Was Ernest Bevin A Bcfc Supporter?

[Percy Parrot]

The Red Army of the Soviet Union were heroes to many of my Grandparents' generation. I remember my very own Grandfather saying that while Germany was attacking Russia they weren't bombing England to such a great extent.The Red Army also became very skilled at smashing the very best military formations the Germans could launch against them - without the resolution of Stalin the USSR may have been conquered by Hitler. I don't doubt that this country would have fallen to the German SS Gestapo tyranny soon afterwards had that happened.

And Hitler was a hero of many people of my grandparents generation - doesn't make him right or good!

The Russians were a strong army - I do not doubt that. But it doesn't make Uncle Joe good.

And I do doubt about what would have happened to this country had Britain fallen. Hitler had no designs on Britain and would have been very happy to share the new world order with us. He actually respected Britain as a country. We only went to war because of his plans for the east.

[Cooter]

Marvin Elliott went to the Ernest Bevin College before joining Millwall...

...Maybe he knows?!?!? :noexpression:

[Percy Parrot]

After all Percy, would the man who killed 10 men be a hero if the 10 men were Hitler, Stalin, pot, Hussein, mao, et al?

But he only killed "evil" when it attacked him and had befriended it until that point. That isn't brave or courageous.

The 10 men I was referring to were the normal people of the USSR who happened to either a) have different political views to him or b) were seen as a power threat to him.

He didn't murder dictators. He murdered the ordinary man and gave rise to a system that was to cost the lives of up to 40m people in China and a regime that killed people simply for wearing glasses or speaking a foreign language (Cambodia).

[garlicbread]

Thank you redsontour, alas I'm no nearer to finding out if Ernest Bevin was a BCFC Supporter as PHILIP BELGRAVE initially enquired on the ziderheads website.

Percy Parrot has no real concept of the magnitude of the defeat that Britain faced early in World War 2. Our cities were smouldering and all seemed lost. Then Hitler lost interest in us and attacked Stalin's USSR with the most ferocious and formidable force ever seen in human history until that time. Winston Churchill and then Roosevelt, quite rightly, supported Joe Stalin's regime with money, armaments and food supplies - so I am in good company. Churchill's remark that if Hitler had invaded Hell (the USSR), he would at least have made "a favourable reference to the Devil (Stalin) in the House of Commons" was indication enough of Churchill's determination to have any ally in the British crusade against *unacceptable word* Germany.

"Politically, Churchill and Stalin were poles apart: one, the son of a British aristocrat, parliamentary democrat, free-trading capitalist and embodiment of imperial Britain at its zenith; the other, the son of a Georgian cobbler, a proletarian agitator who rose through the ranks of the Bolshevik Party to become the totalitarian head of the world's first Communist Power. For the bulk of their professional lives, Churchill and Stalin remained political adversaries. But for four years, from 1941-45, they were allies, brought together by the inexhaustible ambitions of Hitler's Germany." Edited from Churchill and Stalin: Documents from the British Archives, 1940-1953

Source: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/pub...urchill-stalin/

Whilst our nation benefited hugely from the actions of the soviets (who of course were acting completely in their own interests), the soviet model was an iron fist of a sociology that stifled creativity, subjugated an entire nation, had no freedom of speech, and murdered millions of innocent citizens.

It's easy to fall in love with the iconography and champion communism whilst basking in the warmth of free speech and democratic freedom...such luxuries that would have you sent to the gulag if excersized in Soviet Russia.

[Percy Parrot]

Thank you redsontour, alas I'm no nearer to finding out if Ernest Bevin was a BCFC Supporter as PHILIP BELGRAVE initially enquired on the ziderheads website.

