Debate Is Good

[Rich]

Why do some people take debate as a form of critiscism only and not a way of raising issues/standards which might be of concern to some people.

Recently there has been much debate of players ability or lack of, it would seem that by raising these issues a new level of performance has been aimed for and achieved by the whole team.

I don't agree with hounding and booing any player that plays for city, but at the same time constructive critiscism and a will not to let standards slip should also be used to carry our club forwards, I'm sure Garry Johnson uses these tacticts so why not the supporters.

If you set your sights low and are happy with mediocrity then that's what you get, we don't have to look far to see the effects of that.

So debate is good, it might not always be nice and I don't advocate abuse of anyone but let's keep demanding the best and debating how we can get it.

[Tales From The Front]

Why do some people take debate as a form of critiscism only and not a way of raising issues/standards which might be of concern to some people.

Recently there has been much debate of players ability or lack of, it would seem that by raising these issues a new level of performance has been aimed for and achieved by the whole team.

I don't agree with hounding and booing any player that plays for city, but at the same time constructive critiscism and a will not to let standards slip should also be used to carry our club forwards, I'm sure Garry Johnson uses these tacticts so why not the supporters.

If you set your sights low and are happy with mediocrity then that's what you get, we don't have to look far to see the effects of that.

So debate is good, it might not always be nice and I don't advocate abuse of anyone but let's keep demanding the best and debating how we can get it.

Fully agree.

Football is about winning, certianly at the professional level.

There is a fine dviding line between being totally happy clappy or outright negative. But I do despair sometimes though particulalry when City go through a rough patch. And people debate issue as you suggest and the old argument of City being a "small club" comes out as an easy answer to the problems of the day. If that truely was the case we might as well pack up now. Fortunately the Chairman would appear not to subscribe to that view.

At the end of the day if Gary Johnson can cancell all days off last week and work the players harder than normal in order to get a reaction to a poor performance against Reading then surely its not un-natural for the paying punter to equally have a point of view.

[BCFC_Dan]

There's nothing at all wrong with a bit of debate or people stating their opinions, whatever they may be.

What I do find annoying is when people talk (or write) as though they know far more about the subject than the most successful manager Bristol City has had in 30 years, and never acknowledge all the factors that we simply don't get to see.

For instance, I agree with those who think that David Noble is one of the best footballers at the club. But I also think that Gary Johnson must have a very good reason for not including him and that the reason could involve factors that I never get to see, and in fact may not even have thought of.

Likewise, I'm sick of hearing things like "Why can't Johnson see our midfielders aren't good enough" - like Gary can't see how good his own players are and is simply refusing to sign anymore. Is that really likely? Or is it maybe more likely that there are again other factors in play that we don't see?

[WessexPest]

Why do some people take debate as a form of critiscism only and not a way of raising issues/standards which might be of concern to some people.

Recently there has been much debate of players ability or lack of, it would seem that by raising these issues a new level of performance has been aimed for and achieved by the whole team.

I don't agree with hounding and booing any player that plays for city, but at the same time constructive critiscism and a will not to let standards slip should also be used to carry our club forwards, I'm sure Garry Johnson uses these tacticts so why not the supporters.

If you set your sights low and are happy with mediocrity then that's what you get, we don't have to look far to see the effects of that.

So debate is good, it might not always be nice and I don't advocate abuse of anyone but let's keep demanding the best and debating how we can get it.

Yep, fortunately in a democracy these things tend to get discussed. But some people go way over the top with their crticism, which by no stretch of the imagination could be called constructive.

I don't think it's a case of being happy with mediocrity, last season people were still slaughtering the team when we were top of the league. If only we had played poorly at Southampton in the corresponding fixture last season and won 1-0, insteadn of just being atrocious and losing.

Equally though, I know that somebody who expresses concerns on a message board hasn't spent the previous 90 minutes booing and abusing the team.

Some people need to rein in their expectations a mite, though...

[WTFiGO!?!]

Why do some people take debate as a form of critiscism only and not a way of raising issues/standards which might be of concern to some people.

Recently there has been much debate of players ability or lack of, it would seem that by raising these issues a new level of performance has been aimed for and achieved by the whole team.

I don't agree with hounding and booing any player that plays for city, but at the same time constructive critiscism and a will not to let standards slip should also be used to carry our club forwards, I'm sure Garry Johnson uses these tacticts so why not the supporters.

If you set your sights low and are happy with mediocrity then that's what you get, we don't have to look far to see the effects of that.

So debate is good, it might not always be nice and I don't advocate abuse of anyone but let's keep demanding the best and debating how we can get it.

Georg Christoph Lichtenberg:

Nothing is more conducive to peace of mind than not having any opinions at all.

Football's a totally subjective matter so for me it just depends what you're looking for in life. IMO

[Tales From The Front]

There's nothing at all wrong with a bit of debate or people stating their opinions, whatever they may be.

