firstdivision

5 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Yep, fair points, from a trending up position, we are slightly trending down at the mo’…although 2 wins in 4 is a nice plateau.  We are a very gentle log-flume ride at the mo’….no rapids yet, no big chain assisted rise to the peak.

No arguments there.

I think if you took the same approach for all 23 other clubs, ie put their best 18 on paper, we are about “where we are”.  I think you’d be surprised how competitive a lot of other Championship squads are!  Experience isn’t the be-all and end-all, power and pace is better imho.

Yep, two wins in four or seven points from eight games, which is relegation form. Depends how you look at it. Although I’m sure the fans of Huddersfield, Cardiff, Boro, Stoke, Blackpool, and Wigan will also be fretting. 
I think Cov and WBA will be fine. 
 

17 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Today, I think the subs were being lined up after a poor opening 5 minutes of the second half, and probably based on the logic of - we aren’t looking sharp, players had a hard night on Tuesday, I wrote in my notes at 50 mins “sloppy start to 2nd half from both sides”.  Williams had just not got onto a ball from Scott on the counter which led to the first of two corners from where they scored. He was probably waiting to see how far into the game he could go.  Semenyo and Wells had quiet games.  Seemed reasonable subs in the circumstances, but looked panicky as we conceded whilst they were being readied.  That happens.

There’s no way this squad goes from where it was to pushing for a playoff as “meeting expectations”.  That would be a huge over-achievement.  From last season and the ins and outs I think 16th and upwards is realistic (into the middle 8), 13th and upwards a good “stretch target” for end of season.  That’s taking into account our financial position, squad ability, etc.  We will have to adjust as we go into and out of January too.  Who knows what might happen following WC and the Jan window.

I would take 13th - 16th. My concern is that the poor performances are stacking up and the bottom three is not as far away as our (false) 12th position suggests. Look at the points and games in hand, not at the position.

It's a weird league this year with so many quite even teams. That could spell big danger for one or two clubs who might not have gone down in a more normal season. We'll see. Be nice to get a couple of wins before the WC break. A poor four games and we'll have a month of fretting. I know I will be.

This league is mad. And unpredictable. Only two teams have lost more than Blackburn and they are top (won nine, lost seven).

I’ll be interested to see the mood around the club if we get done twice on the road this week. Also, we have six very tricky games before the World Cup break. Our more ‘favourable’ streak of games has just come to an end. 

4 hours ago, cidercity1987 said:

We arent a terrible Champ team but there arent any/many this season.

Relegation fight on the cards I think

This is the potential problem. As many as three teams might end up feeling a little hard done by to finish below the dots. 

1 hour ago, Better Red said:

Not brought this topic about for about 2 years.

But sadly Nothing has changed.

JD - Can’t beat a man, can’t cross.

Sykes - Can beat a man but chooses to come inside not even his position.

Both are useless and offer nothing going forward or at the back.

We would be better going 4 at the back and getting an extra man in midfield.

Vyner can play RB and Pring at LB and just let them overlap when it’s right to do so.

Both have pace both better defenders. Height wise they are better for defending.

2 from 3 in the middle - Kalas, Klose or Atkinson.

Naismith should be pushed into midfield he is the best passer in the team and can also defend not sure why that won’t work.

Play him with Williams or James 

Play Seymenyo and Wiemann wide in a 4 and they can take turns to join Wellls.

Scott in the whole

Wells upfront.

And Bentley in goal - I am an anti - Maxer.

If we had decent wingbacks then fair enough but we don’t so why do we play with wingbacks if we don’t have them….

You make a good general point about our lack of wing backs. 

Mark Sykes is starting to look an emperor's new clothes player to me. Silvio Dante's description of him being 'just there' is an excellent way of expressing something that's been rattling around in my head for a few weeks. Let's hope he can change that growing impression. 

If you come that far for the ball, you have to get it (catch or punch). Seems pretty simple to me.

I actually think MO has been excellent since his recall (apart from that, admittedly, key moment).

Performance: poor.
Mitigating factors: the injuries to Klose and Kalas disrupted us + Millwall had a free week. We looked flat, especially in the first half. 
Milllwall: an average but organised team with a clear way of playing - a set-piece team. 
The immediate future: getting Kalas, Naismith and James back will give us some options. 
Winter prognosis: unpredictable, concerning, potentially bleak. 
Manager: no cash for a change. But would he still be here if we did have?  
Defending set pieces: hopeless, embarrassing. 
Tuesday night: well, we always concede 3 or 4 at West Brom. 
Prediction: we won’t be far above the relegation zone by the World Cup break.

Great result obvs. But the determination was there tonight. 
We’ll lose games in this league but we must not lose them like we did at Birmingham. 

