Olé

Correlation does not equal causation. It has absolutely nothing to do with COVID, it's obviously down to how much our abysmal home form now gives even the quietest away fans a lease of life, particularly when given their obligatory 90th minute booster. I saw every incident you mentioned* and it was largely that, and the contrast is more obvious now that our fans trudge away in Lowry painting levels of depression at this repeated shit show. Pre-COVID as boring as home performances could be they weren't as consistently awful and we weren't consistently miserable and disaffected leaving games, and the two pre-COVID home fixtures that were fun for away fans - getting hammered 4-0 by Brentford on New Years Day and getting hammered 4-0 by WBA - no one begrudges the away side, a lot of City had gone home before full time, and Brentford at least aren't going to act up. *Gobby Fulham fans were an anomaly as it was just some kids in replica shirts who obviously had their first ever beers and were heading back to the pick up point with mum and dad looking forward to being driven home.

But in respect of Mark Ashton there is plenty you can and should do for a bloke who was taking £450k out of the club every year. Directors and senior employees typically have non-solicitation clauses in their contracts which exist for a reason to stop a mass grab of staff by departing leaders and are much more enforceable than non-compete clauses. Happily, as @billywedlock alludes to, it's probably the case that we didn't care about the people he's hijacked. Mark is building himself quite an empire at Portman Road. The Americans must be absolutely lapping up the BS. Might get in contact with them myself to tell them about my royal uncle in Nigeria who needs to get his wealth out of the country.

In my day at Halloween we did 'penny for the guy' but then Mark Ashton came along and paid £3.5m for guy - a player made entirely of papier mache, cardboard and old school clothes. Guy managed just five minutes in the first team over two seasons before being given a free transfer to MK Dons.

Fair cop, you've got me bang to rights Dave. I am a football snob. I like possession, I especially like consistently good passing and movement. The vast majority of successful sides exhibit an ability to control the football and the game. I do hope for that kind of football - not just because of the perception of quality, but even just because we're force fed a diet of Robins Uncut #1-29 videos showing us practicing well drilled one or two touch passing moves or even training drills specifically designed to reward possession. And then we go into the real thing and appear fairly limited in our ability to put it together. Your points are all well made - Peterborough are much worse off than us, yes; and we used to lose to teams who perceptibly played much worse and more scrappy football than us, yes; but it's been so long since I remember feeling confident about City getting the ball down and passing it with quality that I am jealous when I see supposedly inferior teams finding it much easier to put together good fluid football. We actually have footballing defenders - Kalas run yesterday was sensational. I think of a number of our players as good footballers. But as you say elsewhere - we're direct and we struggle with the ball. I'm quite content winning ugly but it's pointless coming on here to write gushing praise about the performance itself unless the football warrants it. And I'll savour it even more when they do put it all together.

Well that escalated quickly! Describing the match and enjoying the match are two completely different things. My head nearly came off when Martin scored the winner, don't think for one minute I didn't enjoy the moment. We're also creating more chances than the prior two seasons, and the team look more committed and is working far harder than some of the performances that passed players by during Covid. But let's not re-write fixtures because of the results. We were battered by QPR and yesterday I thought Peterborough looked far better on the ball, pass and move, working clever combinations. Our assistant manager even alluded to it in his post match interview. What was frustrating was that we repeatedly stood off them right to the very end - and could not produce the same quality. We were quite direct for a slow side without pace or runners, and other than two times we got O'Dowda to the byline in the first half, we only posed any threat in the second half from free kicks. We didn't work anything from open play, yet Peterborough kept passing, retaining the ball and plugging away at us - not great given how easily we'd already let them create their first two goals. After Wednesday's non-event at Millwall we were 5 minutes from having no answer for an ex-League One side. It took a moment of sheer bloody minded desire from Williams to create a winner. That was a brilliant release for us all - but not sure why I should suddenly re-write the City performance. Perhaps it looks different on Robins TV, but on quality of football we were second best. It's a great thing we are playing badly and winning games. It's a good platform for us to work towards producing real levels of quality passing/possession that will get us through tougher games.