What I do find annoying is when people talk (or write) as though they know far more about the subject than the most successful manager Bristol City has had in 30 years, and never acknowledge all the factors that we simply don't get to see.

For instance, I agree with those who think that David Noble is one of the best footballers at the club. But I also think that Gary Johnson must have a very good reason for not including him and that the reason could involve factors that I never get to see, and in fact may not even have thought of.

Likewise, I'm sick of hearing things like "Why can't Johnson see our midfielders aren't good enough" - like Gary can't see how good his own players are and is simply refusing to sign anymore. Is that really likely? Or is it maybe more likely that there are again other factors in play that we don't see?

Gary Johnson to date is the most succesful manager post Alan Dicks no questions But your comment that some how means that people cannot debate the goings on at the club is not healthy. Gary himself has no problem being a guest of Sky Sports and debating recent matches and I can see no problem in others on this board doing the same.

You read a wide cross section on these pages and I don't honestly think anyone thinks they are more qualified than anyone else to comment as all people express, is their opinion. You seem to imply that if the view posted agrees with Gary Johnson then its ok if it doesn't then on your bike. I'm sorry I cannot agree with that.

And for the record I think David Noble should play more regulaly than he does. And if there are factors that mean he doesn't play then fair enough but I would have thought the three points on a Saturday were the most important factors and it was his clever lay off that contibuted to three won last Saturday.

[BCFC_Dan]

Gary Johnson to date is the most succesful manager post Alan Dicks no questions But your comment that some how means that people cannot debate the goings on at the club is not healthy. Gary himself has no problem being a guest of Sky Sports and debating recent matches and I can see no problem in others on this board doing the same.

That's not what I said at all.

Debating and questioning actions is fine but people should remember that they really don't know all the facts.

Gary can debate matches on the TV and he can tell us what he would do in a particular situation, and this is interesting because he has the benefit of more knowledge than most. I've never heard him telling another manager what to do though because that wouldn't be showing them the respect they deserve.

For me there is a difference between "I think Gary should play Noble" or "I would play Noble" and "Johnson doesn't know what he's doing" and "He'll never drop Lee Johnson because he's family". The former are offering an opinion and that is fine. The latter are making assumptions that simply cannot be made by the average supporter.

Debate is healthy but when in a position of not knowing all the facts I feel it important to show respect to those who do, or who at least have a better knowledge of them.

[RedUn]

Football's a totally subjective matter so for me it just depends what you're looking for in life. IMO

Errm, call me controversial but football is about scoring more goals than the opposition ... isn't that totally objective?

[NickJ]

For instance, I agree with those who think that David Noble is one of the best footballers at the club. But I also think that Gary Johnson must have a very good reason for not including him and that the reason could involve factors that I never get to see, and in fact may not even have thought of.

There are 13,000 people who pay the wages of Gary Johnson and David Noble, wages considerably in excess of the majority of those 13,000.

If there are reasons why Gary Johnson refuses to include what is widely agreed to be one of our more talented players, those 13,000 people deserve to know those reasons.

To date, all we get is Noble is "injured" (he isnt) or only merits "coming on, when we are chasing the game" (GJ's words after Noble and Trundle saved the day against Plymouth).

I'm not really bothered whether the real reason reflects badly on Noble or Johnson, what I do know is that hard earned cash of ordinary working people is being paid for a service not being received.

And while I'm on the subject, if Webster is not worthy of a squad place, or is unbelievably "injured" through hardly playing a game, we should send him back to Rangers.

Bristol City arent alone in this, but the wages of footballers are high enough as it is, without wasting even more on players who are hardly going to play.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Errm, call me controversial but football is about scoring more goals than the opposition ... isn't that totally objective?

You're controversial - but I like it.

I'll re-word my point: Football is highly subjective/opinion based and debate isn't good for my mojo. IMO.

edit:this has instantly demonstrated the point I'm trying to make. I'm off for a cup of tea to calm down and learn from my mistake.

Think as soon as you state an opinion you leave yourself in the firing line.

[Godzilla]

If there are reasons why Gary Johnson refuses to include what is widely agreed to be one of our more talented players, those 13,000 people deserve to know those reasons.

Although I don't wish to get into a discussion about whether or not that point is correct, I would say it highlights something which, in my opinion, is a really sad indictment of the mentality of our fans.

The bottom line is, despite the level of success Gary has brought to our football club (a level of success beyond any of our wildest expectations), a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager.

And that, as far as I'm concerned, defies logic.

[NickJ]

Although I don't wish to get into a discussion about whether or not that point is correct, I would say it highlights something which, in my opinion, is a really sad indictment of the mentality of our fans.

The bottom line is, despite the level of success Gary has brought to our football club (a level of success beyond any of our wildest expectations), a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager.

