Well Done Ireland.

[screech]

Must congratulate our true democratic Irish friends for voting no in there referendum choice, something the British people are being denied.

A result that once again shows that more people are against the corrupt over paid, sponging, failed politicians and there gravy train.

If the Irish have said no with all the help they have had financially then surely it's time to put a stop to this ethnic cleansing exercise that a few hundred people are all for.

Who has the most to lose, the failed politicians of Europe who have been given these jobs because they were mates of other politicians and there £360,000 salary and endless perks and backhanders or, the people of Europe who have lived without this bloated monster for hundreds of years.

June 13th deserves to be a bank holiday Europe wide, as a thankyou to the Irish people.

[fka dagest]

Ethnic cleansing?

[Nibor]

It's a pity that any debate on the EU immediately descends into mindless rhetoric and patriotic drum banging making it impossible.

For what it's worth I wasn't a fan of this "mini-constitution" but I'd like us to be part of the single currency because I reckon we'd all be better off not being as economically exposed to the whims of the ###### in the whitehouse as we currently are. Ta for the credit crunch Dubbayah.

[screech]

Ethnic cleansing?

Yes.

I am happy being English living in England, I want no part of becoming something I am not, I am English my family are English, I want that to remain. The EU don't want me as an Englishman, they want me as some kind of clone, where I should walk talk and think like another, shove it up there hairy arses, yes I am a little Englander, and proud.

This island has survived this long being itself, we can do everything we have ever done so without cuddling up to a Frenchman or German, and without giving them £14billion over 3 years. I'd rather see us become a state of America than part of the European super state, what have we got in common with them, nothing.

[fka dagest]

Yes.

I am happy being English living in England, I want no part of becoming something I am not, I am English my family are English, I want that to remain. The EU don't want me as an Englishman, they want me as some kind of clone, where I should walk talk and think like another, shove it up there hairy arses, yes I am a little Englander, and proud.

This island has survived this long being itself, we can do everything we have ever done so without cuddling up to a Frenchman or German, and without giving them £14billion over 3 years. I'd rather see us become a state of America than part of the European super state, what have we got in common with them, nothing.

I've never read such abject nonsense.

Every single person who you would probably consider an 'English person' is at least a European. The modern 'English' are ethnically Germanic, Norse, Celtic and 'French' and a few other bits possibly chucked in. The original 'English' were 'Germanic'.

This island has always been been part of the world and influenced by other parts of the world. Where do you think Christianity came from? Writing? Romanesque architecture? Gothic Architecture? Monasticism? Reformation? Printing? The list goes on and on.

I despise politicians as much as the next man, but the road down blinkered, petty nationalism isn't the way.

[screech]

I've never read such abject nonsense.

Every single person who you would probably consider an 'English person' is at least a European. The modern 'English' are ethnically Germanic, Norse, Celtic and 'French' and a few other bits possibly chucked in. The original 'English' were 'Germanic'.

This island has always been been part of the world and influenced by other parts of the world. Where do you think Christianity came from? Writing? Romanesque architecture? Gothic Architecture? Monasticism? Reformation? Printing? The list goes on and on.

I despise politicians as much as the next man, but the road down blinkered, petty nationalism isn't the way.

Hahahaha, get over yourself. Were we part of a European super state back then?

When the tired old arguments of we are not English comes out it makes me cringe, I have traced my family back at least 4 generations, guess what, they are English, how far do you want to go with this, back to Adam to prove your point?

If you want to dwell on the good old days of medieval Britain then I'm afraid you were born in the wrong century, who cares if we came from here there and everywhere, people migrate, they like somewhere and settle down, they adapt to there new land and this is modern Britain because of it.

Giving people no choice of becoming part of a European State is ethnic cleansing in my book, we don't even have ultimate control of our own laws for gods sake.

PC Britain has arrived at your house I see, Nationalism, oooow, look out, he's one of them, I'm waiting for the first neo *unacceptable word* jibe, surely can't be too long coming, burn me at the stake for being English and proud.

