Jack Dawe

Ok, so it is the difference in class in the two squads. So how did MK manage a draw there recently? How did we manage to beat Boro twice? And how did we overcome the difference in class to draw with Hull at AG? If fear does not come into it, why was LJ referring to fear 48 hours before the game? Rotherham v top 6 this season: First five games: Brighton, Burnley, Wednesday, Derby, Middlesbrough - five defeats. Then, from Dec 19th: Hull, won 2:0; Brighton, won 2:0; Burnley, lost 0:2; Wednesday, won 1:0; Middlesbrough, won 1:0; Derby 3:3. Rotherham have turned it around against the big sides, they have bridged the gulf in class, they have found a way to compete. And that transformation precedes Warnock arriving there. So, it can be done. Question is: how? Preston, First five games v Top 6: 2 draws, 3 defeats. Next 5 v Top 6: 3 wins, 2 draws. So, Preston, same-ish class of players as us, struggled at first but have also found a way to live with the gulf in class. It can be done. But neither Cotts or LJ, yet, have found a way. Sir Alex understood the importance of press conferences and public statements. I don't think the gulf is insurmountable and I believe we shouldn't be sending subliminal or overt messages that we can't compete. Cotts fell into that trap, I just hope LJ is not going to as well!

I think, unfortunately, they demonstrated today, the "fear" that LJ on Thursday talked about drilling into them they must not show or play with. Post match, Lee said we are not quite at the level where we can compete with the teams like Hull. Is there a contradiction there? We have two games left against top 6 sides - sides like Hull - and 5 against teams we have been getting results against, although Rotherham Tuesday looks as tough as any of the seven remaining games.

They like to "trumpet" this, their percentage of home crowd that goes away, I've read on here (if these are accurate accounts. It's probably just one bloke on their forum). So, 651 out of an average home crowd of - it must be 7000 odd, I would guess. In comparison: Accrington took 156 to Newport today (average home gate 1600 the last 3 seasons) Hartlepools took 359 to L. Orient today (average gate 3,700 last two seasons). I don't have this season's ave attendances but imagine Stanley and Pools ave are about what they always are. And the percentage those two took away today, Pools journey as long as Rovers, Stanley's not far off, looks to be roughly similar to Rovers, if not slightly better? Someone else can do the math(s). In addition, Hartleppol are not chasing promotion, or even seriously involved at the bottom now. Not much riding on their game. So Rovers, with home gates double that of Hartlepools, fail to take twice as many for their game travelling an almost identical distance, whilst winning games and chasing promotion. I make it their "percentage" is broadly speaking, about the same as Accrington Stanley's and Hartlepools's. It's no more or no less "special" than the support of Accrington or Hartlepools, but I don't anticipate that stopping them talking themselves up so much and continuing to build the myth of an "enviable" and "special" fanbase. I wonder why they feel the need to do this so much?

Based on real events maybe Loon but neuroscience tells us our recall of those events, the details, the nuances, is unreliable and not to be taken as fact! I'm with neuroscience on this, not the Tote End

Another point to make about memory is - just to raise the tone here, briefly - that each time we recall an event we reconstruct it, every time. It changes. We are adding to it, or "forgetting" things. Painful memories, those that are damaging to self esteem (when the Tote took a hiding say), are surpressed. Memory is selective, adaptive, flexible. That's if I remember my neuroscience studies correctly That's why I love looking at old league tables (and attendance records): if we didn't have them, we'd have Rovers insisting they have been the better team all these years and better home crowds, even more than they already do!

Our memories are unreliable though, notoriously so, how we remember things is invariably little to do with the reality of events. Did Chris Brown keep a diary? Did he get home from a hard day's "aggro" on the Tote and Stapleton Road and an evening down the Bamboo Club, sit down and then make careful notes of the day's events? Even at that distance, about five hours, his memory would've been highly selective and inaccurate ; sitting down to write after 25 years or more would involve a considerable amount of imagination. Most of what he's written will be how he wants to remember those days, rather than accurately portraying events. We all sit with a perfect view and watch Marlon Pack in midfield but you don't get one opinion on how he's played. We see things as we are (in his case, gas) not as they are, as someone once noted. All the time I watch replays of goals or moments in matches and it is never quite as I remembered it in my mind, always a little different. Not disputing your recollection of their "larger men" and them having a mob back then, but the book, like all these books, is a work of fiction and imagination, put together from tiny fragments of memory and with a strong desire to maintain some pride and reputation. Even in their 50s, there's still a lot of the little boy in the playground in blokes when it comes to football. As we see on this thread all the time!

