Fans Again

[Tom Fleuriot]

Once again I was embarassed to hear city fans cheering when one of our own players was subbed today. Why do people do it?

Can I have an explanation, bearing in mind:

I'm not saying it's disgraceful and am not saying fans have no right to shout abuse.

I'm not saying John put in a good performance.

I'm not saying fans ought to agree with everything the manager does.

I'm not saying that at the end of an exceptionally atrocious team performance fans shouldn't make some feelings known.

But I AM saying that there is a difference between criticising a player to your mates and cheering when he is subbed.

How on earth is it supposed to improve the performance of either that player or the team?

How is it supposed to improve the fan-player relationship?

How can you do it and call yourself a supporter?

I have never booed a city player or cheered when they were subbed. More importantly, I only remember it happening once mid-game before this season (Ian Baird pre-season). Am I right in thinking it's a recent thing, and why is it happening when we have the most successful team I've seen at the gate?

[Donkeeebles]

Once again I was embarassed to hear city fans cheering when one of our own players was subbed today. Why do people do it?

Can I have an explanation, bearing in mind:

I'm not saying it's disgraceful and am not saying fans have no right to shout abuse.

I'm not saying John put in a good performance.

I'm not saying fans ought to agree with everything the manager does.

I'm not saying that at the end of an exceptionally atrocious team performance fans shouldn't make some feelings known.

But I AM saying that there is a difference between criticising a player to your mates and cheering when he is subbed.

How on earth is it supposed to improve the performance of either that player or the team?

How is it supposed to improve the fan-player relationship?

How can you do it and call yourself a supporter?

I have never booed a city player or cheered when they were subbed. More importantly, I only remember it happening once mid-game before this season (Ian Baird pre-season). Am I right in thinking it's a recent thing, and why is it happening when we have the most successful team I've seen at the gate?

I agree.......i think John is taking us for a ride but i would never cheer sarcastically when any player is substituted purely because i don't think it helps the relationship between the fans and ALL the players. i also don't think it does Gj relationship with the fans any favours.

The fact is getting on a players back during the game does absolutley no good to the player at all and certainly doesnt fill them with confidence. I have said before how i often wonder how Lj would react if just for once the city fans sang his name, made up a song for him etc.......i believe it would work wonders for his confidence and we would see a far better player........i think Lj perormances have improved a lot since the day he was cheered off when subbed.......that is down to the character of the player but i also think that he was shown a certain ammount of positive support from quite a lot of fans and that almost certainly would have helped him mentally.

[rossjonesuk]

Totally disagree.

I didnt cheer personally, because I think with-holding applause is enough to demonstrate my view of a players performance, but if other fans choose to cheer then fill your boots! It's not the first time we've seen him put in a lazy performance and after a few on the bounce the fans deserve to let him know how they feel.

I think Stern was WOEFUL on saturday. He was lazy, lacklustre, and all-round uninterested in playing in a game 15,000 odd fans paid £20 plus to go and watch. The likes of Bas Savage and Enoch put in many a woeful performance, but were rarely booed because at least we could all see they were trying.

If Stern thinks sulking around the pitch and only moving when the ball is within 2yrds of him is enough to please fans, then he is further detached from reality than I would care to think.

[Andy Horsman]

Totally disagree.

I didnt cheer personally, because I think with-holding applause is enough to demonstrate my view of a players performance, but if other fans choose to cheer then fill your boots! It's not the first time we've seen him put in a lazy performance and after a few on the bounce the fans deserve to let him know how they feel.

I think Stern was WOEFUL on saturday. He was lazy, lacklustre, and all-round uninterested in playing in a game 15,000 odd fans paid £20 plus to go and watch. The likes of Bas Savage and Enoch put in many a woeful performance, but were rarely booed because at least we could all see they were trying.

If Stern thinks sulking around the pitch and only moving when the ball is within 2yrds of him is enough to please fans, then he is further detached from reality than I would care to think.

I must admit pre-season, I advocated signing Stern John, due to his record at this level and being aware of Southampton's financial problems, but I must admit he has been almost as disappointing as Marcus Stewart.

He was pretty dreadful Saturday, missing a first half effort that Mrs Harry Redkanpp would have scored, and looked lacklustre and subdued, as he has throughout his loan spell. I'm not saying that Trundle has been a great sucess at City, or that Akinde is ready to play week in week out at this level, but I would rather see either of them honestly toiling for the shirt than Stern John, who clearly isn't. As a previous poster stated, even Bas gave us graft, if not guile.

