italian dave

@SkuseMe Thanks for the post: I won’t ‘quote’ the whole thing again! On that view of Ashton among Ipswich fans: I’m sure you’re right and to be fair the guys we met said just that. That theirs wasn’t a view many others would share. As for the game, you seem to have seen it much as they did. And I have to say that even as a fan of the losing side I thought it was a great game to watch: thoroughly enjoyed it. I’d say good luck for the rest of the season: but - selfishly - I’d much prefer a trip to Ipswich again next season than another one to Leeds or Leicester!!

Who exactly are the “anti-Pearson screamers”, SA? Given recent comments you’ve made, maybe you have me down as one? And if that’s the case then - as I’ve said to you several times - you have that completely wrong. If not, who? I honestly can’t recall any sort of concerted anti NP sentiment last year, and certainly no concerted campaign calling for his departure. Ive just had a quick look back at the last two matchday threads of NPs tenure. Both defeats. I thought maybe I’d forgotten something. But, no, no sort of campaign at all - quite the opposite in fact. And, as far as I could see, not a single post calling for him to be sacked. I just wonder whether these ‘screamers’ exist in the same place as Bristol Sport employees?!

Bloody hell RP!! Its bad enough having to wade through umpteen threads all having a moan, without finding a whole thread repeated within a thread

You could maybe argue that you’re both right?! And that reflects the bungled and illogical nature of the comms plan the club put together to deal with it. Everything is in place we have a top end squad, we don’t need to change anything, but we are changing things. Everything’s hunk dory and we’re bringing in someone different to do the same as the person we’ve just sacked. At the same time we need to do something different to get to a different place to where we are now. It doesn’t make sense. Which means you can read into it what you will.

I think maybe you’ve answered your own question Dave! I guess we’ll see whether the January window was about budgets or about who’s available come the summer. One thing I think is often overlooked - because it’s out of sight and off the field - is the issue of relationships and trust. If the assumptions on here are correct, then that was NPs downfall at the end of the day. I have no idea what goes on behind the scenes, but you’d imagine/hope that relationship and trust between senior people is now better. And that has to be a good thing for the club. I know you can debate whether the right people ended up leaving when those relationships broke down - but that’s a fairly pointless debate: it’s just about being realistic! And I know you can make the case @Capman makes above about speaking truth to power. And I don’t argue with that. But there are ways of doing that. And doing it in a way that ends up with a complete breakdown of the relationship isn’t the way. I think you’ve made the point in the past about Gould having been the buffer between NP and JL and it’s possibly his departure that’s been more of a problem for the club than anything else. Whether LM is just a ‘yes man’, or whether he has different skills in terms of speaking that truth - I’ve no idea, and I’m not sure anyone on here really does?

I'm at a complete loss to understand how you can say that I'm trying to frame your opinion as outrageous WSM. I've quite explicitly said that it's a legitimate view. Twice. I've very deliberately set out to simply say that there are different views on this; I've very deliberately stepped back from expressing my own view on it because I'm not trying to argue that one is right and one is wrong. I'm just suggesting that, depending which view you take will colour your view on the issue of finding a replacement. All you keep doing is repeating your view. Although you occasionally say the words "other people are entitled to their view" you consistently fail to acknowledge the consequences of that when they do hold a different view. Your last sentence sums it up. Your view is that Manning isn't a competent manager. Therefore it follows that most competent managers would be a better alternative. Someone who has a different view, that they haven't yet judged Manning incompetent, will inevitably have a different view on the likelihood of finding a better replacement. And, just to really really clear, I am NOT making a judgement on whether either view is right, wrong, outrageous or otherwise. I'm just making the point that those two different views on Manning's competence will lead to different conclusions about what happens next.

Just to clarify two things WSM: - I'm not trying to frame it as you against others. I'm saying you hold that view. Others hold the same view, others hold a different view. They're all legitimate. - by starting point I meant your starting point now for assessing the likelihood of us doing better if we appoint someone else. Not your starting point when LM was appointed. Oh, and a third - I could do worse with this squad. I'm confident that another manager could get more too. Jurgen Klopp. But we're not going to get him. And the point I'm making is that - because of your starting point - you're going to see a great many more inferior options than that as being better options than we've got. You've said as much yourself - almost anyone. Someone who doesn't start from that point, someone who hasn't written LM off, will still see Jurgen Clop as a better option but may not see as many others as you do. But it's all opinion and guesswork. None of us can be certain. Your view is as legitimate as anyone else's. But so is the other persons. Not sure what Pearson has to do with it.

ha ha...yes, I've often wondered if/when those will be forthcoming. Especially now he has some time on his hands!!

It’s like reading OTIB. Except, I reckon there’s more confidence about us staying up over on gas chat than there is on here!

Isn’t that because the two views start from two different premises. I think we’d all agree that we could appoint a worse manager than LM. We could appoint me, for example! And at the other extreme, we’d probably all welcome Jurgen Klopp taking over tomorrow, but it ain’t going to happen! So the reality lies somewhere in between me and Jurgen Klopp And within that range there’s a whole array of variables around competence, availability, fit, cost and so on. Theres no absolute guarantee that anyone within that range will bring us greater success, so it’s a judgement call. Now, your starting point is that you’ve already written LM off. Others haven’t. They are both legitimate opinions: there’s no right and wrong, no absolute certainty there. But the consequence is that you’ll have a different take on the risks around the replacement and your judgement will probably draw a line in a different place to someone who’s not written him off. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s only ‘desperation’ if you start from the premise that you do. (Ultimately, it’s 99% sure you’ll be right of course . We all know pretty much all managerial careers end in failure eventually - it’s just a case of whether it’s this month, this year or in 4 years time!)

I’m not saying that. I don’t really know the answer to that because I don’t know enough about how roles, responsibilities, accountabilities and objectives were operated at the time. But that’s not what this discussion was about. It was explicitly about what LJ achieved in terms of league position. I did acknowledge at the outset that there were legitimate challenges around the resources etc he had.

Sure. But ultimately it should have been MA (and SL) calling the shots there. The financial buck stopped with them. And actually I don’t think it helped LJ one jot in the end. Too many options.

OK. And I don’t disagree. I just wasn’t sure why it followed in response to a discussion about league positions under LJ. Sure we were in a financial mess. But LJ hadn’t been in charge of the money.

Yes, absolutely. I agree. Covid didn’t help either, mind. This isn’t some sort of LJ v NP thing - not in my mind anyway. They had entirely different objectives. LJ’s was league position. Consolidation, then improvement, then in his last season, top 6. Others made the decision about how much money he got, not him. And we went shit for bust that last season (like plenty others did). Again, financially, not his decision. And for much of his tenure he succeeded: failed at the end with that last one. But that doesn’t negate the overall achievements over his tenure. NP’s was entirely different. And yes, as you say, driven by financial imperatives, cutting costs, saving us from FFP consequences. Whilst treading water. And he did a great job. We put the books in order without ever really flirting with relegation - although a season when others had big points deductions helped! His problem at the end of the day seems to have been maintaining relationships. But the point is that they both had different jobs to do and both did decent enough jobs on the whole.

And the other problem I have is with reverting to name calling. End of debate.

But who? Which owners? When? What would they do different? And the same for the DoF. And for the coaches.. It’s not arguing for the sake of it. It’s the fundamental problem I have with all this “sack everyone” stuff. It’s not a solution, it’s not an end in itself. You have to say what follows and how that makes it better. And then how you are so sure of that. If it was a simple as just ‘sack everyone’ don’t you think everyone would be doing it? And it’s hardly worked for Watford!

And then what? No owners. No DoF. No coaches. Just some players and supporters. Sounds like a recipe for great success to me

What’s the phrase…..damned with faint praise

That’s fair enough: your view. I don’t have a particular view on the appointment: don’t really know what the objectives, alternatives etc were. I think it’s also fair to say though that his flirtations with both were linear and evidence of the progress under him. He flirted with relegation early on, but latter end of his tenure was very much ‘top end’ (to coin a phrase ) No, he didn’t achieve it, and that’s what cost him his job - I’m pretty sure top 6 was the ultimatum that season. (Well, you did mention it, but I think you got away with it ).

I think it was earlier today (long trip back from Ipswich!) that I characterised his tenure as taking us from a yo-yo L1/Champ club to an established mid table (maybe even top half) Champ club. I'm not talking about picking specific individual points in time (we can all prove anything that way!) just generally how the club is perceived. I think that's fair?? And I know you can argue about the resources he had, the opportunities he missed and so on - but at the end of the day he did that - and I feel that was significant and deserves acknowledgment.

Funnily enough, they mentioned some of those games. when we talked about how we'd struggled against sides like QPR and Cardiff. Even the top teams do. Funny old division, eh?! As for the rest...don't shoot the messenger. Just saying what I heard - and I thought it might bring a bit of relief to the relentless negativity!

And yet....he took us to the most consistently successful league position we've been in for 40 years.

Interestingly it was because they know people who work with him. And it was about him, not about what's been achieved at Ipswich while he's been there. Their view was that 'for Mark Ashton it's all about Mark Ashton' - and I'm not sure there's many of us would disagree with that view? And Mr H - no, that wasn't the case: it was exactly as I said. We expressed no opinion. We said 'what's your view on Mark Ashton?' and the immediate reply was 't w a t'. Simple as that.

I think that's a very unfair and inaccurate portrayal of my view SA. I backed LJ because he was the City HC and I wanted him to do well. And I backed NP for exactly the same reason. I've no idea where you get this notion that I wasn't supportive of NP. My view on both was that they manage the club I love, that they both want what's best for the club, and as long as those two things are the case then they'll have my support. I didn't share the loathing that some on here had for LJ. And I didn't share the man love that some seemed to have for NP. So that may have put me at odds with a significant proportion on here, but I'd argue that I was the more even handed! And I take exactly the same view as far as LM is concerned. That doesn't preclude criticism. I've been critical of all three. But I think that criticism needs to be constructive. otherwise it stops supporting them. and for the reasons above I've supported them all. What I don't like, and don't join in with is the endlessly repetitive negativity. It's fair enough to question - for example - whether LM is getting the best out of Tommy Conway. But there are already three separate threads all asking the same thing and all saying the same thing. So why the f... do we need yet another thread on exactly the same topic started this morning? Who exactly is this going to help? Neither do I like go for the campaigns and petitions and calls to 'sack xxx'. (And you won't find that I ever called for NP to be sacked - not even when everyone else was!). Because it's pointless. I don't get a say. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And most of all because just sacking someone achieves precisely nothing - other than leaving us without a manager. And I certainly don't go for the name calling and the abuse. Which is becoming depressingly apparent again. It's just pathetic. And all that applies whoever if our manager. I don't generally get particularly attached to or feel a particular antipathy to any manager. I don't know them. And as far as I'm concerned, whether it's LJ, NP, LM or anyone else, while they manage City they have my support. So I think your assessment of my having different approaches to and views on NP and LJ is very far from the mark.