Silvio Dante

Not getting at you. But Manning has precisely no history of getting results over a longer term. His best results actually came instantly at MK Dons after taking over Russell Martin’s side in August. Given time, and the chance to build his own squad, they ended up in the relegation zone (acknowledging they lost Twine but a good coach absorbs that loss without that tailspin), There is no “fact of the matter” that Manning won’t get instant results but will on long term. In fact, on the limited history the inverse is actually true and I wish people would stop stating proveably incorrect statements as fact,

Tbf mate I was more using the phrase as an “in” to the general point. I know you’re more balanced than most and understand the game, and won’t blindly say “this is great” or “this is crap”. My point was more that there is a very polarised opinion here currently - Nige is gone, nothing changes that but there is a swell of Nige good - LM bad or vice versa. What I’m saying is purely on evidence from here and elsewhere (with no comparison to Nige) that Liam is more poor than good thus far across the board. It’s possible we have made a bad call, and for the good of the club, I’d rather address that sooner than later as opposed to putting my faith in hope. (This isn’t me calling for his head - this is just me saying this is the reality of where we are)

With apologies to @Harry… Backwards. That’s the word that kept running through my head tonight. Liams had five weeks, and the performance was the worst yet, following on from a poor Huddersfield game. Today, we got back in that game through a very Nige setup goal. As we did Saturday. In fact, second half Manningball went out of the window - as Nakhi said on Robins TV it was basketball, and that played to our strengths. On the match thread early doors I commented that we left spaces between our defence and midfield lines. The goal came from that. If I could see it then it was obvious, so why couldn’t LM? The truth here is this. Over 5 (6 games if you count QPR) we’ve regressed. The managers game plan is figured out earlier each game, and we get found out earlier as a result. The fiction here is this. Manning, given time, hasn’t got a history of building sides. He took over an oven ready MK Dons side and when he made his own signings they got relegated. Manning has no history of bringing through youth. He’s not brought through academy at Oxford or Dons. There is no record. There is no evidence. There is no huge reason to suspect he is a quality coach. Thats not to say he might not be. But right now, it’s a fiction. And the truth is 5 points from 6 games and our worst run of the season.

Ironically that was also the case for the goal against Huddersfield. Playing to a teams strengths works. Funny that.

And that is the essence of the issue IMO. Hes a textbook coach. He can tell you in theory what works, but when it stops working he’s bereft. It’s why he couldn’t pull out of a tailspin at MK Dons. It’s why we keep not being able to turn games around. He has to date positively no in game awareness. And when there are two coaches, that’s a pretty bloody glaring weakness.

Thanks Yoda.

Yes, that Pep. Who could buy any player he wants. Yet still realises he had to adapt his style at every club initially to the players he had. Your point being?

Yep. Even Pep has (slightly) tailored his approach per club. Enforcing a way of playing when you don’t have the players to play that way is moronic.

And I think a contribution to the goal. If I can see it, if you can see it, I’d be damn sure Jon-Dahl Tomasson or any coach worth his salt at this level can see it. And thus far, ours can’t see that they see it (RIP Matthew Perry) and hasn’t shown an ability to combat accordingly. As I said a few games ago, sides are sussing us earlier as Mannings reign progresses. Was always going to happen as the element of surprise was removed.

Few times already Blackburn found spaces between the defensive and midfield lines. Defenders not advancing/midfield not dropping. One to keep an eye on

Nor does saying “We are playing well for 90 (or even 60) minutes” make sense under Manning. Hopefully that changes tonight.

As a forums a place for rampant speculation I was wondering similar. Hes now been benched 3/6 games under Manning - was our best player in the game immediately before the appointment, was MOM vs Boro and did fine in his other two starts. Is also an accomplished ball retainer and can create so you’d think Manning would think of him as his type of player. I wonder whether Manning has earmarked the funds for elsewhere. I would, however, be hard pressed to think we’d get a better profile signing age and experience wise than TGH. I’d be very disappointed if he wasn’t made permanent but the more he’s benched the less the chances of that - hopefully it’s just a case of Williams did better than LM anticipated and deserved to keep the shirt (but not sure TGH deserved to lose it by the same token!)

Thought this was going to be a thread about the (ahem) activities of Michael McIndoe and Andy Llewellyn…

Don’t get me wrong, I don’t think they’d be looking to get rid in January unless we lost the next six (and even then I’m not sure they would). I do think, however, that a low to middling next six games may make them consider if they want to open up the funding, or just go to seasons end to give them a larger sample size. Jon and Brian are not the sharpest tools, but I don’t think they’d just throw money (considering where we were) if there were signs it wasn’t working. The advantage of holding funding to season end is also threefold: - It proves if Liam can make progress with this group of players - It allows them to see ST sales - which they’ll see as a far more fan opinion metric than anything on a forum - It allows them to save some face - ie prove that the funding wasn’t there for any manager. I don’t see Liam losing his job in January - let me be clear on that! I do see a few scenarios as to how we play the window based on the games until then though.

The question becomes that if there isn’t improvement in the short term whether there is continued justification in hoping for medium term success, when that hasn’t been delivered to date in Liams career (Simply no data - he’s been in jobs 18 and 12 months respectively and in the 18 month one it got worse as opposed to better) Let’s give a scenario - in the 6 games left this year we take 5-7 points. We’re effectively then out of any promotion race - still highly unlikely to go down - and it’s a return of 10-12 points from 11 games at what most are comfortable is a fair review point. This place is polarised, but both sides of the argument agree Nige was withheld funds because the board didn’t consider he was the right man long term (and that’s a totally reasonable position to take). If Liam is sitting on less or around 1ppg with probable increased dissatisfaction at that point, do they consider it’s worth cracking the nest egg - I.e. is he then still considered the right man to spend it, or do they hold it for the next candidate? Of course, get c10 points (or even 18) from the next 6 and I’ve no doubt they crack it open in January to accelerate the process. But I don’t think it can be underestimated how important the next six games are in the context of how much latitude Manning is given to reshape the squad, and therefore be here for the lions share of that contract.