If you are in favour of joining the corrupt EU you wont have to wait that long, thats not your choice or mine, it's been made a long time ago, in a real democratic country the people get to vote, they did, and blew it out of the water.

[BigTone]

I'd rather see us become a state of America than part of the European super state

Thats right and then we wouldn't need to worry about England not making the European Championships.

We can look forward to watching the Soccer at Ashton Gate and maybe some Baseball every other weekend. And think of the catering.....32oz burger anyone???

I think not

[screech]

Thats right and then we wouldn't need to worry about England not making the European Championships.

We can look forward to watching the Soccer at Ashton Gate and maybe some Baseball every other weekend. And think of the catering.....32oz burger anyone???

I think not

Think of those lovely American cheerleaders at the side of the pitch Tone, on second thoughts, a man of your age might have a seizure.

[fka dagest]

Hahahaha, get over yourself. Were we part of a European super state back then?

When the tired old arguments of we are not English comes out it makes me cringe, I have traced my family back at least 4 generations, guess what, they are English, how far do you want to go with this, back to Adam to prove your point?

If you want to dwell on the good old days of medieval Britain then I'm afraid you were born in the wrong century, who cares if we came from here there and everywhere, people migrate, they like somewhere and settle down, they adapt to there new land and this is modern Britain because of it.

Giving people no choice of becoming part of a European State is ethnic cleansing in my book, we don't even have ultimate control of our own laws for gods sake.

PC Britain has arrived at your house I see, Nationalism, oooow, look out, he's one of them, I'm waiting for the first neo *unacceptable word* jibe, surely can't be too long coming, burn me at the stake for being English and proud.

If you are in favour of joining the corrupt EU you wont have to wait that long, thats not your choice or mine, it's been made a long time ago, in a real democratic country the people get to vote, they did, and blew it out of the water.

Depends when you're talking about. Pre-Anglo-Saxon 'Britain' was indeed part of a greater European super-state. Remember the Romans? Even in Anglo-Saxon England the people were ruled by Scandinavians and latterly Norse/French. Under the Angevins 'we' were part of a a greater English/French domain. Hey, why let the actual history of your beloved England get in the way of a stirring sentiment?

You're claim that four generations of Englishness confers absolute Englishness upon you is laughable. You'll have to go back hell of a lot further than that to convince me. I've gone back to the late 1600s with my Family Tree and I can assure you I'm not 100% English (whatever that means anyway). And I would guess that my ancestry is fairly typical rather than unusual.

No, PC Britain hasn't arrived at my door. I just believe I recognise politicians for what they are. Some raise the blue flag and say 'run to me, we're all in it together' and others raise the red flag and say 'they threaten your way of life'. It's all bull. The world all over, small groups seek to dominate the masses, it all depends on what symbols of subjection you want to follow. Personally, I think **** 'em all, I'll pick my own friends and form my own opinions.

I don't like EU parasitic bureaucrats & politicans, I don't like English/British bureaucrats & politicians. However, in truth I'd rather have either other than some group of numbskulls waving the flag of senseless, crass nationalism.

Ethic cleansing is no joke. To make comparisons between the likes of what happened under the Third Reich or Rwanda with an incipient Eu superstruture is pretty vulgar and ill-conceived in my opinion.

[screech]

Depends when you're talking about. Pre-Anglo-Saxon 'Britain' was indeed part of a greater European super-state. Remember the Romans? Even in Anglo-Saxon England the people were ruled by Scandinavians and latterly Norse/French. Under the Angevins 'we' were part of a a greater English/French domain. Hey, why let the actual history of your beloved England get in the way of a stirring sentiment?

Lets go back to Adam and Eve shall we, will it make you feel better? Boring old farts spouting off about shit that went down hundreds of years ago, what the bloody hell has that got to do with today? I'm English mate, born and bred.

You're claim that four generations of Englishness confers absolute Englishness upon you is laughable. You'll have to go back hell of a lot further than that to convince me. I've gone back to the late 1600s with my Family Tree and I can assure you I'm not 100% English (whatever that means anyway). And I would guess that my ancestry is fairly typical rather than unusual.