If that results in booing, then my view is those people pay their money and love this club have the right to express their dissatisfaction with a player's apparent lack of interest. I didn't boo, but agree with those, on this occasion, who did.

[Tom Fleuriot]

Totally disagree.

I didnt cheer personally, because I think with-holding applause is enough to demonstrate my view of a players performance, but if other fans choose to cheer then fill your boots! It's not the first time we've seen him put in a lazy performance and after a few on the bounce the fans deserve to let him know how they feel.

I think Stern was WOEFUL on saturday. He was lazy, lacklustre, and all-round uninterested in playing in a game 15,000 odd fans paid £20 plus to go and watch. The likes of Bas Savage and Enoch put in many a woeful performance, but were rarely booed because at least we could all see they were trying.

If Stern thinks sulking around the pitch and only moving when the ball is within 2yrds of him is enough to please fans, then he is further detached from reality than I would care to think.

I'm not saying john was good, I'm saying cheering like that isn't going to make the team play better. Do you think it does?

[Percy Parrot]

I agree with Baird. It's not to say anything about Stern John really. It's just to say I do not think it's helpful.

I think it can dent his confidence further rather than help him.

I think it can disrupt and upset the rest of the players.

And I think that if overall a player isn't doing enough then Johnson will deal with it in a far better suited manner. For all we know Stern may be working amazingly hard in training. WE don't know. GARY does. So I will let him be the judge because I think he's in a far better position.

I would not make a court ruling on the basis of seeing a tiny bit of evidence. I would leave it to the judge who knows all the facts.

[bh red]

I'm not saying john was good, I'm saying cheering like that isn't going to make the team play better. Do you think it does?

actually it did....it was 0-0 when he went off

from now on the moment they come out the tunnel, Boo the lot of them

[Lee F]

I think it is fairly apparent that John is not here to benefit BCFC. He may have a good touch, but he does not work for himself or the team. He cannot seem to be a goal threat either.

I do not buy the 'But he has got the best out of Maynard/Sproule etc' Surely that is the manager and coaches job. If he is the one doing that then he should be a coach and not a player.

I don't care how hard he works in training, I would rather he took the week off and played with some desire and passion on a Saturday.

I personally do not need to jeer or boo a subbed player but I have a right as a paying spectator and customer (revenue generator/ wage payer) of the club that is paying his over inflated wages to question his performances.

I do not understand why he is afforded the grace of GJ to wander around doing jack all not effecting the game in our favour at all when we are told or led to believe that is the very reason a few other technically gifted BCFC players cannot get a sniff of 1st team football.

I think SJ is only here to play 1st team football in order to swell his bank balance and keep himself in his international team.

So if he heard the jeering/ sarcastic cheering bllody good job! It might make him realise that if he pulls on a BCFC shirt he is expected to put in a shift.

[Percy Parrot]

I think it is fairly apparent that John is not here to benefit BCFC. He may have a good touch, but he does not work for himself or the team. He cannot seem to be a goal threat either.

I do not buy the 'But he has got the best out of Maynard/Sproule etc' Surely that is the manager and coaches job. If he is the one doing that then he should be a coach and not a player.

I don't care how hard he works in training, I would rather he took the week off and played with some desire and passion on a Saturday.

I personally do not need to jeer or boo a subbed player but I have a right as a paying spectator and customer (revenue generator/ wage payer) of the club that is paying his over inflated wages to question his performances.

I do not understand why he is afforded the grace of GJ to wander around doing jack all not effecting the game in our favour at all when we are told or led to believe that is the very reason a few other technically gifted BCFC players cannot get a sniff of 1st team football.

I think SJ is only here to play 1st team football in order to swell his bank balance and keep himself in his international team.

So if he heard the jeering/ sarcastic cheering bllody good job! It might make him realise that if he pulls on a BCFC shirt he is expected to put in a shift.

But Lee, surely you can understand that his poor performances may be due to a lack of confidence and not necessarily lack of effort. Anyone who has played sport, worked with kids or managed at any level must realise this. If, for whatever reason, you don't feel confident the work rate does look awful. A player who thinks every time they run for a ball they may score a goal will run. A player who thinks they won't make it either will not bother or will have a split second of doubt that means it's too late by the time they realise they can chase it anyway.