In monsoon like conditions at Peterborough, depleted City followed up the disappointing loss at Millwall by being largely second best to their promoted opponents, standing off a succession of attacks and never matching the hosts' pass and move - yet somehow Joe Williams contrived a barnstorming late Chris Martin winner against the run of play. The visitors gave their former League One hosts acres of space on either flank and so could have few complaints when one time City misfit Sammy Szmodics punished them. Led by Calum O'Dowda's wing play they got level from a corner and then went in front in a rare passing move - sealed by George Tanner drilling home a rebounded effort. But Sam Szmodics again took advantage of stand off defending to level and the visitors rarely looked likely to threaten during a one-sided second half - only for Williams to turn the game on its head in front of the massed ranks of traveling supporters, bundling past defenders and slipping it inside to Martin, who steered home an explosive late winner. Played in torrential rain it was Posh who had started the brighter through Szmodics down the left, regularly probing their opponents - though on 6 minutes O'Dowda got in behind onto a left wing through ball, only to square it just behind Matty James with defenders racing back out of position, the hosts in the end bundling the loose ball out for a corner. It wasn't until a couple of minutes past the quarter hour that Andi Weimann held up the ball before running it goalward, slipping it right to Williams, whose cross was cut back from beyond the far post by O'Dowda, who in turn laid it into James path, only for City's energetic midfielder to loop a shot high and wide with time to threaten the host defence. But on 21 minutes Peterborough made their more purposeful attacking movement count. An early ball down the left channel was easy for Harrison Burrows to control and lay off for Szmodics to run on from the edge of the box and curl an early looping shot past Dan Bentley and into the top corner - giving the home side an early lead in the pouring rain. City's best spell of passing came midway in the half - a patient wing to wing move saw Martin and Tanner combine out right before spreading cross field via King, who released O'Dowda to the byline on the left, his cross cut out with Weimann ready to finish. Pring on the left then jinked past defenders into the box, going down claiming for a penalty. After the half hour a left wing free kick was miscontrolled by Weimann but winning City several corners - from which O'Dowda's set piece met Rob Atkinson rising highest at the far post to send a bullet header into the top corner for the equaliser. Yet once again City stood off the hosts, Szmodics and Burrows given room to threaten from the channels. So it was a surprise when the visitors stole in front inside 40 minutes. A rare break saw James steal in from the left and square to Martin to apply the finish, but his tame shot was blocked and rebounded out to full back Tanner who drilled a low cross shot into the bottom corner. A first goal for the club in his fourth game since rising from League Two. City ended the half again repelling chances from the Peterborough left, and an overload saw the Posh work the ball inside Williams and Tanner via Dan Butler - who lifted it into Szmodics at close range who this time was able to steer a header into the far corner. At the break a deep City free kick led to head tennis in the box before Martin headed wide. After the restart the damp October weather had by now deteriorated into torrential rain that made it almost unplayable - although Williams early header forced a diving save from a deep James free kick, while at the other end Oliver Norburn took aim from 25 yards onto the bar and Nathan Thompson fired wide after Pring's slip up on the right. City's only chances were coming from set pieces and another deep free kick saw the team breaking the lines in numbers, scorer Atkinson glancing the ball inside for Martin to head down and force a close range save. On the hour City highlighted their futile play as a patient passing move saw no runners in behind and retreated back to halfway. Alex Scott replaced O'Dowda as the biblical weather made the match harder and harder to perform in - indeed despite the home side repeatedly probing it was Williams being put clear onto a long ball down the right at the midpoint of the second half that threatened more - only for the exhausted midfielder to badly overhit a low cross beyond teammates. Heading into the last ten Peterborough were seeing all of the ball but City were creating the clearer chances. Martin forced another diving save with a flicked header following a Williams cross, then Tomas Kalas produced a stunning run - bringing it down in defence and racing upfield to beat the entire Posh defence, only to miss Martin with his centre. So City had sounded a warning and despite being largely against the run of play they'd storm into a decisive lead a minute later and right in front of their fans. All action Williams bundled the ball past defenders and slipped it to Martin who curled home. Pandemonium in the away corner as City players, second best much of the day, celebrated with fans. Before the end Bentley had to pull off a fine save to tip wide a free kick heading for the top corner following Burrows apparent dive. The keeper would need lengthy treatment in injury time as the Posh piled on the pressure - but City hung on and claimed their fourth away win in six trips, an improbable return from a poor performance in Bentley 7 Crucial save at the end Tanner 7 Took goal well, threw himself at everything at the end, Szmodics caused him problems though Pring 6 One or two slips but generally solid and great driving fun first half Kalas 7 Stunning run towards the end, never stops, probably showed Posh forwards too much respect when they ran the channels Atkinson 7 Really well taken goal and some important flick ons from other set pieces James 6 Some great set piece delivery but never really got hold of midfield for the quality of opposition King 6 Probably shaded it over James and was a marked improvement over Bakinson - ran out of steam later on Williams 7 Easily our best player in a poor performance - never stopped battling and trying to find space to pass or run O'Dowda 6 Our biggest threat first half with some well timed runs and drilled crosses but got injured and came off early Weimann 4 Nothing came off for him, didn't link well with anyone, pressed strongly but as an attacking threat non existent Martin 5 Several good chances and a vital winner but slow and offered little outlet for much of the game Scott 6 Added a bit of quality on the ball in difficult conditions although hard done by when hacked down and ref waved play on