OK, so you want to arrive at the point where you are not English, fine, I was born in England therefore I am English, am I now meant to feel shameful to say that. If you are not happy with it, call yourself whatever you like, don't brand me something I am not though. It makes me laugh at how frightened you are at being called English, don't worry it's not an offence, yet.

No, PC Britain hasn't arrived at my door. I just believe I recognise politicians for what they are. Some raise the blue flag and say 'run to me, we're all in it together' and others raise the red flag and say 'they threaten your way of life'. It's all bull. The world all over, small groups seek to dominate the masses, it all depends on what symbols of subjection you want to follow. Personally, I think **** 'em all, I'll pick my own friends and form my own opinions.

As do I.

I don't like EU parasitic bureaucrats & politicans, I don't like English/British bureaucrats & politicians. However, in truth I'd rather have either other than some group of numbskulls waving the flag of senseless, crass nationalism.

So you have to be a numbskull to be patriotic?

Great, go and write a letter to the guys in Afghanistan and Iraq that are on the ground, what a bunch of numbskulls serving there country in far off lands. I'd take one of those anyday of the week than a politician signing my rights away as an Englishman without consultation.

Ethic cleansing is no joke. To make comparisons between the likes of what happened under the Third Reich or Rwanda with an incipient Eu superstruture is pretty vulgar and ill-conceived in my opinion.

Its ethnic cleansing in my book, taking away the rights from the people, forcing them all into a foreign body that they don't want, the movement of the governing bodies to eliminate borders, wealth, monetary value, peoples livelyhoods ie farmers and fisherman, and they are doing this with absoloute power, without once going to the people and asking if they want it. Why is that?

It cant be for the good of the masses because it would be an easy sell if there were huge benefits to it, so why did France, Holland and Ireland all reject it when given to the people to vote?

And did it stop them pressing ahead when it failed, nope, they decided to try again desperately trying to get this through somewhere else and it bit them on the arse again. Blimey, so much for this great united Europe, that's 3/3 so far for NO.

What would happen do you think if they asked the people of Britain? But theres no fear of that happening is there, because we have a bunch of freeloaders frightened to death of losing there jobs.

[Eddie Hitler]

To return to the start:

Well done Ireland!

One in the eye for the apparatchiks.

Love Europe in all its variety - hate the levelling EU super-state.

[fka dagest]

I don't see how you can refer to ethnicity without reference to history. You complain about 'ethnic cleansing' and then turn around and claim you don't care about what happened 100 years ago etc. If you aren't referring to Englishness as an ethnic category than it becomes even more meaningless. It just becomes a label to describe people who were born in a particular place under a particular set of bosses. For example, if some Muslim Kosovans give birth to a child in this country, can the future child claim to be as English as you? If the said son or daughter decides to embrace Islam and follow its rules is he or she still as English as you? If you accept this, than who has the right to say what 'Englishness' properly represents? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Perhaps you're more concerned with 'English' culture? Isn't modern English culture an amalgam of Indian, African, West Indian, European and world culture anyway?

I'm not anti-English and I'm not frightened of it. It's a meaningless label for me anyway. It makes no more difference to me than any other convenient tag, whether it be 'male' 'man' 'working class' 'bureaucrat' 'cynic'. I'm just me. 'English' was a designation given to me by someone else, if anything it represents the ideological fetters of a dominating class who only have to lift the flag or play the national anthem and everyone comes running. NOT ME.

You don't have to be a numbskull to be patriotic nor are all patriots numbskulls. If I referred to 'stupid women', it wouldn't mean I thought all women are stupid, only that a few/some of them are. The same applies to patriots.

I'm not too bothered about our serving troops. They're involved in active service because my bosses (and my bosses' bosses sent them there). They made their own life decisions within the opportunities presented to them by their social position. They're out there fighting a 'terrorism' that didn't affect this country until Tony Blair decided we needed to drop bombs on other people for the most spurious reasons. Still, I have some sympathy for them as individuals because they've got no more say in anything than I do. They're just further victims of the system. You know the system that makes us so proudly English.