So actually if Stern John is getting in to training early, leaving late, working his socks off then I think it does matter. It may not have shown yet but eventually it will. And if he is working hard generally but just lacking in confidence then I do think it would affect our reaction to him - we would surely be unwise and unfair to boo just because a guy's not confident and it would clearly be better to give him a helping hand.

Now as I said before about all the above - truth is we do not know. Maybe Stern John is lazy, maybe he doesn't care, maybe he doesn't work hard in training. But [finally the main point to all this] I will let Gary Johnson be the judge of that. He knows far more about John's contribution to the team, he knows far more about football in general and he knows far more about how to deal with the guy. We know Johnson will not accept poor effort or bad attitude - so surely we have to trust him to deal with Stern John if he needs to at all.

Maybe Gary is totally fed up with him, pulled him off on Saturday for that reason and will never play him again - but if that's the case then fair enough, I'll leave it to him to sort out.

And by the way this "I pay my money" thing may be true to some extent but it's pretty boring. We all pay our money for various things and we are all paid by someone ultimately. Yet I am pretty sure we'll all admit that our standards fall occasionally, that confidence drops and maybe we take it a little easy from time to time.

Next time you're at work and you daydream about City or check the BBC website you are pretty unlikely to have the customer stood there shouting "I pay your wages" but accept that if the boss sees you he may well have a word.

[Donkeeebles]

But Lee, surely you can understand that his poor performances may be due to a lack of confidence and not necessarily lack of effort. Anyone who has played sport, worked with kids or managed at any level must realise this. If, for whatever reason, you don't feel confident the work rate does look awful. A player who thinks every time they run for a ball they may score a goal will run. A player who thinks they won't make it either will not bother or will have a split second of doubt that means it's too late by the time they realise they can chase it anyway. If what you say is true and he is suffering from a lack of confidence then that is what i class as hiding in the game. Almost not wanting the ball to come to you which is not a nice thing. However i have stated before and will state again that i was impressed the way Maynard got through his bad spell by doing the exact opposite and working his socks off on the pitch rather than the training ground. The best way to get your confidence back is to get the crowd behind you and what better way of doing that than showing a bit of fight and passion on the pitch.

So actually if Stern John is getting in to training early, leaving late, working his socks off then I think it does matter. It may not have shown yet but eventually it will. And if he is working hard generally but just lacking in confidence then I do think it would affect our reaction to him - we would surely be unwise and unfair to boo just because a guy's not confident and it would clearly be better to give him a helping hand.

Now as I said before about all the above - truth is we do not know. Maybe Stern John is lazy, maybe he doesn't care, maybe he doesn't work hard in training. But [finally the main point to all this] I will let Gary Johnson be the judge of that. He knows far more about John's contribution to the team, he knows far more about football in general and he knows far more about how to deal with the guy. We know Johnson will not accept poor effort or bad attitude - so surely we have to trust him to deal with Stern John if he needs to at all.

Maybe Gary is totally fed up with him, pulled him off on Saturday for that reason and will never play him again - but if that's the case then fair enough, I'll leave it to him to sort out.

And by the way this "I pay my money" thing may be true to some extent but it's pretty boring. We all pay our money for various things and we are all paid by someone ultimately. Yet I am pretty sure we'll all admit that our standards fall occasionally, that confidence drops and maybe we take it a little easy from time to time.

Next time you're at work and you daydream about City or check the BBC website you are pretty unlikely to have the customer stood there shouting "I pay your wages" but accept that if the boss sees you he may well have a word.

Think you made some good points there Percy.......i do try and trust Gj but sometimes its hard to go against your own feelings. I am however behind the guy 100%.

[Percy Parrot]

Think you made some good points there Percy.......i do try and trust Gj but sometimes its hard to go against your own feelings. I am however behind the guy 100%.

Good points too Donkeeebles (BTW - what kind of name is that? You want to get a sensible one like mine ). Anyway,

I agree it is very hard to go against your gut feelings but I just wish more people would avoid doing the easy thing of getting on players backs and try the slightly more difficult thing of getting behind them when they need it most. Generally speaking I think City fans are actually very good at this. Taking the easy route is actually what those very people are accusing the players of. Remember it's not just the players who find it hard when they think things are going wrong. Fans too find it harder to sing when the wind is taken out of their sales or they despair.

