Geoff65 Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 It's only a few years ago that they were held up as a model of a well-run football club and the sort that a club like City should be aspiring to emulate. Did they go badly wrong or is it simply impossible to sustain success at a medium-sized club? Difference is Curbs - he understood football top to bottom and produced results, once he left the owners didn't have the skills or knowledge to run a football club and put their trust in different managers - bit like us SL didnt have a clue what a manager should or shouldn't do i.e. letting Danny Wilson commute from Chesterfield - it doesnt set a good example to the squad. Tinnion, had experience of City had our methods but was out of his depth - in comes GJ lays down basic rules and hey presto promotion and a side that is looking well run. Southampton same thing Strachan leaves all goes tits up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Perhaps it's your reputation!! Lack of one - quite possibly. It was a small business I run on the side I was setting up and then a fairly sizable management buyout we wanted VC funding for. To be honest I don't think we'd have been successful with either without sound business plans, good credit history and some backing from potential clients. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheese Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Lack of one - quite possibly. It was a small business I run on the side I was setting up and then a fairly sizable management buyout we wanted VC funding for. To be honest I don't think we'd have been successful with either without sound business plans, good credit history and some backing from potential clients. Yeah - well my expereinces seem to be quite different really - everyone is shouting about mortgage monies being difficult to come by at the moment but I have two offers currently with no need to pay off my existing one. It's the incriminating photos that do it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Percy Parrot Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Depends how you look at it. In lots of respects we aren't a well run ship when compared to a normal business. We're only well run in comparison to other clubs but that's not much to write home about! We made a large loss last year despite an unexpectedly high income thanks to Wembley. We've run at a loss for a long time despite fairly significant exceptional income for transfer fees. We generally spend beyond our means. Each year our liabilities increase and we rely on SteveL's largesse to reset them every so often through investment. The saving graces are that we have a backer who we trust to not leave us high and dry and that although we overspend we do so in a way that can be cut back fairly easily, by not spending on transfers and not renewing contracts when they expire. We are also increasing our revenue year on year and probably at least cover our footballing wage bill from football income. We also have a longer term plan (the stadium) to significantly increase it in the future. I'm not worried but if I didn't trust SteveL I would be, but we definitely shouldn't gloat. True enough. Take nothing and no-one for granted. The next few years are MASSIVE - of that I have no doubt. Club is riding on the crest of the wave, our nearest neighbours aren't doing anything dramatically exciting and we are hopefully 3 years away from a new stadium. BUT all those things can be taken away oh so quickly. Our team form could crash, Rovers could suddenly do brilliantly, the stadium has many hoops to jump through and we have a credit crunch on. Wouldn't it be lovely if after all that we could have a football that operates at a profit with some of that re-invested in the club, some in the team, some in youth development and some put away for a rainy day? And debt free of course! But for now we count ourselves lucky to have someone who knows this stuff far better than me looking after it all Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
havanatopia Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 The Government are currently challenging this rule through the Courts, I have no doubts they will win. I wouldn't put so much faith in this gov't to do anything correctly, earnestly or honestly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Charlton's Chairman has admitted that HSBC have called in the overdraft facility amounting to around £6m. A few years ago the bank called in Real Madrid's overdraft of £100 million. So many people then threatened to stop using that bank, they backed down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chivs Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Ain't that just great. If banks sold umbrellas they'd only sell them to you when it's sunny and, when it started to rain, they'd ask for them back. Shoot the lot of 'em. (metaphorically speaking of course). I was right with you. Up until the word "metaphorically" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Nah, I'm sure the Welsh FA would step in and see their little cherubs alright!!! Will not be sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bristolcitysweden Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Here, Here.......I still don't understand how the govt can bail them out of trouble with billions of OUR money and then banks can still announce profits to their shareholders And while we are on the subject......why couldn't this govt money be made available for our Health & education systems several years ago? How many hospitals / medical centres or new schools / further education places could this have provided? And why has not one MP asked this type of question in the house? As soon as the banks wanted it...it was there for them......fork all of em...I encourage everyone to draw all their cash from the banks right now and watch them go crashing down the drain then we can start a new model banking system based on barter and goods for everyone rather than profit for a minority Come on everyone the revolution is almost upon us We are on the verge of a planet crunch but who cares - let's save the banks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CiderHider Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 The Banks, the FSA, the Bank of England, The treasury, Credit reference agency's, America and Puuuure Greeeeeed are all to blame, there is enough of that to go round a trillion times to the power of 10, can't blame the Bank entirely. blame Capitalism & Globalization if you're going to point the finger. Ultimately though blame man, for we are simple animals told what to do by the media, consuming the worlds resources and demanding more for less after all material things are what make us happy no?, Sorry, but we are in a word FUBAR! The end is coming, are you ready? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tales From The Front Posted February 10, 2009 Report Share Posted February 10, 2009 Absolutely. However, clearly people and businesses aren't capable of taking such responsibility across the board, so it should have been checked, in my view. Much like the vast majority of us know stealing cars is wrong, but we still buy them with locks, alarms and immobilisers. You are right it should have been checked, by the Financial Services Authority, a governmental agency, if not by the Bank of England, who during this crisis has been seen to be anything but the idependant organisation the government would have us belive. The banks have been totaly negligent but so has the government and its agencies, whose purpose in a free market is to regulate the sort of practices that have gone on. It has not done so becuase it was in the governments interst to allow cheap lending to sustain the level of growth in the economy necessary to pay for the ridiculous level of public borrowing by Brown & Co. Unfortunately for the government and more importantly for the tax payer this bubble did what should have been obvious and that was burst! Football inevtiably, all be it a late arrival at this party, will be as hard hit as all other industry. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nzred Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 A few years ago the bank called in Real Madrid's overdraft of £100 million. So many people then threatened to stop using that bank, they backed down. I could be wrong, but I thought that the largest bank in Spain has a large stake in Real Madrid. Every few years they run up uncontrolable debts, and the bank gives them a clean slate. One reason why they are hated so much by the other clubs in Spain. Please correct me if I am wrong Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 I could be wrong, but I thought that the largest bank in Spain has a large stake in Real Madrid. Every few years they run up uncontrolable debts, and the bank gives them a clean slate. One reason why they are hated so much by the other clubs in Spain. Please correct me if I am wrong Real Madrid is owned by it's members. They sold some property to clear debt to the city and the controversy was over the price paid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Perhaps it's one of those things where education hasn't moved fast enough and kids in school should be learning more about credit. The only thing the education system teaches kids about credit is that leaving university with loans of over £10k is completely acceptable and nothing to worry about. Crazy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The only thing the education system teaches kids about credit is that leaving university with loans of over £10k is completely acceptable and nothing to worry about. Crazy. Leaving university with loans of over £10k is virtually unavoidable unless you're very privileged. However the standard student loan is repaid in such a manner that it generally is nothing to worry about unless you've racked up additional debts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Leaving university with loans of over £10k is virtually unavoidable unless you're very privileged. However the standard student loan is repaid in such a manner that it generally is nothing to worry about unless you've racked up additional debts. Does that not underline the point that it creates a culture where young people consider debt to be ok, though? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 The only thing the education system teaches kids about credit is that leaving university with loans of over £10k is completely acceptable and nothing to worry about. Crazy. Of course it is acceptable. It is 10k which is at a very low rate- not like a commercial loan. Many loans are also wiped after 25 years or when you get to 65 (whichever comes first). You also pay on the basis of what you earn- ie it is affordable to pay back the loan. It really is nothing to worry about- especially with rates so low at the moment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Does that not underline the point that it creates a culture where young people consider debt to be ok, though? No I don't. Everyone needs debt to do well in life at some point. The main difference is whether it is good debt or bad debt. A student loan or a mortgage should be affordable debt and should help you progress in life. A loan from Ocean however is perhaps not the best debt to get into though- many seem to be taking loans they don't really need- to go on holidays etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC_Dan Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Does that not underline the point that it creates a culture where young people consider debt to be ok, though? I think it depends on the young people in question. The student loan itself takes a form that isn't really like any other loan. You get given it in chunks on a termly basis and the amount you get is constant and pre-defined. When paying it back you don't have to pay anything unless you're earning over a certain threshold and once you are earning that it is paid back automatically at a very low rate. There's no real way of losing control of it as far as I am aware and the impact of having to pay it back is negligible. However, the availability of overdrafts and credit cards does lead many young people into debt that they can't control, but I think that's a side issue that affects all people not just students. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chivs Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Does that not underline the point that it creates a culture where young people consider debt to be ok, though? Oh keep up, Edson. Debt is OK. You bundle up your bad debts with other debts that the debtors are bound to repay, pay a sophisticated rating agency to assess the bundle as Triple A rating, and then sell it on to other people who are heavily in debt. What could possibly go wrong? PS I got this sound advice from Sir Fred, who was knighted for his services to the financial sector, and Sir James, who was knighted for his...you know the rest... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