'taking away the rights of people' has nothing to do with 'ethnic cleansing' . Ethnicity is a biological and historical designation. The modern 'English' are not being threatened with being wiped out. Anyway, what rights are you referring to? the right to work 40 hours a week for 50 years of your life? The right to 'elect' pre-determined candidates once every 5 years, so they can renege on their promises and misrepresent you? Once in English/British history this island was, in relative terms, an island of liberalism and free expression - those days are long gone and it's rapidly heading the other way.

[screech]

I don't see how you can refer to ethnicity without reference to history. You complain about 'ethnic cleansing' and then turn around and claim you don't care about what happened 100 years ago etc. If you aren't referring to Englishness as an ethnic category than it becomes even more meaningless. It just becomes a label to describe people who were born in a particular place under a particular set of bosses. For example, if some Muslim Kosovans give birth to a child in this country, can the future child claim to be as English as you? If the said son or daughter decides to embrace Islam and follow its rules is he or she still as English as you? If you accept this, than who has the right to say what 'Englishness' properly represents? I'd be interested to hear your thoughts.

Perhaps you're more concerned with 'English' culture? Isn't modern English culture an amalgam of Indian, African, West Indian, European and world culture anyway?

I'm not anti-English and I'm not frightened of it. It's a meaningless label for me anyway. It makes no more difference to me than any other convenient tag, whether it be 'male' 'man' 'working class' 'bureaucrat' 'cynic'. I'm just me. 'English' was a designation given to me by someone else, if anything it represents the ideological fetters of a dominating class who only have to lift the flag or play the national anthem and everyone comes running. NOT ME.

You don't have to be a numbskull to be patriotic nor are all patriots numbskulls. If I referred to 'stupid women', it wouldn't mean I thought all women are stupid, only that a few/some of them are. The same applies to patriots.

I'm not too bothered about our serving troops. They're involved in active service because my bosses (and my bosses' bosses sent them there). They made their own life decisions within the opportunities presented to them by their social position. They're out there fighting a 'terrorism' that didn't affect this country until Tony Blair decided we needed to drop bombs on other people for the most spurious reasons. Still, I have some sympathy for them as individuals because they've got no more say in anything than I do. They're just further victims of the system. You know the system that makes us so proudly English.

'taking away the rights of people' has nothing to do with 'ethnic cleansing' . Ethnicity is a biological and historical designation. The modern 'English' are not being threatened with being wiped out. Anyway, what rights are you referring to? the right to work 40 hours a week for 50 years of your life? The right to 'elect' pre-determined candidates once every 5 years, so they can renege on their promises and misrepresent you? Once in English/British history this island was, in relative terms, an island of liberalism and free expression - those days are long gone and it's rapidly heading the other way.

If you want the point scoring that bad, take it. 1 nil to you. Hoorah. What started as a simple well done to the Irish has got you searching deep into the underbelly of English History.

Does your wife get the same treatment when she asks what do you want for dinner?

[Nibor]

What started as a simple crock of unsupportable hyperbole and rhetoric

Corrected that for you.

There's no way your first post can be described as "a simple well done".

[screech]

On my high horse once again for you.

There's no way I can ever be wrong, quite simply, I am lording it again.

Snap. Good this.

[Nibor]

Snap. Good this.

OK then, try posting some sort of factual argument that supports this idea of ethnic cleansing. Your post reads like a BNP leaflet.

[CiderHider]

I'll be buggered if i can understand what the Lisbon treaty is all about, how it affects me etc... whats IS all the fuss about?

So the Paddys got to vote no when they're MPS wanted yes.

We didn't get a vote because there was nothing worth voting on, but because we were promised a vote we want one!? and because the MPS think we'll vote no when they want yes too?

Pathetic, a referendum on something we dint understand and probably means nothing anyway, didn't we vote a government in to make these bureaucratic decisions?

wow.. politics really is so incredibly dull.

