Mcindoe In The Wdp This Morning

[Andy Horsman]

I am a big McIndoe fan, but he hasn't delivered this season, and his perpetual drifting in field has made a lot more work for Fonts and McAllister on the left side of our back 4.

McIndoe this morning suggests that there is a gap in quality between City and Wolves and Birmingham. Fair point, many of us would agree that we haven't perhaps brought in a true replacement for Carle, a real right winger and maybe a striker who is ready for the Championship (no disrespect to John Akinde, I think scouting the lower leagues is vital, look at Michael Kightly!!).

However, this type of public airing of discontent, is not helpful, we're still in the play-off places and we have been beaten by the likely top 2 finishers. Improving the depth and quality of the squad is one thing, but having had a stinker against his old club, a bit of introspection would have been more appropriate from MM in my humble opinion.

It's hardly like his dazzling form is carrying the rest of the team!!

[sunningdalered]

I am not a McIndoe fan. You are quite right - if he cares to examine that 'gulf' in class a little further, he will find himself to be part of it.

[Guest DanC]

The reason he drifts in field is because of the lack of good service to him on the wing so he has to come into the centre to pick up the ball himself. We need someone like what Tinnion was like in that season he helped Murray score all them goals.

[Redhyde]

McIndoe is right. We weren't good enough for automatic promotion last season, with the exception of Maynard haven't strengthened. What did we expect? Well we didn't. I don't have a problem finishing 7-12th in this league. However some of the more ambitious players like McIndoe do.

If we want to challenge for automatic promotion we need to spend about £4-5 million on the squad. We won't do that in one go and that's at the risk of losing our better players. We in some ways did too well last season and the expectation not really amongst us fans has gone up, but obviously among the players.

We can finish 4-6th in this league with the squad we have. But we can also finish much lower. The more you spend the more chance you have of success. We're prime for putting a few million in now to push us onto the next level. But if we don't i'm very content to finish top half considering where we've come from. Would be a waste of a good team if it gets broken up due to lack of investment though.

Not really having a go at SL, can't expect him to plough more money in as a gamble to go up but it's a shame we don't seem to have the finances to build upon the very successful base we have now. Anyone know someone who wants a football club?

[chinapig]

The reason he drifts in field is because of the lack of good service to him on the wing so he has to come into the centre to pick up the ball himself. We need someone like what Tinnion was like in that season he helped Murray score all them goals.

Not so. GJ quoted in the Sunday Independent yesterday:

.. insisted it is not prudent to play with two wingers hugging the touchline in a lot of Championship games. "That is why we ask our wingers to tuck in against a lot of sides - you can't be too open at this level because opponents have the players to capitalise."

So McIndoe is just obeying orders.

I doubt Mick McCarthy would agree with Gary mind you as he plays with two out and out wingers without any problem it seems. Gary prefers to sacrifice some attacking potential for being more solid.

[rockin-robin]

Not so. GJ quoted in the Sunday Independent yesterday:

.. insisted it is not prudent to play with two wingers hugging the touchline in a lot of Championship games. "That is why we ask our wingers to tuck in against a lot of sides - you can't be too open at this level because opponents have the players to capitalise."

So McIndoe is just obeying orders.

I doubt Mick McCarthy would agree with Gary mind you as he plays with two out and out wingers without any problem it seems. Gary prefers to sacrifice some attacking potential for being more solid.

Really can't agree with gary on this one. We play our best football when the two wingers "hug" the touchline.

Me thinks Sir Gary is trying to cover up for his tactical mistakes?

[edson]

I never really understand this rigidity of formation.

Surely there are two basic elements to positional play -

1. When the opposition are in possession, where the wide players tuck in and tighten up the space in midfield.

2. When we're in possession, where the wide players pull out wide and spread the play and increase the options.

It's a fairly basic view, but it's how I was always told to play many years ago and generally helps to prevent permanently being on the back foot, especially away from home.

[Nibor]

I never really understand this rigidity of formation.

Surely there are two basic elements to positional play -

1. When the opposition are in possession, where the wide players tuck in and tighten up the space in midfield.

2. When we're in possession, where the wide players pull out wide and spread the play and increase the options.

It's a fairly basic view, but it's how I was always told to play many years ago and generally helps to prevent permanently being on the back foot, especially away from home.