Just watched. I’m not sure there’s anything in that interview majorly either positive or negative - it’s a pretty standard post match interview (not helped by Dave Barton again and running through his tick list of questions as opposed to reacting to the answers). I refer you to my prior comment about overly psycho analysing bull…!

To give some balance here, Kal was on Robins TV Saturday and he sounded more than contractually obligated to be enthused with Manning, so I can also believe that Tommys in that boat. It’s clearly positive if the players like him and are buying into him. To be honest, I wouldn’t expect anything less as there aren’t any poor characters in the group. (I think I made this point pre Manning on a thread “How will the players react”). Two other things are undoubtedly equally true - that, as has been said, players will be positive (and sometimes overly) about a new boss as they want to play. But as there was some real psycho analysing bull about Tommys demeanour post Nige, I’d be reticent to swing the other way on an EP interview. Secondly, even if the players like LM it means diddly if we don’t get performances or results. I’d rather they hated him and we won! Bottom line is there was a post earlier saying that people were jumping on anything LM said and using it as an excuse to be negative. This is a prime example of going the other way and it’s starting a fight on an empty room. It’s an interesting (but largely expected) interview - no more, no less.

I’ve never been as sure of a relegation as I was under Holden that season, and it came to a head in the Huddersfield game. How we won that game still bemuses me as we were absolutely battered, and it was that game that made up my mind he had to go ironically as it was a win. But the die was cast a long time prior to that - just off the top of my head in addition to the factors you mention that start of season run was luck in the extreme. We were outplayed most games - from sneaking the 2-1 over Cov game one to an unbelievable performance from Bentley at Forest to a one minute performance at Cardiff that we miraculously won. We were getting wins we had no right to, and it was no shock when we regressed to the results the performances merited. Wonderful Human. But as those stats prove, shit liar and more importantly, a bloody abysmal manager.

Quite. And what you’d have to say is that he either has insane self belief in himself to take this job or is totally delusional. Similar to the “due diligence” piece most of us appreciate that to get Manning to get City playing his way effectively (if it is even achieved) will take some time in reality. If you overlay that fact against the average time a manager at this level gets doesn’t give that time and the raised expectations from those dumbasses pronouncements it looks every inch a poisoned chalice. I don’t have sympathy as he chose to drink from it. But he certainly appears to have jumped at a club whose squad isn’t a natural fit for him when he could have moved for a better fit. Hopefully he just liked - and can achieve - the challenge

To be fair, if he raised concerns to Jon Lansdown I can’t think of anyone more qualified to comment on medical matters and as such I’m satisfied.

Good post, and I do think LM is a victim here of the board. I think what is going on though it is happening both ways - as an example it was stated last week that it was likely Manning would have done due diligence and that was jumped on by people who sit more on the positive side as criticism of him. Thats just a mad scenario where debate is stifled. Im not sure we’ll, for a long time, get away from what the board said in relation to LM. Hes not what was said they wanted - that doesn’t make him bad but it does make it more difficult for him as he’s effectively been asked to deliver against expectations that aren’t realistic. I’m sitting very much on the sceptical side of LM at the moment - I’m unconvinced he’s the right man for the job and that’s based on both what I’ve seen so far and track record to date on a lot of things. By the same token, I’m not going to jump on everything - I think he’s been right not to play Yeboah and also to separate the first team in training as I said on that thread earlier. I see a bit of a textbook coach who to date has been unadaptable and unconvincing in games - hopefully that changes soon. The problem is that when you point something out that could be construed as negative it again gets over stonewalled as opposed to debated -for example I called the poor second halves after Soton, was given facepalms and then LM himself acknowledged it! I think we need to get away from a place where any criticism of how we’re playing, or how LM is doing, is overly divisive and seen as wanting him to fail. It’s not - it’s debate. Against that I do think there has been too much negativity against LM and it’s the line between debate and abuse. The hope I have at the moment is as follows. One, and most importantly, we lose this bloody ownership. Secondly, as we all do - that he succeeds. But equally, I am unsure at the moment he’s the man to give the nest egg to and I don’t think there’s anything wrong in that position.

“We’ll explore all avenues to get the right person for the job” said technical director Ricky Martin I’m guessing from that they’re going to be looking upside - inside - out….

It’s probably just because they’re nicknamed “The Potters” he feels a natural fit. Same reason why this is the favourite for Joeys next job. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/FC_Cuntum

And as I think I said when Duff was sacked, I’d imagine he’s probably kicking himself that he didn’t wait for that opportunity. His best spell of management was taking over a Russell Martin squad (in August when pre season done) who were used to the style of football, or a variant thereof, that LM likes. He’d have had that at Swansea as most of the Martin team remain - and more pertinently, that fanbase would both welcome him as a “continuation” candidate and he wouldn’t have the boards batshit statements to have to live up to.

What I would say is that if he doesn’t use the academy (and I say that with the caveat that I understand the current approach, finances improving, dependent on ability etc) then it’s another cross against what was sold. We know it’s not front foot attacking football (whatever that is!), we know it’s not pushing on this squad to success as it’s not set up for LM (so he needs his own players/time to reshape) and then if it’s also not developing young players then it’s hard to say any part of the statements on his appointment are true. We seem to end up in that place one heck of a lot recently!