[Eddie Hitler]

We didn't get a vote because there was nothing worth voting on, but because we were promised a vote we want one!? and because the MPS think we'll vote no when they want yes too?

Pathetic, a referendum on something we dint understand and probably means nothing anyway, didn't we vote a government in to make these bureaucratic decisions?

wow.. politics really is so incredibly dull.

Well done you have successfully absorbed the EU's approved line on the treaty.

Referenda are there for fundamental changes which is why France had one and Ireland had one.

The British government however decided that what was fundamental for our neighbouring countries wasn't fundamental for us and just pushed it through. They have subsequently tried to excuse this by suggesting that it was a mere administrative tidy-up.

That bit of spin has obviously found its target.

[Mr Mosquito]

I've never read such abject nonsense.

Every single person who you would probably consider an 'English person' is at least a European. The modern 'English' are ethnically Germanic, Norse, Celtic and 'French' and a few other bits possibly chucked in. The original 'English' were 'Germanic'.

This island has always been been part of the world and influenced by other parts of the world. Where do you think Christianity came from? Writing? Romanesque architecture? Gothic Architecture? Monasticism? Reformation? Printing? The list goes on and on.

I despise politicians as much as the next man, but the road down blinkered, petty nationalism isn't the way.

I'd also like to share screech's sentiments with regard to congratulating the people of the Irish Republic in rejecting the EU's undemocratic and tyrannical Lisbon Treaty. I, personally, would like to see closer links between the UK and the Russian Federation as they are a non European Union bloc - that way we may be able to negotiate cheap oil and gas from the Russians.

Always remember, our Labour Government is composed of known liars with Gordon Brown noser and his clique having lied on the weapons of mass destruction in Iraq and where's our vote on the European Union Lisbon treaty that they promised ????!!!!!!

[CiderHider]

Well done you have successfully absorbed the EU's approved line on the treaty.

Referenda are there for fundamental changes which is why France had one and Ireland had one.

The British government however decided that what was fundamental for our neighbouring countries wasn't fundamental for us and just pushed it through. They have subsequently tried to excuse this by suggesting that it was a mere administrative tidy-up.

That bit of spin has obviously found its target.

Meh, well i said i don't really understand it.

Is it true that when we were promised a referendum it was for something that is now void, what the government have bypassed is a watered down version of that or something, therefore does not necessitate a referendum? Or have i really been reading to many pro European papers?

Do you trust the general public to make an informed decision on this type of thing though? I don't, but i hardly trust the government to either, so we are in a state of mistrust and paranoia.

cant we simply just trade and shit like before, why do we have to complicate things ?

[BigTone]

Think of those lovely American cheerleaders at the side of the pitch Tone, on second thoughts, a man of your age might have a seizure.

I may be of a more mature age but I can assure you my brain is still in good working order......well the one in my trousers anyway !!!

[screech]

OK then, try posting some sort of factual argument that supports this idea of ethnic cleansing. Your post reads like a BNP leaflet.

Yes, there it is, didn't take long did it. The BNP card has been played, all reasoned argument gone in a flash. Well done.

[Eddie Hitler]

Meh, well i said i don't really understand it.

Is it true that when we were promised a referendum it was for something that is now void, what the government have bypassed is a watered down version of that or something, therefore does not necessitate a referendum? Or have i really been reading to many pro European papers?

Do you trust the general public to make an informed decision on this type of thing though? I don't, but i hardly trust the government to either, so we are in a state of mistrust and paranoia.

cant we simply just trade and shit like before, why do we have to complicate things ?

If the EU was just about trade we'd all be for it.

Two bits of legislation by the current government have meant I have ceased to believe them on this sort of thing. In each case they spoke of the intention and as this was anti-terrorist I was all for it. The practice has been somewhat different:

Anti-terrorism legislation - great, thought I, makes us all safer. Since used for ejecting an elderly heckler from a Labour conference and by councils spying on parents to make sure they do live in the catchment area of the school they've put their kids down for. Great.