Spot on. Tucking in when attacking doesn't add any defensive value for us, just makes the oppositions defensive job easier.

It's quite clearly not working and it needs to change.

[mcbcfc]

McIndoe is right. We weren't good enough for automatic promotion last season, with the exception of Maynard haven't strengthened. What did we expect? Well we didn't. I don't have a problem finishing 7-12th in this league. However some of the more ambitious players like McIndoe do.

If we want to challenge for automatic promotion we need to spend about £4-5 million on the squad. We won't do that in one go and that's at the risk of losing our better players. We in some ways did too well last season and the expectation not really amongst us fans has gone up, but obviously among the players.

We can finish 4-6th in this league with the squad we have. But we can also finish much lower. The more you spend the more chance you have of success. We're prime for putting a few million in now to push us onto the next level. But if we don't i'm very content to finish top half considering where we've come from. Would be a waste of a good team if it gets broken up due to lack of investment though.

Not really having a go at SL, can't expect him to plough more money in as a gamble to go up but it's a shame we don't seem to have the finances to build upon the very successful base we have now. Anyone know someone who wants a football club?

Spot on

[edson]

Spot on. Tucking in when attacking doesn't add any defensive value for us, just makes the oppositions defensive job easier.

It's quite clearly not working and it needs to change.

That's an interesting point and one I was making yesterday during the Wigan v Man City game.

Wigan are a well drilled team and defend from the front. To my mind, Zaki was the best defensive player on the pitch, because he made life difficult for Man City from the edge of their own area, which lead to mistakes.

Defending is too often seen as something to do in the final third of the field, when it is actually something that is most effective when done all over the pitch.

Zaki set the tone for the game with the way he harrassed Dunne, which in turn allowed the midfield to step up and press the Man City midfield high up the pitch and pick off possession.

Any team that can keep Man City at bay, despite having Titus Bramble in their back four, is clearly defending well all over the pitch, rather than allowing the opposition to have possession until they get midway inside your own half.

Heskey does a similar job for England. Let's face it, Capello doesn't pick him because he's England's best striker. He picks him because he roughs up and hustles defenders, causing mistakes, leading to turnovers of possession and space for the better footballers in the side.

The best example I can think of in my time watching football is Ian Rush, who was, in my opinion, Liverpool's best defender as well as their best striker during his prime. Anyone can play well with time to make decisions. It's only when you minimise the time that players have to make decisions that they make mistakes in areas that you can capitalise on.

[chinapig]

That's an interesting point and one I was making yesterday during the Wigan v Man City game.

Wigan are a well drilled team and defend from the front. To my mind, Zaki was the best defensive player on the pitch, because he made life difficult for Man City from the edge of their own area, which lead to mistakes.

Defending is too often seen as something to do in the final third of the field, when it is actually something that is most effective when done all over the pitch.

Zaki set the tone for the game with the way he harrassed Dunne, which in turn allowed the midfield to step up and press the Man City midfield high up the pitch and pick off possession.

Any team that can keep Man City at bay, despite having Titus Bramble in their back four, is clearly defending well all over the pitch, rather than allowing the opposition to have possession until they get midway inside your own half.

Heskey does a similar job for England. Let's face it, Capello doesn't pick him because he's England's best striker. He picks him because he roughs up and hustles defenders, causing mistakes, leading to turnovers of possession and space for the better footballers in the side.

The best example I can think of in my time watching football is Ian Rush, who was, in my opinion, Liverpool's best defender as well as their best striker during his prime. Anyone can play well with time to make decisions. It's only when you minimise the time that players have to make decisions that they make mistakes in areas that you can capitalise on.

Very well put but wouldn't Gary agree? He seems to be saying the first job of our wingers is to defend. Similarly for Heskey read Adebola. Neither will score many goals but put pressure on defenders. Lee Trundle doesn't so his superior talent counts for nothing in Gary's system.

Given that Gary will not change his philosophy our strikers will continue to get few chances and we can expect more one goal wins in low scoring games (I hope!). To score 15 goals Maynard will need to take a high percentage of his chances. Someone like Kevin Doyle however could miss 50% and still get 20+ goals as he will get so many chances.