Who was dopey/deranged/daring (you choose) enough to go to Millwall in the mid 80s and "have a pop" resulting in years of back and forth trouble - City or Rovers?

They like a book, the few. I don't think they've let a promotion go by yet without producing a bloody book about it

I can only guess Easty wanted to "meet up" because he thinks we're staying up now and the blue few's wet dream of a Bristol derby is fading away, at least for yet another year?

Do Stoke fans go through this with little Port Vale? Do any other Championship clubs have L2 types seeking attention?

Clearly, someone is rattled. We prefer to spar verbally, son. Not your strong point, by the looks of it

Well, we've got Bolton to be scared of first. Then the likes of Hull City, Derby County, Sheffield Wednesday, Blackburn, QPR - you know, clubs that were in the Premier League, clubs trying to get back to the Premier League. You can only worry about so much at any one time. If it's any consolation to them, I'll worry about Rovers over the summer when we haven't got trying to beat clubs like Derby and Wednesday to worry about. Then we can worry about little old L2 clubs up the road

Rovers: "Success is going from failure to failure without losing your enthusiasm." Winston Churchill.

One way to tell a billionaire is, what do they own? Central London property/multiple properties Enormous Yachts Helicopters Fourth division football club That sort of thing

Amber

You can never win, at best only draw, putting this up, because we just come back with Colin Daniel relegating you out of the Football League, down into non-league football, where you played against clubs with average gates below four figures, below 1000, part time clubs. And therein lies the difference in Bristol: Rovers celebrate the goal at Wembley that cost City a place in the top league of English football, while City celebrate the goal at a dump in Horfield that sent Rovers tumbling out of the bottom tier, the fourth division, into non-league football. That's the clear difference between us, and I'm struggling to see this changing anytime soon

Sainsbury's have been trading in Bristol for 45 years, Rovers have been treading water for over 100 years in Bristol (and various other locations) Nothing to see here. As you were

When were they last in English football's top tier? Yes, exactly. We finished higher that season, 2007/8, than Rovers have managed in their history. I always find a pic or vid or a recollection of Cheese scoring at Arsenal in '76 is more than enough to put them in their place.

I don't doubt at all that should they ever manage to build a new ground, their crowds will increase significantly, and they will finally average a 5 figure home gate, even though it is 40 years since they last managed this. You have to go back to 1960 to find them averaging 15k, where we are at right now. Only 12 times in their history have they exceeded our average this year, constrained as it is by redevelopment. But plenty of clubs have improved there support with a new ground and success. Few hold on to it though without maintaining the success on the pitch. Look at the three grounds they have begged, borrowed and stolen, the grounds they called "home" over the years - shockingly poor sh1t tips. If/when they move into a shiny new place they will be besides themselves, and there will be a hike in attendances, at least initially, like happens anywhere, like we will probably see if we stay up. We might as well ready ourselves for their home attendances being less of a source of embarrasment to them, and a go-to for us to make cheap jibes. But by how much, and for how long, that is open to question. For as long as we are successful, it is reasonable to think we will be better supported. What I find interesting is their expectations - these seem to be soaring already. Unmet expectations can be pretty corrosive amongst elements of any support, we know about this. Rovers expectations were modest when they were in Bath, and they exceeded them. These expectations have been kept in check while residing at the antiquated Memorial Ground, and they failed to live up to them in 2014. But they will be sky high at first in a new ground. If the gap between those raised expectations and the reality before them is too big, or takes too long to realise, what happens to that new support? What happens to the existing support? For how long would more than 10k watch L1 football? If Rovers are banking on being a Championship club at some point, what will it take to sustain that? Will 15-18k crowds be enough when from the year after next this league will be even more financially uneven and challenging for clubs coming up from L1? Much of the same applies to us of course, but with a 27000 ground and a 15k average now, already, we have the basics for survival in this league in place. What we want now is the nous, at boardroom level. Get enough of that, and we'll be okay. I reckon. Regardless of how wealthy Rovers new owner is, regardless of their ability to get 15k plus crowds, without that nous, Rovers will be lucky to enjoy much more than coming up from L1 and going straight back down from this league. And it remains to be seen how much stomach there is amongst the blue few for that bitter reality, once the newness of it all wears off.

