ever player was William The Conqueror, who we got on a Bosman* from the French club, Cherbourg.

I know this, because 'er indoors made me watch an episode of 'what can you claim to be' or something on the iPlayer and I think they had a similar family tree.

*Well, a free.

I’d get back in the kitchen if I were you mate 

[P'head Red]

2 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

@Numero Uno This is a diagram showing how the Club, Rugby Club, and Bristol Sport are owned by Pula Sport. Pula Sport is the company registered in Guernsey that Steve and Maggie Lansdown own. 

You can see how Bristol City Holdings, which is the company that reports for financial reasons, sits above Bristol City Football Club and Ashton Gate Limited, and how the Women's club sits below the Men's club.

Holdings reports financials for the Group, and yes that incorporates the activity of the three active companies that sit beneath it. Any money that the Women's club needs comes through the Men's club from the Lansdowns via the pathway set out below. 

Who's the individual with the initials GM? 

[ExiledAjax]

16 minutes ago, P'head Red said:

Who's the individual with the initials GM? 

Gavin Marshall. Finance Director IIRC.

[Davefevs]

53 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Gavin Marshall. Finance Director IIRC.

Correct

[Hxj]

4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

Pula Sport is the company registered in Guernsey that Steve and Maggie Lansdown own.

Technically Pula Sport Ltd is owned by Pula Ltd, which is owned by the Lansdowns.  There is a bunch of companies registered in Guernsey with the Pula name.

Edited February 2, 2022 by Hxj

[Hxj]

4 hours ago, ExiledAjax said:

do you know why we are allowed to use Holdings for FFP reporting when it is Bristol City Football Club Limited that actually holds the membership to the EFL?

The regulations allow a club to nominate any company which is a member or any holding company which heads a group which includes the member.

[ExiledAjax]

10 minutes ago, Hxj said:

Technically Pula Sport Ltd is owned by Pula Ltd, which is owned by the Lansdowns.  There is a bunch of companies registered in Guernsey with the Pula name.

I had assumed/wondered that there would be further companies above it, and yes I know about Pula Aviation, and others, most of which are presumably not related to City.. Have you seen Pula Sport's register of shareholders then? TBH so far as City are concerned all that matters is the direct parent and the UBO(s). 

6 minutes ago, Hxj said:

The regulations allow a club to nominate any company which is a member or any holding company which heads a group which includes the member.

Thanks!

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Have you seen Pula Sport's register of shareholders then?

Nope - but looking at Holdings accounts and the PSC details for the company on Companies House - the only possible solution is that SL owns 75% and ML owns 25% of Pula Limited.

[ExiledAjax]

1 minute ago, Hxj said:

Nope - but looking at Holdings accounts and the PSC details for the company on Companies House - the only possible solution is that SL owns 75% and ML owns 25% of Pula Limited.

Yeh, the PSC stuff is interesting. Suggests to me that ultimately there's a company,(possibly Pula Ltd) which has issued different classes of shares to Steve and Maggie. Steve is said to have 75% or more voting rights, 75% or more ownership and the right to appoint and remove director, whereas Maggie simply has ownership of between 25% and 50% of the shares.

It's presumably a precise 25/75 split as you say, but I expect Maggies are Ordinary  non-voting and Steve's are Ordinary voting (or whatever they've named the classes).

[Hxj]

3 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

It's presumably a precise 25/75 split as you say, but I expect Maggies are Ordinary  non-voting and Steve's are Ordinary voting (or whatever they've named the classes).

I'm sure she's devastated!

[Pezo]

I thought this was a good explanation that somewhat aligns except the money flows the other way!

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

On 02/02/2022 at 07:52, Port Said Red said:

I won't quote you @Mr Popodopolous due to the length of your posts, but just to say that the reason I am thinking Worst Case is because of the that Richard Gould has pushed for changes. I think if we were safe enough he would just be sitting back and letting others make waves.

Thanks for that- probably wise given the length!

Worst case is equivalent to an 11 point deduction, albeit probably one back for Year 2 to Year 3 seeing losses fall.

It might also be like a Reading settlement with 5-6 points initially and the remainder suspended subject to varied conditions.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Mr Popodopolous]

As it goes, maybe slightly less bad

9 points based on the tariff for Sheffield Wednesday overspend, perhaps 1 back for improving losses.

Still not great though as it supposes we make £2m in wage savings this summer through most of the out of contract leaving and sign nobody. It'd be before new additions. New additions obviously would only add to the losses/the hole without player sales or a Kelly or Webster windfall.

Edited February 6, 2022 by Mr Popodopolous

[Davefevs]

2 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

As it goes, maybe slightly less bad

9 points based on the tariff for Sheffield Wednesday overspend, perhaps 1 back for improving losses.

Still not great though as it supposes we make £2m in wage savings this summer through most of the out of contract leaving and sign nobody. It'd be before new additions. New additions obviously would only add to the losses/the hole without player sales or a Kelly or Webster windfall.

What the aim should be is to see revenues increase and costs decrease.

I think there might need to be a fresh approach to season ticket sales.  Need to pack out AG and reap footfall of the food and drinks stalls…even though some won’t ever do that.  I think ticket prices need to come down.