edson Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Oh keep up, Edson. Debt is OK. You bundle up your bad debts with other debts that the debtors are bound to repay, pay a sophisticated rating agency to assess the bundle as Triple A rating, and then sell it on to other people who are heavily in debt. What could possibly go wrong? PS I got this sound advice from Sir Fred, who was knighted for his services to the financial sector, and Sir James, who was knighted for his...you know the rest... Is that thunder your end or mine? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheshire_red Posted February 11, 2009 Author Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Of course it is acceptable. It is 10k which is at a very low rate- not like a commercial loan. Many loans are also wiped after 25 years or when you get to 65 (whichever comes first). I could start a 3 year degree course next year and not have to pay anything back by the time I finihed! How much loan can I have? Will ya still need me when I'm...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well, I would think that with their debt situation, some of the big guns could be in danger, no? Consider the following: So far Abramovich has pumped £600m into Chelsea, in the form of soft loans. If he goes or gets arrested in Russia, well those loans have to be paid back. Liverpool owe RBS/Wachovia £300million. They were given 6 months to pay it back at the turn of the year. They have not yet found a buyer. Man United are £700million in debt. It started off at around £283 million. That's a 250% increase of it in under 4 years. And Arsenal, though well run, have the Emirates and all the costs building it incurred. If they don't qualify for the CL for a couple of years on the bounce that would make interesting viewing. Of course don't forget Portsmouth, £90 odd million and West Ham, although they've been cutting theirs lately. And even Middlesborough, who are held up as a well run club, are £85million in debt! I found that quite surprising. No idea about the other clubs, wouldn't surprise me if the 3 who came up were quite well run by comparison. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Oh keep up, Edson. Debt is OK. You bundle up your bad debts with other debts that the debtors are bound to repay, pay a sophisticated rating agency to assess the bundle as Triple A rating, and then sell it on to other people who are heavily in debt. What could possibly go wrong? PS I got this sound advice from Sir Fred, who was knighted for his services to the financial sector, and Sir James, who was knighted for his...you know the rest... Exactly. Nothing could possibly go wrong. Surely........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Drew Peacock Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Well having gone through the process of setting up business accounts with overdrafts and taking business loans and raising VC funding over the past 5 or 6 years my experiences have been very different - all of the that was pretty rigorously assessed and the ongoing running was monitored quite closely. I really don't think HSBC just gave out a £6m overdraft on a whim nor called it in on one. Sounds like you did it 2002/2003 when I did too. The banks were a bit picky & cautious at the time. When we started the sale process winter 2006 everyone we met during the beauty parade to pick our sale advisers were saying that you could sell coals to Newcastle and Igloos to Eskimos at high prices - as was proved I am happy to say! Sense went out of the window. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 11, 2009 Report Share Posted February 11, 2009 Charlton's Chairman has admitted that HSBC have called in the overdraft facility amounting to around £6m. This could seriously snowball as other banks reign in their bad debts. If they take the admin route they must do so before 23rd March to have their 10 point deduction this season (they could be relegated by then anyways so would make sense. However if the points deduction would make no difference to a relegation scenario those points would be deducted next season (ie if they are relegated by more than 10 points). Other clubs may have no choice but to take the same route even if they are riding high in the table. Fingers crossed Cardiff are one of these....... I'm no lover of Charlton Athletic FC but as a football supporter I sympathize with their plight. I'd rather see some overpaid HSBC Toff banker work and die in a Stalinist Siberian Gulag than see Charlton Athletic FC fall. I was also watching Question Time tonight (11/02/09) and what struck me was the attitude of the New Labour traitor scummer that was delighting in British job losses and at the same time supporting the European Union and their workers that are taking British jobs. Smash the European Union and smash New Labour - bring back the likes of His Excellency Joe Stalin, Winston Churchill and Roosevelt to work these traitor European Union loving scummers over. The dear departed Joe Stalin - a man that could be trusted to give our corrupt bankers a good kicking in the Gulag...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alexrusselsboot Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Charlton's Chairman has admitted that HSBC have called in the overdraft facility amounting to around £6m. Maybe they'll be nationalised and owned by the taxpayers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted February 12, 2009 Report Share Posted February 12, 2009 Maybe they'll be nationalised and owned by the taxpayers. That's Communism - a BCFC Red Goblin as a part owner of Cockney rejects Charlton Athletic FC? - no thanks mate. My idyllic idea of Communism is watching some lowlife corrupt banker being worked to death in minus 40 degrees centigrade of frost in some God foresaken Siberian Stalinist Gulag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Economou Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 I'm no lover of Charlton Athletic FC but as a football supporter I sympathize with their plight. I'd rather see some overpaid HSBC Toff banker work and die in a Stalinist Siberian Gulag than see Charlton Athletic FC fall. I was also watching Question Time tonight (11/02/09) and what struck me was the attitude of the New Labour traitor scummer that was delighting in British job losses and at the same time supporting the European Union and their workers that are taking British jobs. Smash the European Union and smash New Labour - bring back the likes of His Excellency Joe Stalin, Winston Churchill and Roosevelt to work these traitor European Union loving scummers over. The dear departed Joe Stalin - a man that could be trusted to give our corrupt bankers a good kicking in the Gulag...... I'm confused, how did you manage to watch Question Time on wednesday 11th when it was broadcast last night, 12th ? Agreed the 'new' labour guy Byrne was a complete charlatan, used to work for that well know socialist establishment Rothschilds and fast-tracked into the cabinet, sums up 'new' labour really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted February 13, 2009 Report Share Posted February 13, 2009 Maybe they'll be nationalised and owned by the taxpayers. Yes. We cannot allow these clubs to fail as they would upset their fans. Nationalise them quick then we as taxpayer and owner can share in the massive wealth generated by these exceptionally well-run clubs. Or not. I always wondered which banks were stupid enough to lend to an industry where 90% of clubs make a loss. Now I know. Still, I am sure they enjoyed the free corporate box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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