Stern John V Southampton

[Whites]

If akinde played week in week out i'm confident he would score 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 at least - he looks really good when he comes on - he just doesn't have enough time to make an impact

Completely missing the point, IF lee Trundle played week in week out he would score 1 in 3 or better. He just HAS'NT had enough time (run in the team) to make an Impact.

[iWurzel]

No but you rubbish him in every thread you get a chance. It is tiresome.

Bloody hell this sounds familiar.

[Nogbad the Bad]

No but you rubbish him in every thread you get a chance. It is tiresome.

He didn't play well against Barnsley (even though he actually made our best chance in the 1st half) but he has improved in the last two games when given the chance. How about acknowledging that and giving the guy (with a proven track record in this league and beyond unlike Trundle for example) a chance?

So, Alex, although no apology is forthcoming, you apparently accept that I have not mentioned Stern John and excessive pie eating 'in every single thread' as you wildly and inaccurately accused me of in post 25.

As for Stern's ' proven track record in this League', I think you exaggerate somewhat but either way what he has done elsewhere is of absolutely no interest to me, what he does in the Red shirt of City is what counts - and us City fans have 'been giving him a chance' for close on 20 games now. In any case, had it not occurred to you that perhaps he's not as effective at this level as he used to be?

I shouldn't bother asking you any direct questions as you steadfastly refuse to answer them, but as for being tiresome, as you put it, what I find tiresome is you attempting to drag up an ancient disagreement about Christian Roberts on this forum, an argument that had run it's course about 3 years ago.

I suppose I should be flattered that my posts and opinions of that long ago made such an impression on you that you still remember them ( sorry to say, yours left no lasting impression on me ) but the fact you apparently still wish to argue about them to this day has an altogether more stultifying effect.

Furthermore when you wantonly accuse me of saying things which I have not then that, naturally, pees me off.

So, if you find my views as tiresome as you make out perhaps your best course of action would be to put me on 'ignore' - mind you as seemingly my number 1 forum fan this might be far too horrifying a prospect for you.

[Alex_BCFC]

So, Alex, although no apology is forthcoming, you apparently accept that I have not mentioned Stern John and excessive pie eating 'in every single thread' as you wildly and inaccurately accused me of in post 25.

As for Stern's ' proven track record in this League', I think you exaggerate somewhat but either way what he has done elsewhere is of absolutely no interest to me, what he does in the Red shirt of City is what counts - and us City fans have 'been giving him a chance' for close on 20 games now. In any case, had it not occurred to you that perhaps he's not as effective at this level as he used to be?

I shouldn't bother asking you any direct questions as you steadfastly refuse to answer them, but as for being tiresome, as you put it, what I find tiresome is you attempting to drag up an ancient disagreement about Christian Roberts on this forum, an argument that had run it's course about 3 years ago.

I suppose I should be flattered that my posts and opinions of that long ago made such an impression on you that you still remember them ( sorry to say, yours left no lasting impression on me ) but the fact you apparently still wish to argue about them to this day has an altogether more stultifying effect.

Furthermore when you wantonly accuse me of saying things which I have not then that, naturally, pees me off.

So, if you find my views as tiresome as you make out perhaps your best course of action would be to put me on 'ignore' - mind you as seemingly my number 1 forum fan this might be far too horrifying a prospect for you.

Yes, sorry, that your are bad mouthing one of players right now. Oh how terribly sorry I am.

I haven't exagerrated. I used facts about his goal scoring record in another thread. It has occured to me he may not be as effective and from what I have seen he still is effective but we seem to disagree somehwat on that...I think that has gone as far as it can but keep it coming if you wish.

I have answered all your questions I believe but point me in the direction of an unanswered one please. You seem to remember unanswered questions yet my posts have made no lasting impression. Strange...

Of course I remember your posts. Who could forget someone who loved Christian Roberst so much when he was an average league 1 player...?!

Why would I ignore you when you provide good entertainment?! I don't need to ignore anyone on here.

[Sir Colby-Tit]

Can he kick it?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Yes, sorry, Oh how terribly sorry I am.

There, not so hard was it?

Better late than never.

[Alex_BCFC]

There, not so hard was it?

Better late than never.

And of course I meant every word of it

[Nogbad the Bad]

And of course I meant every word of it

I know.

It takes a big man to eat humble pie and admit publicly that they were completely wrong.

Alex, your ill thought out accusation was derisory, and although you obviously found it difficult you managed, finally, to say openly that it was utter claptrap and how much you regretted it.

Sorry is indeed the hardest word.

Well done.

[Redtilldead]

I know.

It takes a big man to eat humble pie and admit publicly that they were completely wrong.

Alex, your ill thought out accusation was derisory, and although you obviously found it difficult you managed, finally, to say openly that it was utter claptrap and how much you regretted it.

Sorry is indeed the hardest word.

Well done.

Love it Nogbad,

[Guest Eamer]

Bit of an obvious answer really isn't it.

[SJC]

Nogbad;

If you base your opinion of a player solely on how they perform in a City shirt, can you please explain what Trundle has achieved to, not just be defended, but be so forthrightly promoted?

S****horpe, Norwich, Crystal Palace, Plymouth, Charlton.

The fact that I can name, off the top of my head, the majority of teams he has scored against in his nearly 2 year City career tends to suggest he hasnt been especially successful.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but he has scored about 7 goals in 60 appearances (roughly), and whilst I note you value entertainment while watching City, do you think that is a good enough record to justify the 'excitement' he brings to the team?