For most of his 20 months at Bristol City, Nahki Wells has been a bit part figure, not even making the starting line ups for the early part of this season. But after running the channels like a man possessed in the win at QPR away and then in a draw with division favourites Fulham on Saturday, his last minute withdrawal at Millwall seemed to badly disrupt City’s forward play, exposing a depressing lack of cutting edge for all their possession at the Den. City were expected to build on a five match unbeaten run, and yet despite weathering a purposeful Lions opening, and then controlling the game led by Joe Williams in midfield, including an utterly dominant 15 minutes after half time, the visitors offered little actual attacking threat - and then threw away everything in a single moment as a sloppy Tyreeq Bakinson was caught out in midfield, and Benik Afobe raced clear to win the decisive penalty. Despite reinforcements from the bench, City faded badly and never looked like levelling - a depressing reminder that for all the talk of transformation since last season, lacking both Wells and Semenyo’s pace, Massengo’s bite, and then suffering Baker’s exit in just the first half - once again the side is a hostage to player fitness, exposing a painful lack of pace and quality in attack, even after O’Dowda’s typically forgettable second half wing return. With Nigel Pearson isolating and led by Curtis Fleming on the touchline, City switched to three at the back after the pre-game loss of Wells - and the disruption was obvious as Millwall dominated the opening exchanges at a sparsely filled and unseasonally cold New Den, Scott Malone, Matt Smith and George Evans efforts all forcing the visitors to defend in numbers, before City finally settled and wrested control of the game after 10 minutes. First Jay DaSilva capitalised on a poor throw in and swept the ball upfield for Bakinson to get clear down the left, cutting inside and racing into the box, but robbed of possession, the half clearance reached Matty James outside the area who unleashed a rising shot just over the angle of post and bar. On the quarter hour Bakinson’s looped ball forward and a defensive slip let Andi Weimann turn and race clear, but the keeper closed him down quickly. By now City were starting to craft well worked football in the middle third, and good interplay led to James lifting another through ball which Bakinson stole onto inside the box only to miscontrol and be flagged for offside. Then at the midway point of the half Bakinson threaded DaSilva down the left and clear to the byline, his cross eluding several City options and finding fellow wingback George Tanner beyond the far post to nod down tamely wide. Just before the half hour the visitors were rocked by the sadly familiar sight of Baker going down off the ball and requiring attention before being withdrawn, Cam Pring on in his place. Unsurprisingly Millwall capitalised with the first big chance of the game as Evans headed down behind City’s backline and Afobe skipped clear inside the box with just the keeper to beat, Bentley doing brilliantly to beat away the shot at close range in front of away fans. Much of City’s best football was coming through DaSilva down the left and before the break two crosses in quick succession threatened an opening - first on the break his ball into the middle was bundled clear of the ineffectual Chris Martin, and then from the resulting corner, recycling the ball at the second attempt, the wing back centred and found Weimann whose flashing header went just wide of the far post as the visitors again failed to capitalise. On the stroke of half time it should have been the hosts who went in front, rallying with a series of chances before the break, they worked the same proven combination as Evans