Back to the actual players - I just think back to myself as a very poor teenage player. I would hide in games and go through periods when teammates would have a go at me for not working hard - yet anyone who has played with me for a long time will also have seen me as one of the most committed (though rubbish) footballers in any team. One season as a teen I was awful awful awful. Sub half the time, rubbish the rest. I didn't tackle, head or track. Didn't want the ball to come to me in games, didn't want to get it as I worried so much I'd get it wrong. I wouldn't track incase I got turned and done for pace so I was happy for players just to drift away from me. It took ONE good performance in the first game of the following season to change it. I got man of the match, my manager said how good I was in front of the rest of the players and I was made up. All the "kicks up the bum" of the following season had no impact at all, a kind word and an award in front of my mates and I was changed. Went on to win player of the season despite the team getting relegated - because I had faith in myself.

I know I was younger and professionals are paid good money - but little can change basic human behaviour. Thankfully Gary knows football, Mark Layder knows his psychology and Nick Dawes knows psysiotherapy. They all know Stern John. If there is a problem I think they will identify it and know the best way to sort it. If there is none then I am sure Gary will not sure him or send him back to Southampton.

Finally on the Maynard topic. First few games I actually think he looked very lazy. I didn't think he was doing anywhere near enough off the ball, trying hard enough to fight for the ball or running hard enough to get it. Thankfully this changed and his work rate shot up and a few matches later the goals followed too.

I should mention in all of this I can let slip comments during a game out of frustration, anger or despair. Just that with such pointed moments such as a substitution I like to think we can pause for a few seconds and put the overall atmosphere of the team and club ahead of our own frustrations with a certain player.

[The Man In Black]

Mark Layder knows his psychology

If he's so good can he not give the half-time contestants a pep talk before they try to hit the ball into that little net then?

[Ashton Kate]

Once again I was embarassed to hear city fans cheering when one of our own players was subbed today. Why do people do it?

Can I have an explanation, bearing in mind:

I'm not saying it's disgraceful and am not saying fans have no right to shout abuse.

I'm not saying John put in a good performance.

I'm not saying fans ought to agree with everything the manager does.

I'm not saying that at the end of an exceptionally atrocious team performance fans shouldn't make some feelings known.

But I AM saying that there is a difference between criticising a player to your mates and cheering when he is subbed.

How on earth is it supposed to improve the performance of either that player or the team?

How is it supposed to improve the fan-player relationship?

How can you do it and call yourself a supporter?

I have never booed a city player or cheered when they were subbed. More importantly, I only remember it happening once mid-game before this season (Ian Baird pre-season). Am I right in thinking it's a recent thing, and why is it happening when we have the most successful team I've seen at the gate?

Booing of players does nothing for the players morale and is the most annoying thing I have heard at Ashton Gate for many a year. I happen to think Stern is receiving his wages under false pretences, he adds nothing to the side and I happen to think he looks disinterested and is quite happy to stroll around giving nothing. There I have said my piece!! I feel a lot better now.

[Big Stan Hibbert]

Good points too Donkeeebles (BTW - what kind of name is that? You want to get a sensible one like mine ). Anyway,

I agree it is very hard to go against your gut feelings but I just wish more people would avoid doing the easy thing of getting on players backs and try the slightly more difficult thing of getting behind them when they need it most. Generally speaking I think City fans are actually very good at this. Taking the easy route is actually what those very people are accusing the players of. Remember it's not just the players who find it hard when they think things are going wrong. Fans too find it harder to sing when the wind is taken out of their sales or they despair.

Back to the actual players - I just think back to myself as a very poor teenage player. I would hide in games and go through periods when teammates would have a go at me for not working hard - yet anyone who has played with me for a long time will also have seen me as one of the most committed (though rubbish) footballers in any team. One season as a teen I was awful awful awful. Sub half the time, rubbish the rest. I didn't tackle, head or track. Didn't want the ball to come to me in games, didn't want to get it as I worried so much I'd get it wrong. I wouldn't track incase I got turned and done for pace so I was happy for players just to drift away from me. It took ONE good performance in the first game of the following season to change it. I got man of the match, my manager said how good I was in front of the rest of the players and I was made up. All the "kicks up the bum" of the following season had no impact at all, a kind word and an award in front of my mates and I was changed. Went on to win player of the season despite the team getting relegated - because I had faith in myself.

I know I was younger and professionals are paid good money - but little can change basic human behaviour. Thankfully Gary knows football, Mark Layder knows his psychology and Nick Dawes knows psysiotherapy. They all know Stern John. If there is a problem I think they will identify it and know the best way to sort it. If there is none then I am sure Gary will not sure him or send him back to Southampton.