Faster and easier mutual extradition treaty with the US - again sold as a weapon against terrorists. Great, thought I, makes us all safer. Two problems:

i) The US haven't passed their bit of the legislation, so it's a one way treaty

ii) The only use I'm aware of so far is the NatWest Three extradited to face trial in the US for financial crime. I'm fine with them being prosecuted, but they are certainly not terrorists which is who the government said this legislation was intended for.

So when the government say this 200+ page document of dense legalise is merely an administrative way to make the EU work better I for one do not believe them.

Whether you are in favour of the treaty or not is a separate matter. My point is that is so fundamentally important we are due the promised referendum.

[Nibor]

Yes, there it is, didn't take long did it. The BNP card has been played, all reasoned argument gone in a flash. Well done.

That's how your post reads, precisely because it does not contain any reasoned argument. Misusing terms like ethnic cleansing and baseless scaremongering that they're trying to attack England somehow is exactly the sort of puerile rubbish they pull.

Take a look at Eddie's post for an example of reasoned argument.

[Nibor]

If the EU was just about trade we'd all be for it.

That's pretty much what I think about it.

More trade with the EU and closer ties with Europe (hence weaker puppet strings with the USA) would be fantastic for the UK and our economy. We wouldn't have the credit crunch for one thing.

The problem is that trade agreements are always horse traded for political concessions that have no real business being enforced from Europe.

And of course as a massive bureaucracy it's expensive, slow and politically ineffective.

Other than guaranteeing basic consistency on things like human rights it should have been purely about trade IMO.

[BigTone]

At one point Ireland were the poorest nation in the EU. Now they are the 2nd richest after Switzerland (I think) due to the nmassive EU grants they have received. As history has shown over the years, Ireland seems to enjoy biting the hand that feeds them !!

[herman]

At one point Ireland were the poorest nation in the EU. Now they are the 2nd richest after Switzerland (I think) due to the nmassive EU grants they have received. As history has shown over the years, Ireland seems to enjoy biting the hand that feeds them !!

that can't really be true, since switzerland isn't in the EU...

but the irish are indeed a good example of a country with a big economic turnaround since during the EU

it works better for some countries than others

this thread is sadly a good reason why we shouldn't have a referundum on such issues because 1, people (me included) don't have time to read and understand the treaty (even if it made sense), and 2, people miss the real issues and turn it into an argument about johnny foreigner and stealing rights and it just degenerates into basic xenophobia

[Barrs Court Red]

The EU is a shady talking shop, slowly getting more and more ingrained in the workings of governments across Europe. Some see this as a good thing. Personally I think any organisation that wont reveal it's accounts, openly admits the auditors haven't signed them off in years is not one I want to see having any say in my life.

I always favoured a two tier Europe. Those who favour more integration can push on together, and those interested in the principle of a trading block continuing on the periphery.

[BigTone]

that can't really be true, since switzerland isn't in the EU...

Just as well I put the "I think" after Switzerland. I apologise but it does not alter the fact that Ireland has done very nicely out of Europe.

Having a referendum is fine but the Irish result also proves that the mainstream political parties in Ireland failed miserably in educating the public on the treaty. Not many people will agree to something they don't understand hence a large No vote. Unless of course you listen to Sinn Fein who now believe they have increased their following by untold thousands, which anyone in Ireland will tell you is not the case.

[Mr Mosquito]

At one point Ireland were the poorest nation in the EU. Now they are the 2nd richest after Switzerland (I think) due to the nmassive EU grants they have received. As history has shown over the years, Ireland seems to enjoy biting the hand that feeds them !!

The two richest European countries are Norway and Switzerland - the reason they are the richest countries in Europe is that they ARE NOT IN THE EU.

The EU sucks. I reckon we should join the Russian federation trading bloc - this would give England access to cheap oil and Gas and diamonds for our women. Also, that way missiles can be pointed at the hopelessly corrupt politicians in Brussels from England as well as from Russia.

Alternatively - and to quote kevinmabbuttshair of this forum - "Get out of the EU and join the North American Union, always had more in common with the US and Canada anyway, screw europe and it's bureaucratic gravy train."