again found Afobe behind City’s defence, the one time Ashton Gate striker heading down into the bottom corner at close range, Bentley tipping past the post. It was a stark reminder of the value of pace and purpose up front, compared to City’s largely anonymous front two. As it happens Curtis Fleming’s men took the game to Millwall from the restart, attacking towards their travelling fans. Williams and James were dominating midfield, with time to pick their passes and find dangerous channel balls. But lacking both pace and cutting edge - Martin in particular turning in the box to find an angle only to lose out - it didn’t take long for O’Dowda to be thrown on at the expense of DaSilva, as City tried to turn the screw. It was one-sided football against a poor looking Millwall side and despite a succession of corners and getting both O’Dowda and Tanner racing clear down both flanks, City were utterly bereft of quality in the final third. Both wide men were guilty of squandering crosses - cut out or, in the case of O’Dowda, overhit with Weimann well placed to finish - but in truth the failures owed much also to the absence of Wells and with it any real threat in the middle. So the sucker punch came as no surprise after the hour mark. Bakinson, an increasingly uncertain figure alongside impressive central midfield colleagues, hesitated on the ball in the centre circle and was robbed of possession, a quick through ball highlighting the advantage of pace in attack as Afobe raced clear on goal and drew a foul from Rob Atkinson, substitute Jed Wallace smashing the resultant penalty into the top corner with unerring confidence. And that was it. City had shown little quality in attack despite controlling the game from the tenth to the sixtieth minute, and by now their tiring midfielders had run out of options and let the game slip away from them, although there was briefly time for Bakinson to slash wide after Martin and Weimann combined in space on City’s right. Withdrawing the tiring Williams for the wrong sort of Kasey Palmer cameo compounded the complete surrender. City, far from finishing the game strongly in search of an equaliser, were aiming quick balls forward at O’Dowda and Palmer, which sounds exactly as horrific as it actually was, the total lack of composure or fluidity that marked our earlier purpose, saving us only from the predictable sight of Chris Martin lumbering about in attack being outrun by anything that moved. This was a throwback to last season. An awful performance against a poor side. Bentley 7 Two important saves from Afobe with the best chances of the game Baker 5 Another early exit for his record of early exits - was it the knock from Saturday? Kalas 7 Plays like he takes it all personally and worked hard throughout Atkinson 6 Unfortunate with the penalty but some good marauding runs forward Tanner 5 Tireless performance but can see the step up in quality needed going forward DaSilva 6 One of our more effective performers, we were much worse after he went off Williams 7 Our most purposeful of midfielders and drove the team forward until he ran out of steam James 6 There is a good partnership with Williams to be had but they need players to aim for Bakinson 4 Influential early on but became increasingly ponderous and careless - lacking confidence Weimann 5 Given no service and played so far off Martin maybe maybe he thought Wells was playing Martin 4 Please god not a season of this - a few knock downs and otherwise looked like he was queuing for petrol Pring 5 Had one header over and at fault at least once when Millwall got in behind us O’Dowda 4 Ran down the wing a few times, overhit a cross, fell over, then disappeared, standard stuff Palmer 4 Tried one cute through ball straight to an opponent, rarely controlled any passes to him