My take on our respective crowds is that there wasn't much in it prior to us getting back into the top flight in 1976, with us always having a few more. You can see this where the Bristol derby was always a few more at our place, or, to put it another way, a few less at their place. Then, we had loads more for a couple of years, not surprisingly, as we entertained Liverpool, Man Utd etc. Then things returned to normal, and when we were both relegated in 1981, we had a few more loyal fans (9,765) every week than Rovers (5,929). Then in 82, we were relegated again and Rovers weren't but we had a few more every week (6,511) to their (5,402). But then, in 83, when Rovers finished 7th in Div 3, and we finished 14th in Div 4, after 3 successive relegations, the most unusual thing happened: more people watched Rovers than us! Then it was back to normal the following year, with fewer people watching Rovers than us. And it's been like that every year since, with few exceptions. Or, to be more precise, with no exceptions. A few more at our place than their's is how it has been (although they have to go back to the 1960s to see figures like ours over the last 15 years). Our highest ever average (26,575) is a few more than theirs (24,662). In the 80s, we used to sell out 6000 tickets on the Muller Road (plus a few dotted around other parts of Eastville), they used to be 3500 to 4000 in the Park End (often just the one pen, not both). In the 90s, we both played at Anfield in the cup, and we took a few more than Rovers. And they lost, and we won. Not by much, just a few. And Rovers even had a player called Mephew. But that's another story. Broadly speaking, there are about as many Rovers diehards as City, with City having a few more, but we have always been able to pull a bigger home crowd. And we can call on a bigger following to Wembley, and a bigger away crowd. By a few. That isn't to say that on some days, occasionally, there are a few more Rovers than us. But generally, overall, looking at the bigger picture, there's a few more of us than them. Over a season. On average. That's how averages work! There's just a few more of us (City) than them (Rovers). Or, to put it another way, there's a few less blue than red. Ho hum. How exciting. So, to finish, bearing in mind all of the above, the fact that Rovers, in a promotion chasing season, with twice as many wins, and following a home win, took a few more than us, in a relegation fighting season, with half the wins, and following a home thrashing, to Nottingham, bearing all this in mind, it is no wonder, and I don't blame them, for getting all excited and taking the trouble to point out to us, that they took a few more than us. We'd be all excited and pointing this out to them if it was the other way round. So let us let them have their moment. They are, for them, few and far between. That's why we call them The Few. The Blue Few. Cos there's a few more of us than them. Or, to put it another way, a few less of them than us. I just hope this clears this all up. It might all be about to change, things might be different from now on, but that's how it's been in Bristol up til now. Who knows, perhaps today's news that Rovers took a few more than us to Nottm is an indication that the tide is turning, and things will never be the same around here. But we'll need a few more examples before we can see clear signs of a sea change in support in Bristol, where traditionally, apart from about two seasons in the 50s, and 1982/83, there's always been a few more City than Rovers. That's my take on it, anyway. Well done Rovers for today, you had the fourth biggest away following in L2 (with just a few fewer than Oxford, Luton and Pompey. But a few more than us last week)! I hope that's fair. I'm off for a lie down. Phew!

That's a good following for Rovers today, credit where it's due. But not as good as Pompey at Stevenage (about half the 4,092 crowd, apparently), Luton at Orient (1400) or Oxford at Plymouth (1300) and Oxford had quite a bit further to travel than Rovers. So, not quite the "biggest" yet in L2, and a bit of catching up there for Rovers to do.

Like this,^^ " The Fewers. " Very good!

You lot appropriating this now, as well?

Not so much of late