Percy Parrot has no real concept of the magnitude of the defeat that Britain faced early in World War 2. Our cities were smouldering and all seemed lost. Then Hitler lost interest in us and attacked Stalin's USSR with the most ferocious and formidable force ever seen in human history until that time. Winston Churchill and then Roosevelt, quite rightly, supported Joe Stalin's regime with money, armaments and food supplies - so I am in good company. Churchill's remark that if Hitler had invaded Hell (the USSR), he would at least have made "a favourable reference to the Devil (Stalin) in the House of Commons" was indication enough of Churchill's determination to have any ally in the British crusade against *unacceptable word* Germany.

"Politically, Churchill and Stalin were poles apart: one, the son of a British aristocrat, parliamentary democrat, free-trading capitalist and embodiment of imperial Britain at its zenith; the other, the son of a Georgian cobbler, a proletarian agitator who rose through the ranks of the Bolshevik Party to become the totalitarian head of the world's first Communist Power. For the bulk of their professional lives, Churchill and Stalin remained political adversaries. But for four years, from 1941-45, they were allies, brought together by the inexhaustible ambitions of Hitler's Germany." Edited from Churchill and Stalin: Documents from the British Archives, 1940-1953

Source: http://www.fco.gov.uk/en/about-the-fco/pub...urchill-stalin/

I am completely aware of the situation in 1941 and don't doubt the importance of June that year. But first of all you can't credit the Soviets with more influence over the outcome of WW2 than the British Empire. Had we surrendered in 1940 while Stalin and Hitler were cuddling up in bed then there is no doubt at all of the outcome.

Second of all - Germany invaded Russia. Not the other way round.

Third of all one of the reasons you could argue Stalin entered in to the pact was because his military was not ready for a war. Why? Because he's just purged all his best military leaders!!!

And as your own quote proves - Churchill and FDR had no love for Stalin at all. Of course they supported him where they could - they were at war with Germany. The quote clearly states that they were "brought together by the inexhaustible ambitions of Hitler" not a mutual respect or admiration.

Had Britain and the empire folded as Hitler and everyone else predicted then the world would undoubtedly have been taken over by Germany. Russia would have stayed loyal until it realised it was being crushed quietly by Germany. As it turned out Hitler grew frustrated at Britain's refusal to surrender and opened up a second front (something he had always argued against) in order to force Britain. It was a massive miscalculation on Hitler's part - not a brave or moral decision by Stalin.

And yes they fought hard - every soldier knew that if they were captured or lines were broken by the Germans then they faced a most frightening and terrible fate. Being killed in action was certainly preferable to being captured so yes they fought hard.

[Mr Mosquito]

the soviet model was an iron fist of a sociology that stifled creativity,

How do you explain the creativity that was the Soviet space program as started by Joe Stalin himself ??!!! A space program that only had about one fifth the budget of its American counterpart.

[garlicbread]

How do you explain the creativity that was the Soviet space program as started by Joe Stalin himself ??!!! A space program that only had about one fifth the budget of its American counterpart.

Hmmmn, creativity for propoganda purposes. Doesnt really count does it?

[Mr Mosquito]

And I do doubt about what would have happened to this country had Britain fallen. Hitler had no designs on Britain and would have been very happy to share the new world order with us. He actually respected Britain as a country. We only went to war because of his plans for the east.

You what ??!!! You're in fantasy land.

Had Germany conquered England - Jews, Gypsies, free thinking intellectuals and Communists etc would have been taken to death camps. Suitable 'Aryan looking' English women used as breeding material, Englishmen used as slaves in German factories. That's what the Germans did in the German occupied sectors of Europe and the USSR and that was the fate awaiting my Grandparents had England lost.

[RedUn]

Brilliant thread guys, complete bolleaux most of it of course but what a laugh! ... made me very nostalgic for the good old forum days (when City themselves weren't very good) ... no doubt the thread will get shunted somewhere I'll never bother looking for it before 'ere long but hey thanks again!

[Mr Mosquito]

Brilliant thread guys, complete bolleaux most of it of course but what a laugh! ... made me very nostalgic for the good old forum days (when City themselves weren't very good) ... no doubt the thread will get shunted somewhere I'll never bother looking for it before 'ere long but hey thanks again!