This is an absolutely outstanding post @Davefevs and I hope to earn the right to buy you a beer one day.

Net £20m profit on players required every year just to break even. FFS this isn't sustainable without incredible turnover of signings and young players, or Premier League football.

Unfortunately the story on the official website links to the wrong accounts (BCH 18/19) so no detail to look at. Edit - now corrected.

I think we should build another stadium on the site, just so that Tilly has a shit view out of her front window as well.

Probably like others I revisited this thread this morning having seen the BBC website headline on limiting social gatherings again. With a bit of time to spare prompted by your remark I decided to re-read the first 5-10 pages. An interesting history lesson for sure. To be fair while there are a few cynics (but quite a small number by OTIB standards!) I'm impressed by quite how many regular posters on here called this fairly accurately from day one. I must admit I had no idea what would happen back in February, but the sense I get from most who had posted back then is consistent with what we've since lived through. Credit where it's due rather than bashing posters.

I'm aware some companies are just ignoring contracts at the moment and withholding payments and going cap in hand to their suppliers citing "Force Majeure", but really, for a £100m contract it's pretty pathetic if they didn't have explicit terms providing for what should happen if there are delays to the fixtures even of this kind. Bet the lawyer still got paid a fortune to draft it. And also, part of me finds it quite funny that foreign broadcasters that English football has whored itself out to so readily, would just pull the plug like that. I know with the FA Cup even fans aren't paying yet for remaining rounds, but in general supporters likely have left their season ticket and pre-purchased ticket money in the pot in far larger proportions than the broadcasters. Useful reminder of who has and always will support football - even if clubs haven't always prioritised us...

Plot twist (someone else to sell the ground to)

Well quite. I made the point on here more than a week ago so I'm not going to labour it, but this continues to baffle me to this day and will for the rest of my life if the country suffers badly this year or I lose friends or family to this disease. As mentioned before there was literally historical precedent for being able to ground all flights across Europe at the drop of a hat, so why didn't we do so when we saw this developing - even from regions affected would have been a start. People were flying in from Northern Italy and tweeting their free passage through UK airports unchecked when it was already out of control. Yet try flying into Heathrow from Lisbon if you're not white - they can do it if they want to. ? I'm amazed the usual newspapers didn't make a fuss. A few dark people in a rubber dinghy off Dover and they all lose their shit, but 1000s of people flying in and out of the country from disease central and no one says a ******* thing. I can only guess the government was a) worried about financial hit to airlines, b) inconveniencing Brits skiing in Northern Italy and/or c) simply isn't up to the task of taking back control of borders, other than as a soundbite to win votes. The double standards are astounding. The country has been consumed for years with the threat of foreigners and whipped into a frenzy to control the border. Given the first practical exercise to do so we do **** all and no one says a thing. If they had been refugees arriving from Lombardy, this would have played out very differently...

Latest FT graph is out tonight "UK in real trouble here" we'll be on lock down by Tuesday https://twitter.com/jburnmurdoch/status/1241465632589254656?s=21

We have all heard lots of hypothetical moral dilemmas in our lives, but London at the moment is an extraordinary real life moral dilemma. You are 100% correct about low skilled low wage workers, though many people don't seem to think they exist, they are the invisible workforce, and shutting London down would be devastating for them. Until the government combines formal shutdown with some underwriting of these wages (not the inprecise, passive instructions) people will keep going about their business even if it's wrong. It's easy for people who can work from home, or go without wages, to sneer, but there are a lot of people who desperately need to keep their work. Our office cleaner last night was in tears, we're her last office open, most of our lot have gone home and she says if we also close today she's got no work and no pay (zero hours cleaning contractor) and two young kids to support. There are people like this all over the city, unless the employer is underwriting wages and shutting down. And yet all across social and even from our PM last night I hear we should all be in this together and people still going about their business are selfish, we must pull together and follow instructions. It's amazing double standards, we don't pull together to help them afford to be out of work. Their survival instinct goes beyond just COVID-19. It's a moral dilemma I'm struggling with. I wish the government would remove the uncertainty.

I've been working all day and you've had my name in your mouth all day from the mentions I've just seen. I'm sorry that you didn't get the catch you were fishing for, I can't imagine how sad your life must be to spend your day trolling people on the web. While you're trying to be clever and acting like I don't care about people dieing, I had challenged why people were flying in and out of the country freely but there was talk about shutting football down as a priority. The problem didn't come here via football. Exactly ten years ago the whole of Europe shut down flights in seconds and for two weeks. It's that easy. Am sure it would've been more effective. I know this because it took me a week to get back to Bristol from work and I missed my dad passing away after a year by his side in intensive care. So spare me your pathetic trolling like I don't care about older generations dieing. I was very clear I was talking about double standards. No one said shit about flights or stopping them yet it was obviously the source of the problem. But now there is a narrative that stopping football is the plan. I call out bull**** you just post it. Now kindly **** off and stop mentioning me.