On that basis I would expect Wolves, Reading and perhaps Brum to pull away at the top leaving the rest of us to fight for 3 places.

[chinapig]

McIndoe is right. We weren't good enough for automatic promotion last season, with the exception of Maynard haven't strengthened. What did we expect? Well we didn't. I don't have a problem finishing 7-12th in this league. However some of the more ambitious players like McIndoe do.

If we want to challenge for automatic promotion we need to spend about £4-5 million on the squad. We won't do that in one go and that's at the risk of losing our better players. We in some ways did too well last season and the expectation not really amongst us fans has gone up, but obviously among the players.

We can finish 4-6th in this league with the squad we have. But we can also finish much lower. The more you spend the more chance you have of success. We're prime for putting a few million in now to push us onto the next level. But if we don't i'm very content to finish top half considering where we've come from. Would be a waste of a good team if it gets broken up due to lack of investment though.

Not really having a go at SL, can't expect him to plough more money in as a gamble to go up but it's a shame we don't seem to have the finances to build upon the very successful base we have now. Anyone know someone who wants a football club?

Following on from the strange situation with Brad and with MM now breaking ranks are there cracks appearing in our famous spirit? Gary will not take kindly to being told he should have bought more or better players I suspect.

However I cannot see Steve loosening the purse strings any more. Next step is having to sell to buy with Orr and Basso being most likely since Gary seems to think he has replacements already.

[Redhyde]

Just a point straying onto England and Capello. We shouldn't be surprised this is the way he wants a forward to play. Marco Delvecchio was utilised exactly to the same extent under him for Roma. Except he was a 1 in 3/4 goal threat. You had him (Heskey) Totti (Rooney) Montella (Err Defoe but Owen really) hence the striking options we see for the national team.

Hey it's why Bas Savage worked and Heskey despite them not being the goal threat. And this is why we've got Akinde in i assume. Someone with the physical ability to lead the line but the pace to harry and chase. His fitness work won't be fun but he could be immense if we get it through his head the job he can do. It's also why we don't see Brooker even when "fit" because he's nowhere near fit enough to do the job GJ wants of his forwards for any period of time.

But if we're working with defensive forwards. Why have we got the other as a poacher when the big chaser is usually paired with a player who can drop off? Because if Adeboal is all over chasing, if we do win it back he's out of position for the counter, leaving Maynard the only one up front and being made to look lightweigth as he has to play the ball with his back to goal. Maynard should drop deeper, or we should go 4-5-1 if we want our big forward to harry and chase.

[chinapig]

Just a point straying onto England and Capello. We shouldn't be surprised this is the way he wants a forward to play. Marco Delvecchio was utilised exactly to the same extent under him for Roma. Except he was a 1 in 3/4 goal threat. You had him (Heskey) Totti (Rooney) Montella (Err Defoe but Owen really) hence the striking options we see for the national team.

Hey it's why Bas Savage worked and Heskey despite them not being the goal threat. And this is why we've got Akinde in i assume. Someone with the physical ability to lead the line but the pace to harry and chase. His fitness work won't be fun but he could be immense if we get it through his head the job he can do. It's also why we don't see Brooker even when "fit" because he's nowhere near fit enough to do the job GJ wants of his forwards for any period of time.

But if we're working with defensive forwards. Why have we got the other as a poacher when the big chaser is usually paired with a player who can drop off? Because if Adeboal is all over chasing, if we do win it back he's out of position for the counter, leaving Maynard the only one up front and being made to look lightweigth as he has to play the ball with his back to goal. Maynard should drop deeper, or we should go 4-5-1 if we want our big forward to harry and chase.

Hear hear. Gary told us Gavin Williams was a midfielder who could play in the hole, get beyond the front man and score goals. So far he has played on the wing and obviously not well enough in Gary's eyes. Pointless having someone like Maynard with defensive tactics.

[Alex_BCFC]

I agreed with a lot of what McIndoe said really. He does come out with some crap sometimes but he is right about our squad- it isn't strong enough to be top 2 and maybe not top 6.