RedUn, I know I'm easily sidetracked but the real purpose of this thread is to ascertain whether or not Ernest Bevin was a Bristol City FC supporter.

[walshy-shuffle-carl-shutt]

My god you people need to get out a little more what started off as a toungue in cheek thread. Has esculated into a fully on party political broadcast only 50 yrs too late.

Which reminds me wasnt it those bloody austrians who started the fight anyhow?

No don't answer that. I think that if this Bevin fella was a supporter there would be some pics from some local rag of the day depicting him with a scarf or rosette.

Frankly does anybody care.

For the record Stalin was a very throughly nasty little blighter and suffered from verticaly challenged man Syndrome. Still he had a RED Army

Sorry couldnt resist.

Oh Red Goblin for the Monster raving looney party - you have my vote.

[Mr Mosquito]

Oh Red Goblin for the Monster raving looney party - you have my vote.

Thanks, you obviously know I'd never stand for the Toff led Lib-Lab-Con European Union one party Police State that is the ruling political system of this country.

[mozo]

You what ??!!! You're in fantasy land.

Had Germany conquered England - Jews, Gypsies, free thinking intellectuals and Communists etc would have been taken to death camps. Suitable 'Aryan looking' English women used as breeding material, Englishmen used as slaves in German factories. That's what the Germans did in the German occupied sectors of Europe and the USSR and that was the fate awaiting my Grandparents had England lost.

Let's put it this way Gobbers:

If the chairman of Swindon Town was central to a deal that left the Gas bankrupt and folded, I would be pleased, but I still wouldn't champion Swindon Town, or any of their hierarchy.

You seem to be saying 'forget the work he did to maintain the odious moonrakers, let's admire the way he helped depose of the Rovers.'

[Mr Mosquito]

Let's put it this way Gobbers:

If the chairman of Swindon Town was central to a deal that left the Gas bankrupt and folded, I would be pleased, but I still wouldn't champion Swindon Town, or any of their hierarchy.

You seem to be saying 'forget the work he did to maintain the odious moonrakers, let's admire the way he helped depose of the Rovers.'

I like the analogy, but if Russia was ruled by Royalist Czars instead of Communists people would still see Russia as a threat. I don't understand why the leadership of Russia is continually slated and berated by our media and thus by the posters on here that believe the sensationalist media headlines. The fact remains that Russia was, by and large, on our side during two world wars against Germany. It's a bit sad that there's little or no respect for Stalin and the Red Army in this country for the role they played in the defeat of Hitler's Germany. The German dominated European Union - that we're continually subjugated by - could have something to do with the denial of Germany's *unacceptable word* past and the continual berating of Stalin's victorious and glorious Red Army.

[Percy Parrot]

You what ??!!! You're in fantasy land.

Had Germany conquered England - Jews, Gypsies, free thinking intellectuals and Communists etc would have been taken to death camps. Suitable 'Aryan looking' English women used as breeding material, Englishmen used as slaves in German factories. That's what the Germans did in the German occupied sectors of Europe and the USSR and that was the fate awaiting my Grandparents had England lost.

Germany didn't kill intellectuals for the sake of it. Communist Cambodia did.

Death camps? Similar to the ones Stalin used?

War crimes in German occupied Western Europe was NOTHING compared to the barbarism of the east. This reflected the completely different way he viewed the west and the east. His belief that England would surrender was based upon the assumption that England would protect its empire and allow Germany its new world order. It didn't happen.

Hitler had always sought a peaceful solution for England and that war broke out between the two countries was somewhat of a surprise to Hitler. He had seen no reaction over the anchluss or the invasion of Czechoslovakia. He believed he could do it again with Poland and was wrong.