Not to make light of what is clearly an escalating situation, but why are football fans always the thing people want to stop first. Icy streets stop football fans. Terrorist threats check football fans jackets. COVID-19 play football behind closed doors. Meanwhile everyone else do what the **** you like. We were talking about Coronavirus at Leeds away - that's when it was first reported in the UK. A month ago. It had already taken hold in Italy. Did we stop people heading off to ski in Northern Italy? I haven't left the country for a holiday, I work hard and want to follow my team around England. The last thing I want to do is catch or pass on a virus to the vulnerable, but FFS it's been fine for a different class of people to get their annual ski trip done first. I get it, big crowds, virus out of control, moving from containment to delay. But there is a sub-text. Football fans are irresponsible, football fans are unhygienic. I could get it on the tube - and more likely too. Why are football fans a different class of big crowd. Politicians won't bat an eye lid if football fans all end up £100s out of pocket on trains and match tickets let alone season ticket. Meanwhile holidaymakers have a thing called travel insurance and when the government pulls the plug, they get them all home. Sorry, this is a bit of a misplaced rant, it is a serious situation, I just detest the double standards.

Absolutely typical of Sky. Has Harry Redknapp been filmed hanging out of a Range Rover admitting he is considering buying one or other club?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/49486208 WTF.

The idea of regionalising the lower leagues is romantic but a bit like re-arranging deckchairs on the titanic. There are bigger issues here that simply reducing travel expenses will not solve - most clubs that get into these problems seem to do so because they cease to be viable for the people who bought them. The problem is the people who buy clubs and the fact that the lack of fan ownership means that when that person unilaterally decides their club is no longer viable, they can sit on the asset awaiting an offer to their satisfaction, rather than fund the club or put it in the hands of others, or in the trust of those fans. The solution to this is for the EFL to a) properly enforce due diligence on people buying clubs so that their financial capacity and business plan to run such clubs is "fit and proper" and b) start to transition all clubs to a minimum level of "member" ownership, as in Germany, so one person doesn't control the future. It IS possible to run a viable football league club at all levels. The fact so many aren't is down to their owners and by implication the EFL and its rules. We know how casual they are about rules because at our level it has been easy for far bigger clubs to game the system and abstract losses by re-arranging assets. Bury is a particularly sad story given its history and because it has never reaped the rewards of football's big time. The easy cliche is to point the finger at rich clubs and players, but the EFL and their directors trouser plenty of money themselves and this is actually their job. Don't hate the player, hate the game.

Putting aside the stadium thing, I still think this basic accounting twist on amortisation is already highly dubious. @DerbyFan I do appreciate you sharing the club's definition of how you handle player costs as I'd not seen it officially laid out, which is helpful. I have no specific axe to grind with Derby, I have friends who are Derby fans, always find Derby fans decent when we cross paths on trains on match days, and very much enjoy my trips to the area (well, okay, specifically the Brunswick!) However I just can't get my head round this practice being fair (it seems like an obvious attempt to "game" compliance) and as in bold above, kicking the can down the road to "take the hit" later seems to be incredibly reckless and exactly what FFP is meant to be putting a stop to. That the definition from Derby even explicitly includes provision to negotiate new contracts and re-amortise an existing prior player cost further into the future is barmy to me, as is self evaluating impairment charges. It seems to me to be continually deferring a lot of real terms costs from the balance sheet until you can get into the Premiership and then release all these accounting anomalies when you can "take the hit" far more comfortably. It's pure accounting sleight of hand. That alone should bring everything else Morris does into question. If the EFL had half a brain they'd define accounting rules so that the whole process of FFP is comparing like for like and not allowing clubs to write their own rules. Don't get me wrong, the logic of Derby's model is valid - I've often pointed out on this board myself that paying silly money for a young player is something I think SL would do IF wages were achievable, as it's wages that are our real terms drag on the balance sheet and where we get beaten to players by most of our peers. £10m transfer fee amortised (straight line) followed by a likely profit on sale of exciting young player, is simply asset management to a lifelong share trader like Lansdown. Therefore one could argue that we should use Derby's residual value accounting. SL doesn't, I assume because it would be very misleading and very dangerous. Players get injured, players don't work out, and most of all players nowadays will run a contract down if they can get a big signing on fee at a future club. Derby's accounting implies certainty that none of this will happen and there is a guaranteed market and return for their players, allowing them to keep their costs off the balance sheet. It's a neat trick to comply with FFP limits, but it's just a time bomb done in the hope of securing Premier League football before it goes off. And seeing the definition of how Derby handle re-negotiated contracts with re-amortisation of existing costs that still haven't hit the balance sheet, I can see even more there is a process here to keep deferring costs. You could actually give a **** player a new contract on meager terms to artificially defer their cost. And on current form I suspect Morris would.