46 minutes ago, Sheltons Army said:

Considering his regular employments and pay offs , I’d love to know what his average annual income would be over the last 10-15 years , probably more than Klopp or Pep

Clever strategy really

As the late Tommy Doherty said: 'A good contract and a bad team, and you're made for life.'

31 minutes ago, Superjack said:

No problem with people wailing and gnashing teeth at yesterday's performance. I was one of them.

But it was pretty much our only truly woeful performance so far this season (granted Coventry wasn't brilliant either). People doom-mongering for the season and starting threads about Chris Wilder is just ridiculous.

In a league where, as you say, all 24 teams are competitive, it ain't gonna go right every week.

As I said, people react emotionally. It’ll calm down (well, possibly ). A 3-0 defeat like that away to Birmingham on the back of four without a win is going to get some people’s beans jumping. 
 

3 hours ago, Superjack said:

That's where we will likely finish. And most would be happy with that this season.

We will have good patches. We will have bad patches.

We weren't promotion contenders when we were sat in third place, and we aren't going down just because we are sat in eighteenth.

Some people just need to calm the **** down.

Not for one moment did I think we were promotion contenders. But I can see a scenario (mainly injuries) where we can get sucked into relegation trouble.
I wish I had your certainty and I hope you are right. But it’s a season in which all 24 Championship clubs are competitive. Three are going to be very disappointed. And one of them might have 50 points. 

Also, I think a bit of wailing and gnashing of teeth is inevitable after yesterday. It brought back horrible memories of last season. And the season before. People care and hated what they saw. Emotion - as well as the need for calm heads - is part of football supporting. 

16 hours ago, Davefevs said:

He got conned all afternoon didn’t he?  I find those refs so frustrating, they spoil football matches.

Yep, one of those ‘everything is a foul’ refs. Utterly tedious. Means players just go down the whole time. Constantly breaks up the game. 

The other thing that spoiled the match - apart from the obvious from our perspective  - was the lack of a crowd in the lower tiers. Took ages to get the ball back when it went out, also slowed the game down. 

Added to the frustration on a truly dire afternoon. 

11 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Think we are in a difficult position with having players on wages too high for the current climate, and no player is realistically gonna take a pay cut until they really have to…which in some cases will be next summer.  And they’ll take their chances on which club will be the best fit for them - which £££s being a big factor.

So, we are left in an uncertain position re squad, and can’t really plan.  It’s a ball ache.

If we just assume for the mo’, Scott and Semenyo stay for another season, we are in for another summer of scrimping in the market, maybe some low value fees for lower-waged players…but it doesn’t get you very excited does it?

I think you are right, there are several players where you really think they are much of a muchness with potential players we could bring in.  Nor is it greatly balanced, even ages are young and old, little in between. I wonder if that is why Nige is talking about how important recruitment is.

Its just one big compromise at the mo….not sure I see that changing either!

Once we start to lose the players that we brought in on decent money from decent clubs - when we were able to - then we will most likely be fishing for players at a lower grade (see Tanner, Atkinson, Sykes and Wilson) out of financial necessity. As you say, if the recruitment isn’t spot on and doesn’t pick up a couple of hat rabbits (eg someone like Albert), we could be in big trouble. And that’s if we’re not already in L1, which I wouldn’t rule out. 

Btw, I noticed that Birmingham had five loan players in their starting line-up yesterday. If he’s still here, NP might have to go there a bit to find some quality next summer. I know he’s said he’s open to a loan now, which is sensible and pragmatic. I don’t particularly like having loads of them, and it will be interesting to see how they serve Birmingham as the season goes on, but sometimes you have to go there. 

6 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Referring to in the context of this season, okay we've had one or two below par games so far but this really was a step back today from what I've been told.

Some of those weren't quite as bad as you say, Millwall away was a narrow loss at a decent side with a dodgy penalty against. Fulham away Semenyo was great and yes 6-2 is bad but was it a 6-2 game?

Had some useful phases at Blackpool but still bad yes, Swansea was poor in the end and probably mostly tbh.

I remember coming away from the Millwall game, Mr P, and thinking I felt sorry for all the fans that travelled from Bristol. In fact, I might have written something to that effect here. We barely created anything. The score line was close but it was still a wretched evening and pointed in the direction of a season of excruciating struggle. 

Same with Blackpool. Outmuscled and out thought. Wells’ late goal gave the score line a very patchy coat of gloss.

All the games I mentioned were a variation of dire. Yesterday’s game was right up there with them. An awful performance against team with only 13 points before the game and that had played at Boro on Wednesday night. 