Hitler would not have treated England in the same way he treated Poland or the east. Not in a million years. To suggest so is to deny his racial prejudice. France was afforded very different status remember, with Hitler, for most part of the war, happy with the Vichy government. He would have sought something similar for the UK and not fully blown occupation and subjugation like that of the east.

The fact that Halifax, among others, was prepared to discuss peace as late as 1941 was not so much a sign of desperation (has Germany been so definitely about to succeed then the likes of Haliax, under the plan you suggest, would have been running for the hills - not chatting peace plans!), but a sign that Britain knew it could negotiate a peace with Germany that would not see Britain occupied but neutralised and our empire kept in tact.

You only need to read articles from Mein Kampf to communication between Hitler and Lloyd George to see Hitler's admiration for Britain. Let it be in no doubt - it wasn't nice, Jews would have been expected to have been surrendered to the "final solution" but it was not the same plan or hatred Hitler had for the east. Untermenchen was reserved for the slavs and Russians and the awful death toll from that sphere reflects this.

Common historical thought recognises this.

And even if the UK was to be raped in such a horrific way then the fact we weren't was not due to any high morals on the part of Stalin - but due to a dogged determination by Churchill and the British people and an appalling tactical mistake by Hitler to believe that he could invade Russia successfully.

If Stalin was such an honourable, well intentioned chap then how could he sit by and watch while millions were being murdered on his door step from 39-41?

Britain and France stepped in - so could he. But he had killed his top generals, was cozy enough with Hitler and was too busy invading Finland!

[Percy Parrot]

I like the analogy, but if Russia was ruled by Royalist Czars instead of Communists people would still see Russia as a threat. I don't understand why the leadership of Russia is continually slated and berated by our media and thus by the posters on here that believe the sensationalist media headlines. The fact remains that Russia was, by and large, on our side during two world wars against Germany. It's a bit sad that there's little or no respect for Stalin and the Red Army in this country for the role they played in the defeat of Hitler's Germany. The German dominated European Union - that we're continually subjugated by - could have something to do with the denial of Germany's *unacceptable word* past and the continual berating of Stalin's victorious and glorious Red Army.

None of these comments are about Putin's Russia. They are about the Stalin's USSR. The Putin debate is something else (but again one that does not cover Russia in glory).

As I said many times before - I do not dismiss the Soviet influence in WW2. Not at all. It was a huge turning point. But one initiated by Hitler, not Stalin.

And to suggest that it's a German conspiracy is laughable. This is the country where hollocaust denial is a criminal offence (ask David Irving, even more so about Austria in his case!), where there is a MASSIVE Soviet war memorial in the capital city complete with Uncle Joe's own words on stone plinth, where children are taught plenty about their past, where there are massive memorials across the country to recognise its past.

You feel that we are subjugated by the EU!?! Try living in Stalin's Russia!

Anyway- night night Goblin. It's nearly 1am here!

[Mr Mosquito]

Germany didn't kill intellectuals for the sake of it. Communist Cambodia did.

Death camps? Similar to the ones Stalin used?

War crimes in German occupied Western Europe was NOTHING compared to the barbarism of the east. This reflected the completely different way he viewed the west and the east. His belief that England would surrender was based upon the assumption that England would protect its empire and allow Germany its new world order. It didn't happen.

Hitler had always sought a peaceful solution for England and that war broke out between the two countries was somewhat of a surprise to Hitler. He had seen no reaction over the anchluss or the invasion of Czechoslovakia. He believed he could do it again with Poland and was wrong.

Hitler would not have treated England in the same way he treated Poland or the east. Not in a million years. To suggest so is to deny his racial prejudice. France was afforded very different status remember, with Hitler, for most part of the war, happy with the Vichy government. He would have sought something similar for the UK and not fully blown occupation and subjugation like that of the east.