No, incorrect.

Simply would like to know why one of our better players hadnt started a single game until Saturday, when, as I say, we are paying his wages.

I don't think thats too much to ask.

And there is no need to discuss whether the point is correct - ie whether there are reasons why Noble isnt playing - because quite clearly there are.

Nobody is saying Gary Johnson hasnt done a terrific job.

[WhistleHappy]

You're controversial - but I like it.

I'll re-word my point: Football is highly subjective/opinion based and debate isn't good for my mojo. IMO.

edit:this has instantly demonstrated the point I'm trying to make. I'm off for a cup of tea to calm down and learn from my mistake.

Think as soon as you state an opinion you leave yourself in the firing line.

...at this moment in time I fully agree with you, a cup of tea IMO is probably the favoured beverage of choice, some would advocate coffee of course but in consideration that we're almost into time added on already a sudden change of pace is not really called for... one could opt for a milky chocolate drink, Cocoa, Ovaltine perhaps or even Horlicks but these could slow things down a tad too much & we don't want to get caught on the counter attack at this stage... Yes I agree I think the steadying effects of tea is whats called for right now... but as always these are only opinions and as such are open to debate.

I'm pleased you brought up the subject of Mojo, as I recall these were small square shaped chewie sweets wrapped in waxed paper, think they had a mild minty flavour. Mojo's of course were not alone in shape or manner of wrapping, Mojo's belonged to a stable of three in terms of similar confectionary along with the colourful & flavoursome Fruit Salad, & the unforgettable licorice BlackJack.... all three of course are childhood favourites but if only one could be chosen which one would I most like to savour again right now?... I don't know it's like picking City's best midfield option I keep changing my mind.

So it's over to you another debate ensues, as far as I'm concerned Tea wins hands down in the beverage stakes.....

BUT which chew would you chew if you could choose?... & if you could chew two chews which chews would you choose to chew & which chew would you choose to stash in your fluffy duffle-coat pocket to chew on another day... eh?

Mojo/FruitSalad/BlackJack its your choice choose your chews to chew now... :noexpression:

I'm off for me digestive now and a nice cup of warm milk... night all.

[Jesus]

Although I don't wish to get into a discussion about whether or not that point is correct, I would say it highlights something which, in my opinion, is a really sad indictment of the mentality of our fans.

The bottom line is, despite the level of success Gary has brought to our football club (a level of success beyond any of our wildest expectations), a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager.

And that, as far as I'm concerned, defies logic.

Agree 100% with this.

I'm not very good at writing things down, which may make me sound over dramatic or OTT sometimes. If I could write a response to the GJ negativity on this forum, the above would bit it.

[Jesus]

No, incorrect.

Simply would like to know why one of our better players hadnt started a single game until Saturday, when, as I say, we are paying his wages.

Thats just you opinion surely! If GJ had to explain every move he made, then we wouldn't get anything done.

I take it you watch David Noble train everyday? You see his commitment in training and his attitude on a daily basis? Cus if you don't then your talking twaddle.

Yes we pay GJ wages, erm, but we've paid every managers wages! whats your point? At least we are paying the wages of a Manager that has given us every success.

So in my eyes, he has nothing to explain.

[Seend Red]

Thats just you opinion surely! If GJ had to explain every move he made, then we wouldn't get anything done.

I take it you watch David Noble train everyday? You see his commitment in training and his attitude on a daily basis? Cus if you don't then your talking twaddle.

Yes we pay GJ wages, erm, but we've paid every managers wages! whats your point? At least we are paying the wages of a Manager that has given us every success.

So in my eyes, he has nothing to explain.

But he has plenty of time to talk about us-The fans!

I'd far rather he used that tinme to talk about selection,tactics etc

[Snufflelufagus]

Yes lets have a mass one!

[Godzilla]

No, incorrect.

Simply would like to know why one of our better players hadnt started a single game until Saturday, when, as I say, we are paying his wages.

I don't think thats too much to ask.

And there is no need to discuss whether the point is correct - ie whether there are reasons why Noble isnt playing - because quite clearly there are.

Nobody is saying Gary Johnson hasnt done a terrific job.

My comment wasn't specifically aimed at yourself. However, if you don't think the following is true of many, many other fans...

The bottom line is, despite the level of success Gary has brought to our football club (a level of success beyond any of our wildest expectations), a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager.

... then where have you been for the past couple of weeks?!

Apparently, Gary can't see our midfield is 'weak', wasted £2.25m on Maynard, is hiding something in regards to the 'injury' of Noble, is only picking Lee Johnson because he's his dad and is making the wrong substitutions when trying to seal victories (even when the substitutions he does actually make still seal the victory!).

Debate and opinions are one thing. Gary doesn't get it right all of the time! But some of the criticism he and his players have copped over the past couple of weeks really is just somethin' else!