1 hour ago, RSW8 said:

Just got back. I’m normally pretty level headed when it comes to city but my overriding emotion today is that was a waste of time and money. I have no problem travelling and spending money to see city lose, we’ve all done it enough times. 
 

My problem is when I question desire and attitude. We were second best to every first and second ball today and started off flat as a pancake. We all know Birmingham are quite a direct and physical team and you have to match that first and foremost. Far too many players didn’t fancy it today and couldn’t wait to get off the pitch. 
 

Speaking to a few Birmingham fans after the game they were surprised how passive we were and weak defensively especially for a team managed by Nigel Pearson.

Embarrassing performance today. Could easily have been 5 or 6 in the end as we waved the white flag.

Perfect summary (although Birmingham fans obviously haven't been paying any attention at all when it comes to the weak defensively and Nigel Pearson bit. We've become used to it over the past 18 months. Not that he's to blame in any way, of course.)

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Think he might’ve been referring to those who stayed on at h-t, not necessarily all 90.

FWIW I though Dasilva was crap, I thought Massengo was and Sykes too…and I mean in terms of putting in the required effort today.

Conway and Wells were tactical….they were neither good nor bad, they had no service to prove that one way or the other.

I thought a couple of others were poor, but not from lack of effort though.

That's exactly how I saw it.

I'd have made seven changes at half-time: Moller for Bentley; Kalas, Merrick and Hunter for the back three; Barnard and Sweeney for the wing backs; Gow for Massengo. Might have considered Andy Cole for Wells or Conway, but forward players weren't necessarily the problem.

Think I heard roughly the same interview last season after Blackpool (a), West From (a), Millwall (a) Birmingham (a), Coventry (a), Sheffield United (a), Barnsley (a), Swansea (a), Forest (a). Those performances were all variations on dire. My particular 'favourites' were conceding three times in the second half against ten men v Coventry and, er, a 3-0 defeat at Birmingham.  

I sincerely hope today was a 2022-23 outlier. If not, we're in for a long winter. 

Our fans "must be thinking... 'what the hell was that?' " Certainly are.

But it's not as if we  haven't seen it all before, Nige: most games in your first season. Last season:  Blackpool (a), West From (a), Millwall (a) Birmingham (a), Coventry (a), Sheffield United (a), Barnsley (a), Swansea (a), Forest (a). Yes, I saw them all. (I didn't see Fulham (a) but we did lose 6-2.).

He makes it sound like something unusual.

I was extremely sceptical when I saw some fans saying we’re good enough for the top six. You’ve only got to see how easily we concede (and our small squad) to conclude we were always far more likely to be battling to avoid being sucked into a relegation fight. 

I hope we we’ll be ok. We were missing a few today. But this is going to be a brutal Championship this season - no obviously dire sides. All competitive. Capable of a result. So are we. But a couple of teams (perhaps three) are going to think they’re a bit unlucky to go down. I hope it’s not us. 

Today’s performance, though, was a relegation performance. 18th, I see. 

6 hours ago, Davefevs said:

…and getting used to playing with Wells. Partnerships can take time. I don’t think they’ve ever (rarely) started a match together in a two!  They played left and right of Martin under Holden when he went 433 in 20/21. 

Indeed.

Having said all that, I thought he looked dangerous in the first half. Nearly scored one (from Wells' cross) and nearly created one with a cross (for Wells). It's not an exact science, is it?

3 minutes ago, BLRed said:

Half wonder if he is working at 50-75% capacity due to World Cup. Was dropping too deep and not constantly pressing as is expected from our style of play

He didn’t have a pre-season and that was his first start. He’s still building his match fitness and getting his general sharpness back. It’s not like flicking a switch. 

22 minutes ago, stephenkibby. said:

Good start to the season again will probably keep us in good stead.

There is no way we will trouble the top 6. 

Were so far off challenging wele finnish 6 or 7 places outside the drop.

I agree. Far more likely. 

Ten games gone. We’ve all had a look. Who are the three teams you think will be promoted; who are the teams you think will go down? 
Relegation seems much harder to predict for me. Birmingham? Huddersfield? Blackpool? I always start the season with the question: who are the (three) teams we’ll definitely finish above? So you can do that one if you like. 
Promotion: three from Sheffield United, Watford, Burnley and Norwich. 

9 minutes ago, pongo88 said:

If they don’t play Wednesday and Saturday then they play Saturday and Tuesday. The gap is the same 

Not sure of the maths there. Tuesday night is roughly the mid point between Saturday and Saturday. If you finish at ten to five on a Saturday, you have three days (72 hours approx) to recover. If you play Tuesday night, you have a little more than 72 hours to recover for the next game. 

(And pease don't say 'they are well-paid professional footballers, they should be able to play every day of the week if required'. You can't pay a body to recover.)