The fact that Halifax, among others, was prepared to discuss peace as late as 1941 was not so much a sign of desperation (has Germany been so definitely about to succeed then the likes of Haliax, under the plan you suggest, would have been running for the hills - not chatting peace plans!), but a sign that Britain knew it could negotiate a peace with Germany that would not see Britain occupied but neutralised and our empire kept in tact.

You only need to read articles from Mein Kampf to communication between Hitler and Lloyd George to see Hitler's admiration for Britain. Let it be in no doubt - it wasn't nice, Jews would have been expected to have been surrendered to the "final solution" but it was not the same plan or hatred Hitler had for the east. Untermenchen was reserved for the slavs and Russians and the awful death toll from that sphere reflects this.

Common historical thought recognises this.

And even if the UK was to be raped in such a horrific way then the fact we weren't was not due to any high morals on the part of Stalin - but due to a dogged determination by Churchill and the British people and an appalling tactical mistake by Hitler to believe that he could invade Russia successfully.

If Stalin was such an honourable, well intentioned chap then how could he sit by and watch while millions were being murdered on his door step from 39-41?

Britain and France stepped in - so could he. But he had killed his top generals, was cozy enough with Hitler and was too busy invading Finland!

Hitler sent his legions to hell - the dreaded Teutonic hell from Olde Norse mythology that the *unacceptable word* hierarchy worshipped. The hell of intense cold and hunger that was the Soviet winter. Stalin's engineers never made purpose built death camps with gassing chambers as Hitler's engineers did. *unacceptable word* Germany was a killing machine and its leadership worshipped various death cults. Churchill and Roosevelt were right to back Stalin's regime against this nightmare.

[garlicbread]

Stalin's engineers never made purpose built death camps with gassing chambers as Hitler's engineers did.

No, they were much more efficient by using hard labour and starvation.

[Drew Peacock]

Britain and France stepped in

And France pretty damn quickly stepped out again. Cheese eating surrender monkeys.

[havanatopia]

Red Goblin.. surprised you did not see Fidel with a City shirt. I presented him with one some years back.. so he ranks as one helluva big city fan. he said i have never been given a football shirt from a non-cuban team, i will cherish it. thats good enough for me.

Anyway.. Stalin was a Georgian, so Putin has no respect for him or anybody else. He is only interested in his own short arse self importance.

[Philip Belgrave]

BLOODY HELL:- that really started something.

It all began on the Ziderheads forum where the highly esteemed RED GOBLIN has his own area wherein he dispenses his Wisdom to the Masses.

(And if you haven't visited the Ziderheads you really should -as long as you don't mind copping a little vulgar abuse occasionally. Red Goblin's area alone is worth your attention).

The discussion initially concerned Winston Churchill, and I nominated Clement Attlee - to my colonial mind the best British P.M. since the war.

This led to his very able Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin ,being mentioned, a North Somerset man who ,geographically ,should have been a CITY SUPPORTER.

(No- Stalin ,nor the Red Army , nor the Gulags were mentioned !!!)

Red Goblin is certainly correct. If it can be proved that Bevin was a CITY SUPPORTER (as, being a man of discernment and intelligence ,he should have been) then he could be nominated as the highest ranking BRISTOL CITY SUPPORTER ever.

But can his footballing loyalties, if any , be proved ??

Can we make enquiries, shake the trees, try to ascertian the truth of the matter ?

Anybody from the Winford area who knew the family ?

[Percy Parrot]

And France pretty damn quickly stepped out again. Cheese eating surrender monkeys.

When you say they "stepped out" they got invaded. It wasn't so much a case of 'oh I can't be bothered' but 'woaah **** - we've just been invaded big style'. But yeah, pretty damn quickly.

And oi! Leave cheese out of this. It's a beautiful wonderful thing - and it just so happens that ours is better than French (as is our mustard IMO).