[easton boy]

If I was GJ, I think I would be pulling Mr McIndoe over to one side after training today.

Yes we all know the obvious deficiencies with our squad.

Ye we all knew(without many publicly, and rightly so) that Wolves have a better squad/team than us.

But for one of your "Star" names to come out in public and criticise the current squad, and reading between the lines(not that difficult actually), the clubs summer transfer policy, is in my view a bit ritch.

MM knew the situation when he moved here i.e. we don't splash £10m per close season; we have a smallish squad(in terms of quality challenging for 1st team places), so to bitch about it now so early in the season, 3 months from the January window seems quite fruitless.

Gj's post match comments about "Don't let it ruin our season", which I'm sure many would have thought strange coming off of the back of a defeat against one of the pre-season promotion favourites, probably wasn't aimed at the fans, but possibly aimed at certain members within his own squad.

[Mr Ed]

McIndoe makes a point about us lacking possession and not getting a kick at Wolves yet the stats suggest we had 57% of possession. Is it a case of the stats being misleading or did we have possession but not in areas where we were going to trouble the opposition?

[Robbored]

But for one of your "Star" names to come out in public and criticise the current squad, and reading between the lines(not that difficult actually), the clubs summer transfer policy, is in my view a bit ritch.

McIndoe didn't actually slag of the squad. What he said was that when other teams are strengthening around you and you don't strengthen enough you get found out. He also said that City aren't currently playing well enough to live with the likes of Wolves and Brum.He said that both of them outplayed us - which we all know is true.

He also said that the class and calibre is higher this year and begining to show.

I like to hear players being candid but to misrepresent what he said risks making a crisis out of one defeat.

[cider head]

Not so. GJ quoted in the Sunday Independent yesterday:

.. insisted it is not prudent to play with two wingers hugging the touchline in a lot of Championship games. "That is why we ask our wingers to tuck in against a lot of sides - you can't be too open at this level because opponents have the players to capitalise."

So McIndoe is just obeying orders.

I doubt Mick McCarthy would agree with Gary mind you as he plays with two out and out wingers without any problem it seems. Gary prefers to sacrifice some attacking potential for being more solid.

gj saying that seems he knows his middle two are defensive and not very good at creating going foward so he has to call the wide 2 inside more for support, you can stay wide without hugging the touchline but it does get silly when Mcindoe

is hugging the center circle and even more so vs donny Mcindoe and sproule going down the left over lapping like wing backs?? we do need a creative central midfielder, the 2 we have are doing a great defensive job but it won't get you goals

to often and as for tinnion he did most of his work like beckham at man utd on the wing his passing doing the work and tins letting mickey bell go down the wing doing the work via wing back and feeding the goat!! we got the tools but we are using a spanner to unscrew a screw.

[STP]

McIndoe makes a point about us lacking possession and not getting a kick at Wolves yet the stats suggest we had 57% of possession. Is it a case of the stats being misleading or did we have possession but not in areas where we were going to trouble the opposition?

Have we ever recovered from losing Tinman with his one Twos or 50 yarders to Scotty?Everyone from Marcus stewart to dave cotteril has gone lookin for that wide ball and bringin it back inside to run at goal.The service from Orr + Mccalister is a whoose and pray.Sproule is the only player this season with 1 decent cross at home.The problem is no one expects it hence no one is ready!!Mat Jarvis looked class at the Gate for Gillingham a couple of seasons ago but we showed no interest.

[edson]

Have we ever recovered from losing Tinman with his one Twos or 50 yarders to Scotty?Everyone from Marcus stewart to dave cotteril has gone lookin for that wide ball and bringin it back inside to run at goal.The service from Orr + Mccalister is a whoose and pray.Sproule is the only player this season with 1 decent cross at home.The problem is no one expects it hence no one is ready!!Mat Jarvis looked class at the Gate for Gillingham a couple of seasons ago but we showed no interest.

Well, we've been promoted since then, so I'd say we have recovered, yes.

[B1ackbird]

They interviewed the bloke just after he had an afternoon of grief from the Wolves fans and obviously disappointed about the result. Your going to get games away from home in this division where you are'nt going to have it all your own way, especially top of the table teams like Wolves!

At least Steve Bull was'nt scoring 4/5 against us again..

[redrebel]

If every member of the squad put in the work MM does then I for one would be happy.He works as hard in defence as attack and is one of the best signings GJ ever made.

[Robbored]

Mat Jarvis looked class at the Gate for Gillingham a couple of seasons ago but we showed no interest.

Thats where you are very wrong. City made a genuine effort to sign Jarvis but at the time City were in the same division as the Gills and he wanted to go a higher division and who can blame him?

[sunningdalered]

They interviewed the bloke just after he had an afternoon of grief from the Wolves fans and obviously disappointed about the result. Your going to get games away from home in this division where you are'nt going to have it all your own way, especially top of the table teams like Wolves!

At least Steve Bull was'nt scoring 4/5 against us again..

After the game MM had on Sat I'm surprised he didn't just talk about the unseasonably lovely weather - and stay well away from talking about gaps in skill and quality!!

[bh_red]

top scorer so far, despite not being on the best of form in some games, personally Isee him and Marv as our best 2 midfielders by a mile at the club, just need to other quality additions, which is disapoiting considering the hype about Williams.

however I find it quite interesting that some people are commenting on "how poor his form has been this season", when he actually seems to be on the verge of a possible Scotland Call up according to George Burley.

[lugger]

Last season MM was on fire and some of his interviews he said some things that were very self assured and you'd have to say he was walking the walk to back it up. He's said something that is perhaps not exactly "on message" but he will always be one of the more outspoken players - its in his nature. I'd rather he kept it to himself but controversy seems to follow this boy around. Lets hope its a one off and GJ has a word!

[easton boy]

McIndoe didn't actually slag of the squad.

He said: "I thought we were poor. We didn't get possession of the ball and allowed them to get at us from the start. To be honest, I thought we were scared of them and stood off them.

"They had so much possession they were able to create really good chances, while we only really created half chances. We're better than that and I'm very disappointed.

hmmm, not a ringing endorsement though is it?

What he said was that when other teams are strengthening around you and you don't strengthen enough you get found out. He also said that City aren't currently playing well enough to live with the likes of Wolves and Brum.He said that both of them outplayed us - which we all know is true.

He also said that the class and calibre is higher this year and begining to show.

I like to hear players being candid but to misrepresent what he said risks making a crisis out of one defeat.

hardly think my original post was misrepresenting him, and like I said previously if I was Gj I would have been having words today.

Although one funny bit(whilst MM thinks he's the manager - and then suddenly remembers his place)

"Wolves are better than they were a couple of seasons ago when I was here and their squad is definitely better than ours. We always assess things after nine or 10 games and I think we need to look at things."

then thinks oops bugger talking aloud again so adds-

"But that's something for the manager and the chairman, it's not for me to say what we need."

(but you just did Michael - not that anybody with a pair of eyes would fail to notice our current defficiencies)

[Red Robin]

I am a big McIndoe fan, but he hasn't delivered this season, and his perpetual drifting in field has made a lot more work for Fonts and McAllister on the left side of our back 4.

McIndoe this morning suggests that there is a gap in quality between City and Wolves and Birmingham. Fair point, many of us would agree that we haven't perhaps brought in a true replacement for Carle, a real right winger and maybe a striker who is ready for the Championship (no disrespect to John Akinde, I think scouting the lower leagues is vital, look at Michael Kightly!!).

However, this type of public airing of discontent, is not helpful, we're still in the play-off places and we have been beaten by the likely top 2 finishers. Improving the depth and quality of the squad is one thing, but having had a stinker against his old club, a bit of introspection would have been more appropriate from MM in my humble opinion.

It's hardly like his dazzling form is carrying the rest of the team!!

[/quote

He is right we have seen a big gap between Blues and Wolves however the whole team need to look in the mirror,top two is a huge step,playoffs are the aim.

Maynard is still learning his trade and is not the answer up front,after 8 games he needs to improve his all round game.

GJ has the man in his squad that would and could do damage,however the guy cannot play more than two games without being injured alah STEVE BROOKER.

I have been saying for three years our striking options are not good enough,and I still maintain that as of today.

BCFC need to get a strike partnership that can hit 25 to 30 goals a season sadly this has been missing for a long while.

[Spud55]

Can't say i have any problem with one of our few players to come out of the first 10 or so games with any credit, and thats with him not playing as well as he can, yet he's still been better than Johnson, Ivan, Adebloa, Maynard, pretty much everyone baring the defence. The only time we have looked remotley threatening is when he has the ball as the rest of our midfield is so incredibly devoid of any inventiveness it's untrue. McIndoe and Elliot are the only 2 of our regular starting midfielders anywhere near the quality reqired to compete with the best teams in this league. we have only got those two who when you get the good sides in the league who won't stand off you and close down and deny space and have the ability of lower prem players to exploit this, we have nothing in the middle.

we may as well play a 4-1-5 as that is where everyone ends up, both wingers have to tuck in to cover for Elliot or Skuse who are completely on thieir own in central midfield trying to do 2 peoples jobs because johnson is sat 20 yards behind them spraying pointless 5 yard sideways balls which are completely pointless then eventually giving the ball to carey or McCombe or fonts who he usually plays into trouble so they have to hump it long. Until we replace Lee johnson with a player with some actual creative ability we will not be able to compete with the best in this league. I don't think it's nepotism i think he'd play anyone there who is there just to work hard and thats about it, same with his facination with playing a big tallentless lumox up front, we saw it with savage and adebola is not much different, he's a good finisher but his touch is about as good as mine, and he just seems to blunder through people, with seemingly absolutely no inclination of where his next touch is going to take him. When someone thinks adebola is the best option up front you have then there is something very, very wrong, as we saw against birmingham he's bloody dismal, crap in the air and fairly crap on the deck.

He's not helped by the midfield but you could stick him up front for chelsea and he'd still be a crock of shite. Brooker when fit is the better option in every concievable way, he's better in the air, hes considerably better on the floor and his touch is better.

We have half of an icnredibly good side, we have the mentality and we have some of the players to make this side very, very good. We have the work ethic and the spirit, all we lack is the little bit of quality, so what if some games you have to carry a player for 85 minutes if in the other 5 he scores you or makes you 2 goals, why are Hull doing so well in the Premier League while WBA and Stoke struggle ? Hull have a similar mentality to us, they work ahrd and do the basics well, but they also have Giovani who has sheer quality, he's not the hardest worker and he will have some games where he may as well not be there, but then he'll score you a screamer to set up the best result in your clubs history. WBA have a lot of ability but no grit, Sotke have enormous amounts of grit but not enough quality, Hull have the balance of the two and it's why they are a much better side, it's why they were the better side at Wembley, it's why they went up and we didn't. In this league you can occasionally get away only having one attribute to your team, but only when it's a crap league, West brom would get battered by Birmingham and Wolves, same for Stoke, both of those sides can mix it with the big physical teams, but can also outplay and outclass the footballing sides. And thats where we need to be if we want to compete at the top of this division. johnson wouldn't get near the birmingham first team, neither would Sproule, McIndoe might but probably wouldn't, Elliot is the only midfielder who would have a look in at either Birmingham or Wolves, we need to be looking to have 4 players at that level and then players at the sort of johnson level for cover and competition. Brian Howard has just been alowed to leave on loan yet we don't go anywhere near him, Cris commons is leaving Forest on a free we ignore him, countless other players are available but we ignore them. Now it's incredibly unlikley Commons would have come here, but you don't know unless you ask, we don't have the prestige of 90% of the other teams in this league, but is gavin williams really the best we could get ? what about looking at arsenals youth teams and picking a player or two for a year ? or man U or Liverpool ? we completely ignore the wealth of resources out there and still go almost exclusively with lower league players, now i'm not saying we should be ignoring them Kightly is a great example, but they are buys for the future, Maynard is a buy for the future as as Akinde, loaning in a right winger from arsenal is a move for the now, the guy Derby have got is awesome, but again we don't go anywhere near him, in january we should be seriously considering players like Sturridge from Man City depending on what they do, 1-2 seasons ago people like Freddy Sears at west ham should be on our radar, even if we don't get them we should at least be looking and i get the distinct impression that we don't even bother half the time.