And as an aside, as far as I'm concerned Saturday is the biggest game of the season so far. A win at home would be massive, because it seems to me the players are probably dreading setting foot on Ashton Gate at the moment and we really need to get everyone pulling in the same direction again.

[bully]

Apparently, Gary can't see our midfield is 'weak', wasted £2.25m on Maynard, is hiding something in regards to the 'injury' of Noble, is only picking Lee Johnson because he's his dad and is making the wrong substitutions when trying to seal victories (even when the substitutions he does actually make still seal the victory!).

Blimey - and you a moderator!

[bh_red]

Although I don't wish to get into a discussion about whether or not that point is correct, I would say it highlights something which, in my opinion, is a really sad indictment of the mentality of our fans.

The bottom line is, despite the level of success Gary has brought to our football club (a level of success beyond any of our wildest expectations), a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager.

And that, as far as I'm concerned, defies logic.

it's not about "not trusting" the manager, it's about not understanding a number of the decisions he makes.

[WhistleHappy]

because it seems to me the players are probably dreading setting foot on Ashton Gate at the moment and we really need to get everyone pulling in the same direction again.

Quite right G'zilla,

Saturdays a biggee, best way to get everyone together is to have a laugh, & share together, & we do all need to start chewing from the same packet

So to set the ball rolling I suggest we all take packets of chews with us to AG, (Mojo's, Fruit Salads, Blackjacks, & whatever they call Opal Fruits nowadays etc) & hand 'em around share 'em with strangers... using the magic words - "Chews City, pass it on.."

Supporters that chews together never lose together...

oh yeah Chewits thats another one they'll do - hand 'em around, remember - "Chews City, Pass It On.... "

[edson]

it's not about "not trusting" the manager, it's about not understanding a number of the decisions he makes.

You don't understand them, but you trust him to make the right ones?

[Meh]

Yes lets have a mass one!

Definitely. I love to mass debate.

[kingswood red]

You don't understand them, but you trust him to make the right ones?

I don't think Gary always makes the right decisions, he has admitted as much, but he makes an awful lot more right ones than wrong ones.

[edson]

I don't think Gary always makes the right decisions, he has admitted as much, but he makes an awful lot more right ones than wrong ones.

Yeah, you're right.

I should have worded it "but trust him to make them for the right reasons".

[NickJ]

My comment wasn't specifically aimed at yourself. However, if you don't think the following is true of many, many other fans...

QUOTE

The bottom line is, despite the level of success Gary has brought to our football club (a level of success beyond any of our wildest expectations), a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager.

... then where have you been for the past couple of weeks?!

But that isnt many other fans saying it.

Its one fan saying that many other fans are saying it.

One fan, who speaks only for himself, has said that "a huge proportion of the fans simply don't trust the manager".

That is patently incorrect and makes the huger error of presuming what other fans think when nobody has actually said it.

[Guest MaloneFM]

I have never know anyone yet to stand there and say 'I know everything about football and I am always right'.

Except Robinson obviously but while this rules applies the debate rages on. And a good job too.

[NickJ]

Thats just you opinion surely! If GJ had to explain every move he made, then we wouldn't get anything done.

I take it you watch David Noble train everyday? You see his commitment in training and his attitude on a daily basis? Cus if you don't then your talking twaddle.

Yes we pay GJ wages, erm, but we've paid every managers wages! whats your point? At least we are paying the wages of a Manager that has given us every success.

So in my eyes, he has nothing to explain.

Well yes, it is just my opinion. Obviously. Thats why this place is called a fans forum. It wouldnt be a forum if people didnt express their opinions.

I'm not asking GJ to explain every decision, just the one that appears to be on very many peoples minds. There, not every decision, just the ones that the fans are most interested in. Or shall we just keep the whole thing shrouded in a cloak of secrecy on the basis Gary knows best.

Well yes, I know he knows best, in general, as I have said very many times on here. However I don't agree with the Noble thing, as do many others, so perhaps a bit of explanation to assist our football knowledge might not go amiss.

I don't see Noble train every day. Nobody does - the training sessions as I understand it are now out of limits to us ordinary fans.

If I was allowed to see Noble train, I wouldnt. I know what I see when he's on the pitch, and I like what I see. I'm not really bothered if he doesnt train at all. If he did, I presume he would be even better - thats Nobles problem. If he merits a place even with a bad attitude to training (if these unfounded rumours are true, obviously), then he should play. I don't pay to see him train, I pay to see him play. Or not, as the case may be.

So to answer your final point, you are wrong, there is something to explain, thats why I am asking. The only question is whether it will be.

Finally, did you notice how I addressed all of your points without accusing you of talking twaddle?

[Chappers]

It would be a really carp forum if we all agreed with each other!

[Roger Red Hat]

It would be a really carp forum if we all agreed with each other!

Oh no it wouldn't.