Finally on the Maynard topic. First few games I actually think he looked very lazy. I didn't think he was doing anywhere near enough off the ball, trying hard enough to fight for the ball or running hard enough to get it. Thankfully this changed and his work rate shot up and a few matches later the goals followed too.

I should mention in all of this I can let slip comments during a game out of frustration, anger or despair. Just that with such pointed moments such as a substitution I like to think we can pause for a few seconds and put the overall atmosphere of the team and club ahead of our own frustrations with a certain player.

It's a very sensible and rational assessment you have made there and I agree with the sentiment. However, the issue of how much these guys are paid (ultimately by us) is likely to be at the forefront of supporters minds when so many people are losing their jobs and struggling to make ends meet. Stern may well work hard in training, he may well add something to the dressing room but on Saturday during match time he was awful. The trouble is, it's not the first time he has been awful. At the professional level, on that sort of wage I expect every man to put in 100%, I want every man to chase down every ball and i want to see the sort of body language that inspires team mates and supporters alike. I don't expect to see what I saw from Stern on Saturday and as I won't get the opportunity to put my point across to him personally, I am likely to voice my opinion in the only way i can. Now I understand where you are coming from in terms of the impact that may have on the rest of the team, but I'd bet a pound to a penny (I love that phrase) that some of our boys, underneath all that "one team" mindset, felt like they were carrying Stern on Saturday. That in my opinion will have a far worse impact on the team than some no mark like me jeering from the sidelines.

[Robbored]

Like most others fans I heard the cheers when John was subbed on Saturday and despite having heard similar reactions to ther players in the past was a little surprised. I didn't think he was that bad.

Whilst it is disapointing it is nevertheless the only way that fans can express their feelings towards a particular player and lets face it John does give the impression that he's lazy - which given Johnson's obsession with hard working players is a bit surprising. You never know but maybe getting such a reaction will spur John into making more effort.

The purists will say that it shouldn't happen and that as fans we should all get behind our players.In theory thats quite right but in reality that will never happen.Fans are far too fickle.

[kingswood red]

Once again I was embarassed to hear city fans cheering when one of our own players was subbed today. Why do people do it?

Can I have an explanation, bearing in mind:

I'm not saying it's disgraceful and am not saying fans have no right to shout abuse.

I'm not saying John put in a good performance.

I'm not saying fans ought to agree with everything the manager does.

I'm not saying that at the end of an exceptionally atrocious team performance fans shouldn't make some feelings known.

But I AM saying that there is a difference between criticising a player to your mates and cheering when he is subbed.

How on earth is it supposed to improve the performance of either that player or the team?

How is it supposed to improve the fan-player relationship?

How can you do it and call yourself a supporter?

I have never booed a city player or cheered when they were subbed. More importantly, I only remember it happening once mid-game before this season (Ian Baird pre-season). Am I right in thinking it's a recent thing, and why is it happening when we have the most successful team I've seen at the gate?

I will definately give Stern a big cheer tonight,

as long as he ain't playing.

[Fodbarmyarmy]

You are all right of course......

Stern John pulls the wool over GJ's eyes and fools everybody every day in training and for 90mins everygame

I don't know how he does it.......must have learnt from Trundle & Noble

Thank god we all know better

[Guest RiZiVi]

I boo'ed. Lazy SOB.

Maybe some players up their game to ensure they don't get boo'ed too?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Like most others fans I heard the cheers when John was subbed on Saturday and despite having heard similar reactions to ther players in the past was a little surprised. I didn't think he was that bad.

He was, he really was.

Whilst it is disapointing

Why is it disappointing - he was woeful, again.

it is nevertheless the only way that fans can express their feelings towards a particular player and lets face it John does give the impression that he's lazy - which given Johnson's obsession with hard working players is a bit surprising.

It certainly is, particularly when a popular game changer in Trundle has been sent out on loan.

You never know but maybe getting such a reaction will spur John into making more effort.

Well, you're covering all the bases in this argument. Let's hope it does because he's likely to start again tonight.

The purists will say that it shouldn't happen

Are there such a thing as "purists" in the matter of jeering a player or not?.

and that as fans we should all get behind our players.In theory thats quite right but in reality that will never happen.Fans are far too fickle.

Surely fickleness doesn't come into it or they would be cheering Stern one week, and jeering him the next. Fact is he's awful every time he pulls on the Red shirt and the fans are entitled to let him know they won't stand for it.

And no, I didn't jeer him off, much as I might have felt like doing so.