[Percy Parrot]

Hitler sent his legions to hell - the dreaded Teutonic hell from Olde Norse mythology that the *unacceptable word* hierarchy worshipped. The hell of intense cold and hunger that was the Soviet winter. Stalin's engineers never made purpose built death camps with gassing chambers as Hitler's engineers did. *unacceptable word* Germany was a killing machine and its leadership worshipped various death cults. Churchill and Roosevelt were right to back Stalin's regime against this nightmare.

Right to back him but for pragmatic rather than moral reasons. They decided to deal with the more aggressive, belligerant evil first.

I still refuse to label Stalin a "jolly decent fellow" or whatever it was you called him.

As you mentioned Roosevelt - don't even get me started on the American's...waiting until they were attacked in December!

[Chivs]

When you say they "stepped out" they got invaded. It wasn't so much a case of 'oh I can't be bothered' but 'woaah **** - we've just been invaded big style'. But yeah, pretty damn quickly.

And oi! Leave cheese out of this. It's a beautiful wonderful thing - and it just so happens that ours is better than French (as is our mustard IMO).

It's a matter of some concern for me but my wife prefers French cider to the proper West Country stuff.

Should the matter arise it will be mentioned on the divorce papers.

Anyway, back to Stalin, Hitler, Bevin and their relative merits.....

[mozo]

I don't know why people say Gary Glitter is such a bad bloke, I mean he made some catchy tunes and he lived in Bristol...

ahem

[bully]

BLOODY HELL:- that really started something.

The discussion initially concerned Winston Churchill, and I nominated Clement Attlee - to my colonial mind the best British P.M. since the war.

This led to his very able Foreign Secretary, Ernest Bevin ,being mentioned, a North Somerset man who ,geographically ,should have been a CITY SUPPORTER.

(No- Stalin ,nor the Red Army , nor the Gulags were mentioned !!!)

Red Goblin is certainly correct. If it can be proved that Bevin was a CITY SUPPORTER (as, being a man of discernment and intelligence ,he should have been) then he could be nominated as the highest ranking BRISTOL CITY SUPPORTER ever.

But can his footballing loyalties, if any , be proved ??

Can we make enquiries, shake the trees, try to ascertian the truth of the matter ?

Anybody from the Winford area who knew the family ?

I think he probably lived in Barrow Gurney at some time - and was immortalised in our theme song, being without doubt the brother ernie referred to and therefore a City fan...

I presume Cary Grant was a gashead, being a Horfield boy?

[garlicbread]

I think he probably lived in Barrow Gurney at some time - and was immortalised in our theme song, being without doubt the brother ernie referred to and therefore a City fan...

I presume Cary Grant was a gashead, being a Horfield boy?

Well in that case, he was a rubbish actor!

[Mr Mosquito]

Red Goblin.. surprised you did not see Fidel with a City shirt. I presented him with one some years back.. so he ranks as one helluva big city fan. he said i have never been given a football shirt from a non-cuban team, i will cherish it. thats good enough for me.

Anyway.. Stalin was a Georgian, so Putin has no respect for him or anybody else. He is only interested in his own short arse self importance.

I gave away a few of my old City shirts while in Cuba last month. Pity you didn't get a piccie of Castro wearing his City shirt because that would make him the highest ranking living Bristol City fan.

As per an intelligence report by 'kevinmabbuttshair' on my Red Goblin section of ziderheads.........

Actually Putin - as a Russian - has a hell of a lot of respect for Stalin the Georgian. Prime Minister Vladimir Putin wants to re-evaluate Stalin's record in a more positive light and this is being acheived via 'A History of Russia, 1900-1945' textbook. Clickety click.....

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/...n-textbook.html

[Nibbler]

Unlikely, I live in St. Werburghs and there's a house here with a blue plaque that says Bevin lived in it. That would put him firmly in enemy territory.

[Will Rollason]

Unlikely, I live in St. Werburghs and there's a house here with a blue plaque that says Bevin lived in it. That would put him firmly in enemy territory.

well i live 100yrds from the mem but that don't make me a gashead............ does it??? :noexpression: