Mr Popodopolous

I certainly won't speak too soon about it, not after my early optimism last week that wasn't quite justified! ?. However! Results appear to be falling our way in the race for 3rd or even 2nd in Division 2. Full bonus points with the ball today and game or games in hand- think Lancashire will be winning this League, Glamorgan still in a decent position but this can change- could be a very open push for 1, if not 2 promotion places.

I fear you are right, but I believe UEFA regs don't allow profit on stadium sale and leaseback to count towards FFP- PL ones may though, but though I fear you are right I think there should be repercussions as it has effectively allowed them to circumnavigate PL rules to gain a place there- assuming that is that said rules have more in common with UEFA guidelines than EFL ones. God knows why the EFL lifted that regulation though...if they must have it they should set some sort of % of upper limit, ratio, proportion of profit that can count towards FFP. Reading's £6.5m profit on a £20m asset feels somewhat more realistic- that 32.5% or maybe a bracket of 25-35% should be the benchmark IMO when it comes to such RPTs. He can touch a nerve, I do agree. His hidden cryptic messages are ultimately pretty harmless though I reckon, can be amusing too. Bit juvenile though?

It may well go to the last game- at home you seem rather strong, that could be your ace in the pack Essex at home final game. Have it spinning like a top- but within County cricket regs of course. I'd sooner Somerset won it despite supporting Gloucestershire than one of the usual suspects tbh- about time the West Country started building up its sport profile bigger (except a certain team in Bristol of course).

Thought it was a curious decision looking from outside to bowl first. Tuned in to listen for a bit Saturday and when commentators said little movement, not a lot in it for the bowlers- well at Headingley traditionally look up not down. Like I said before, you're a bit unlucky- such a good start and yet such a low margin for error owing to Essex nearly keeping pace. Meanwhile in Division 2. Our current promotion prospects look a little something like this! Still 3 go up and we have games in hand, if we win this one it maybe game on again.

Sheff Wed fans are somewhat salty, touchy- they don't seem to like the scrutiny for some reason! https://www.owlstalk.co.uk/forums/topic/283349-kieran-maguire-article/

That genuinely did surprise me- that vote in April- I wonder what would have happened had the vote gone differently, would there have been some sort of demotion from the playoffs for Aston Villa especially, points deductions for Sheff Wed too? Plus maybe Derby- a good alternate history that. I think Gibson overplayed his hand in that meeting tbh. I understand the urgency too, but at the same time simply a motion of "Disallow profit or profit beyond a certain Reading type ratio on these transactions as a % from FFP calculations, then adjudge it from that new starting point"- I wonder if that might have passed. Then if it did pass, Aston Villa might have been docked points in-season, Sheffield Wednesday and maybe Derby.

The counterbalance there is though that there are other big clubs who comply- they too can perhaps cancel out the weight of the ones with sharp practice. Well big to medium anyway- Leeds, Middlesbrough and Nottingham Forest. Agree, David Conn- this sort of thing would be made for him. Given the EFL usually announce rule changes on their site, this one is pretty scandalous.

Hmm, what will happen? I fear not a lot- maybe Sheffield Wednesday soft embargo will continue until the end of the summer window on the principle that if their accounts come in late, then the EFL will take a long time scrutinising them and oops transfer deadline will pass. I mean is there definitive proof they have been registered by EFL, could Chansiri have not just released all this ie player announcements and "interesting" accounts as a distraction technique to boost morale what with Bruce maybe leaving? Aston Villa- really hard to say. I fear nothing but there were rumours at PL were looking into their deal as though it may well be acceptable within EFL regulations, EPL ones are not so clear- @Coppello if he hasn't covered it already maybe best placed to answer if the EPL could dock Aston Villa points for it breaching their rules? Derby- I had them down as big in breach but their accounts make it less clearcut. A big difference between the first 2 and Derby is they sold 7 players between 2016-17 and season just gone. Did they sign too? Yes, but these were a mix of first team and useful squad that they sold, plus e.g. Weimann and Vydra out Marriott and Waghorn in likely a reduction in total wages. Lee Grant- Squad. Cyrus Christie- First Team, Tom Ince- First Team, Will Hughes- First Team, Jeff Hendrick- First Team, Matej Vydra- First Team and Andreas Weimann- Either First Team or In and around. @DerbyFan may correct me on their status. My point is they're certainly not as bad as the other 2. To me as a starting point what should happen is that the valuations should be lopped down to a 32.5% profit on NBV as per Reading- precedent, benchmarking. Maybe that Derby pass with that, certainly not the other 2. Remove for FFP purposes the rest of the profit for all 3, then assess afresh. Sheffield Wednesday probably should be looked at for this and more, hopefully Mike McCarthy at BBC Radio Sheffield will continue his interesting work.

Can clubs not bring about some sort of pressure for this- especially this one because of the set of circs surrounding it? Aston Villa too if they return- this one seems even more pressing and more "interesting" though- I'd argue regardless of FFP that a serious EFL misconduct hearing is due unless they can produce documentation proving that the accounting period and the transaction were aligned, in real time and in real terms. Mike McCarthy BBC Sheffield is looking into this/covering it on Twitter. Indeed there is a possible "smoking gun" so to speak- found on Twitter and Owlstalk. This if accurate surely means that the transaction demonstrably DID NOT take place in financial year ending in July 31 2018- possible backdating job?? Tweet with time and date.

Interesting though, specifically on Sheffield Wednesday- credit to BBC, this is where it is from. Mike McCarthy BBC Radio Sheffield. This is particularly interesting, some of the bits in bold I mean. Not too bothered about their fans mind being put at ease, in fact the more edge the better for all I care, but the key questions: 1) Why non-disclosure of when transaction took place? 2) Smoke and mirrors? Either now or then! 3) Land Registry does not take that long to update- how do you backdate a sale so far? I know Mike McCarthy has basically ripped off some of my q's but won't hold it against him, but on a serious note these are all good questions and the EFL should be scrutinising this very closely indeed. He also states on Twitter that the company listed as owning Hillsborough- well it's unknown.

My last post was a bit strong but I still stand by what I say about having a serious problem when it comes to sharing a boardroom with such people- edit facility ran out of course. Idea on Fixed Asset sales, but especially sale and leaseback to related parties. Set the benchmark on the most realistic sale and leaseback price- Reading's £20m NBV, £26.5m transaction- accept that ratio i.e. 25-35% but no more. In which case, we would see the gross transaction price: Hillsborough- adjusted to somewhere between £27.8m and £30m. Profit on NBV between £5.6-£7.78m Pride Park- adjusted to somewhere between £51,449,516.25 to £55,565,477.55. Profit on NBV between £10,289,903.25-£14,405,864.55. Villa Park- adjusted to somewhere between £35,434,967.50 to £38,264,764.90. Profit on NBV between £7,086,993.50-£9,921,790.90 Note- this is adjusted for FFP purposes, fair value, not necessarily what would appear in the accounts. With that Aston Villa and Sheffield Wednesday absolutely fail- Derby may well not but then their ground the most modern of the 3, Derby has had solid land rise prices and more importantly they sold quite a few unlike the other 2.

Who says cheats don't prosper eh? While Sheff Wed fans may wish to kiss Chansiri for this, Gibson too should have given him one- of the Glaswegian variety. On a serious note if I was a club who had abided or even tried to and I saw this, especially the gross inflation with no real mitigating factors, I would struggle to have cheats in my boardroom at games or to share it with them and remain civil, calm and professional- I really would. Genuinely think ones like this, who effectively cheat the competition should be treated accordingly- as pariahs. Sounds like Chansiri has kicked Sky out of the training ground over the Bruce stuff- has he banned then? To me, no Sky access, no Sky money. Your club are arrogant and despicable. @Owl Visiting

Here is my take as well. Mike Thornton has received response from EFL on certain aspects- his essay on his site. Doesn't align so well with UEFA rules. My simple solution therefore is that any club who has complied during EFL period only via a sale and leaseback to owners who qualifies for Europe should be refused a UEFA License- whether they win one of the 2 Cups, or they finish 6th in the League within one or 2 seasons up- so Aston Villa basically, no alignment, no license- or in the highly unlikely event Sheffield Wednesday especially win the FA Cup/League Cup this season. Aston Villa might but fulfilment reached through this should be punished with no License for a UEFA competition until the 3 year rolling period has it fall off the books. https://www.mikethornton.xyz/ffp-eat-humble-pie-or-my-hat/ The potentially highly interesting aspect here too is that EFL FFP regs don't seem to align with UK Accounting law in some aspects? The article may or may not have a valid point. Back fo my UEFA license point though, the Regs on it seemingly say: This after all forms the basis for the regs/rules.

Looked in a bit more detail. That wage bill! Admittedly some of it will have been from sacking Carvahal and the fact it was 14 month accounts to July 2018, but wow! Underlying loss £35.5m or thereabouts.- the slightest downward adjustment to that ground transaction profit based on benchmarking could be disastrous- wouldn't that be sad! Think Reading's £20m NBV, £26.5m gross transaction was by far the most legit. Interesting thread on this one- BBC Sheffield journo. Cannot fathom how they kept the news of the transaction under wraps for so long and also how they managed to get it into 2017/18 season- and why it still does not appear on Land Registry, Sheffield Wednesday still listed as owner of Hillsborough it appears.

Yep, earlier this year or late 2018 he said they would indeed be in big- or very big- trouble. I have that feeling that it was backdated but I have no proof so it's purely a hunch based on what you say and what we know- someone on Owlstalk who I recognise from following Kieran Maguire on Twitter reckons that if a process has begun in financial year x, then if it's completed in financial year y that's alright- however there is still potentially nothing on Land Registry which is puzzling. Shouldn't if it is an RPT. They still need to produce their UK accounts but quite likely the Holding Company in Hong Kong.

I wasn't aware you could backdate and indeed if that Land Registry entry I found was correct and in date then this raises serious questions IMO. Unclear if the one who purchased it was Chansiri himself or his family- doesn't matter in terms of RPT rules, but still not wholly clear. Loss level probably that, an extension of accounting period meaning more wages amongst other things. Largely that though! Their wage bill did rise by £13.1m that said.

It was! However this one is ludicrous, it's possible there were some additions and subtractions which took it up to somewhere between £22-23m, but the sale price is truly farcical here- makes your transaction look reasonable and entirely sensible. Maybe with additions it was, but my instinct of Sheffield Wednesday being 2nd only to Aston Villa in my own "FFP League table dodginess" appears right. Even Peter Loehmann a Sheff Wed fan who writes on accounts and is pretty fair-minded, only assumed it was a £12m profit tor Hillsborough in his projections. Couple of other early points from a quick read of their accounts. Accounts only signed off and dated 20th June 2019- just the 3 weeks late. The profit- of £38m- appears in their profit and loss statement at the start but not in their cash flow. Odd. How can we be sure it took place within the relevant accounting period? We can't! I have my doubts as to whether it took place by 31st July 2018 but Land Registry would surely show all? How on earth did their losses soar to £35m without it? Mad.

BREAKING NEWS. Sheffield Wednesday accounts out- Hillsborough SOLD for £38m profit. Their accounts on their site, but not at CH yet. Auditors happy? Quick scan suggests losses of around £35m in 2017/18- without this of course. Makes a ******* mockery. Puzzled as to when the transaction took place too- doubtless it'd show on Land Registry?

Peter Loehmann FFP calculations for Sheffield Wednesday- though their 3 year accounts pure guesswork until their 2017/18 are released. They've failed FFP if he's right- based on the EFL's own formula it's a 4 point deduction- hell even with the ground sale it intimates they fail to July 2019 but the Bruce deal changes this- I also think some of those estimates are a bit over generous IMO because surely if accounts move by 2 months, while it would take in the Rhodes and Hunt departures which help to mitigate, it would also add 2 months to the wage bill? Plus surely gate receipts etc fall as Sheffield Wednesday did demonstrably worse in 2017/18 than the prior 2 playoff seasons? Nobody can do their own independent analysis though as there is still no sign of those accounts! One conspiracy theory of mine- just for fun- is a dispute with auditors as Chansiri trying to backdate the sale to 2017/18 accounts which is/has been preventing their release. Well this is odd- they've just announced the free transfer of Odubajo- good signing I feel and obviously was on the cards for a while. Can someone explain how you can fail to submit accounts to CH which are well overdue- yet announce any new signings- even free transfers? Surely surely accounts to CH should take precedence over any signings?

Took a quick look at Aston Villa. They had a big old write down in 2015/16 of Villa Park- nearly £45m. Reckon they paid nearly double the current accounts listed net book value basically much like Derby- unlike Derby though there appears to be no recent revaluation in accounts- did they have time for all that I wonder given it seemed to be cobbled together quickly to duck FFP- that being the case I wonder if it's why no public EFL statement on having passed/complied. Derby at least appear to have done things by the book to an extent e.g. getting in a valuer- Aston Villa it's harder to say- they certainly didn't seem to pay in the 25-35% bracket that Reading's owners did though.

Thanks- it just "feels" out of kilter though- the Madejski Stadium, a ground admittedly not as good as Pride Park and smaller, completion 1998- sold in 2017/18 to owners for £26.5m, book value £20m. Possible there's been no revaluation of any kind in that time- not looked at their 20 years of accounts. Major discrepancy not talking gross cost but everything else. Maybe there's been no upgrades in last 2 decades there. It is largely the fault of the EFL too for seemingly changing the regulations to allow this as a safety valve in terms of FFP- hopefully Aston Villa spend themselves stupid, come back down and fail FFP in the 3 years to May 2021, Derby stay down and that profit drops off the books from 2017/18 as it will and Sheffield Wednesday stay in a soft embargo, lose Bruce and slip further into issues. PS- Bruce quitting Sheffield Wednesday, potentially for Newcastle. Some rumours say it is due to "broken promises" on transfers- for that read soft embargo, unable to sign players except within strict limits. That would be karma- sure @chinapig @Davefevs @downendcity might concur? Shame eh, if it happens and if that part is also accurate. Unsure about @Owl Visiting ?

Does that factor in a 2007 revaluation at DRC method of £55m, and subsequent depreciation- and additions admittedly? Looked for the 2013 revaluation at DRC method, but seems to be listed nowhere.

£56.7m IIRC. Derby did additions though, and it was valued in 2007 at £55m- my basic, probably sketchy method has been to add on work- I assume "Additions" to constitute improvement to Pride Park and subtract depreciation in that timespan and that is how I came to the £50-55m range. Another method I have used, less viable I know, is rate of property/land prices in Derby between a certain period. Would have to check again but I believe that the net figure now for growth-depreciation fell within £50-55m range. A third method I have used- benchmarking against similar transactions. Reading's Madejski Stadium value £20m in books, sold to owners for a sale and leaseback for £26.5m- about 32.5% uptick. Again you've guessed it- fell to within £50-55m range! If the mooted figures for Hillsborough of £22-22.25m in accounts, sold for £30m then yet again it is that range. Villa Park is hard to value, there was a downward revaluation in 2016, and some non depreciable land- I'll continue to look at sale price-NBV so that one is unclear as to whether the uptick is 25-35% so far. Yet for all this, I fear what @Loon plage says is spot on- it'd be very hard to challenge a valuation such as Pride Park, especially since it has gone through and was approved by the EFL. The EFL incidentally have huge questions to answer for seemingly removing that clause- difficult legal ones I hope, for allowing this to be a method of offsetting FFP- would not be saying this if it was a third party, but IMO the methodology and documentation for such a valuation and transaction with a Related Party should be publicly available but that's likely wishful thinking.

Sounds like you know a fair bit about this stuff, valuation, methodology etc. Intrigued to know your take on £81.1m for Pride Park and especially in an RPT such as that. I've always had a feeling £50-55m or so but purely a layman's take looking at such factors as 2007 valuation (£55m), additions to Tangible Fixed Assets since then, minus cost of depreciation since that- the 2013 revaluation appears not to be public knowledge and not even in their accounts, perhaps that gave it a large rise. Were it a truly a Arm's length transaction for that cost at a sale and leaseback, with no RP involvement nobody could question the £81.1m IMO but other factors surely add doubt/query.

Interesting bit of news. Borner announced by Sheffield Wednesday- free transfer from Bundesliga 2, reasonable player more than likely, CB, apparently decent technically etc. Solid signing- but what makes it interesting and more than a bit odd, is that though it was clearly agreed in early May or mid May, whenever- is that his signing has been announced before their accounts have appeared at Companies House- their accounts for season 2017/18 which were due at end of April, which in turn was a presumably pre-arranged extension from end of February- reporting period was until 31st May 2018 and extended to July 31st 2018. To me, no accounts at CH, no signings until it happens. Within allowable wage limits of the terms of a soft embargo or not, failure to submit accounts as it stands at all, let alone in a timely manner to CH should supersede this surely!