On one hand you have the flashy entertainer, on the other you have a player who has performed on a higher level (including internationals) and has proven they can consistently score goals at this level.

All things considered, why the staunch Trundle love in and the complete opposite for John?

If possible don't use the word lazy as he receives the ball to feet a great deal more than Trundle ever did - if you choose to blame that on team tactics that is your choice.

[vincent_bcfc]

Completely missing the point, IF lee Trundle played week in week out he would score 1 in 3 or better. He just HAS'NT had enough time (run in the team) to make an Impact.

ummmmm the start AND end of last season he had decent runs in the team and hardly scored therefore he did play week in week out and DIDNT score 1 in 3 or better

[Alex_BCFC]

Nogbad;

If you base your opinion of a player solely on how they perform in a City shirt, can you please explain what Trundle has achieved to, not just be defended, but be so forthrightly promoted?

S****horpe, Norwich, Crystal Palace, Plymouth, Charlton.

The fact that I can name, off the top of my head, the majority of teams he has scored against in his nearly 2 year City career tends to suggest he hasnt been especially successful.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but he has scored about 7 goals in 60 appearances (roughly), and whilst I note you value entertainment while watching City, do you think that is a good enough record to justify the 'excitement' he brings to the team?

On one hand you have the flashy entertainer, on the other you have a player who has performed on a higher level (including internationals) and has proven they can consistently score goals at this level.

All things considered, why the staunch Trundle love in and the complete opposite for John?

If possible don't use the word lazy as he receives the ball to feet a great deal more than Trundle ever did - if you choose to blame that on team tactics that is your choice.

Love it SJC

[4eveREDDy]

I know.

It takes a big man to eat humble pie and admit publicly that they were completely wrong.

Alex, your ill thought out accusation was derisory, and although you obviously found it difficult you managed, finally, to say openly that it was utter claptrap and how much you regretted it.

Sorry is indeed the hardest word.

Well done.

Ha ha nice one noggers, so we now all know who really is the pie eater, love it

[Nogbad the Bad]

Nogbad;

If you base your opinion of a player solely on how they perform in a City shirt, can you please explain what Trundle has achieved to, not just be defended, but be so forthrightly promoted?

S****horpe, Norwich, Crystal Palace, Plymouth, Charlton.

The fact that I can name, off the top of my head, the majority of teams he has scored against in his nearly 2 year City career tends to suggest he hasnt been especially successful.

Please correct me if I'm wrong but he has scored about 7 goals in 60 appearances (roughly), and whilst I note you value entertainment while watching City, do you think that is a good enough record to justify the 'excitement' he brings to the team?

On one hand you have the flashy entertainer, on the other you have a player who has performed on a higher level (including internationals) and has proven they can consistently score goals at this level.

All things considered, why the staunch Trundle love in and the complete opposite for John?

If possible don't use the word lazy as he receives the ball to feet a great deal more than Trundle ever did - if you choose to blame that on team tactics that is your choice.

SJC, as a courtesy:

I have given my opinion on Trundle/John in some detail on several current/recent threads and my answers to all your queries can be found amongst them.

If you are totally unpersuaded by any of my arguments, fair enough, but I don't intend to spend any more time regurgitating the same points.

Trundle is an exciting, entertaining crowd pleaser but if it is not be at City, so be it, I'll get over it - our loss in my opinion, and it will be a long time before another of his outstanding ilk dons a City shirt.

I hope your thus far baseless high regard for Stern quickly proves to have some foundation because if he has to be with City for the rest of the season then I want him hitting the net regularly just as much as you and his other fan, Alex.

Until that seemingly interminable wait is over I will continue to hope for an early recall for the Mercurial One, and look at Stern with ever increasing consternation and bewilderment that he has somehow managed to essentially usurp one of AG's favourite performers, Lee Trundle, from City's match day squad.

[SJC]

Thanks for the reply and apologies if I'm making you cover old ground.

My 'high regard' for John is far from baseless. I base my opinion on what I see on the pitch - clearly we all see different games, and his track record.

I enjoy Trundle's tricks as much as the next fan, but for me you are the one holding a player in 'high regard' without any real reason. The only suggestion you offer is his skill - id rather have Bas Savage than Trundle if he scored more frequently and personally couldnt give two hoots how entertained I was in the process. But thats football and thats people having different opinions - which of course is fine.

I just see it as rather hypocritical that you slate John for his scoring record while ignoring Trundle's measley total.

To ask again, and apologies if you have covered this elsewhere, does Trundle provide sufficient entertainment to warrant a record of 7 goals in 60 games (estimate)?

[Nogbad the Bad]

Thanks for the reply and apologies if I'm making you cover old ground.

My 'high regard' for John is far from baseless. I base my opinion on what I see on the pitch - clearly we all see different games, and his track record.

I enjoy Trundle's tricks as much as the next fan, but for me you are the one holding a player in 'high regard' without any real reason. The only suggestion you offer is his skill - id rather have Bas Savage than Trundle if he scored more frequently and personally couldnt give two hoots how entertained I was in the process. But thats football and thats people having different opinions - which of course is fine.

I just see it as rather hypocritical that you slate John for his scoring record while ignoring Trundle's measley total.

To ask again, and apologies if you have covered this elsewhere, does Trundle provide sufficient entertainment to warrant a record of 7 goals in 60 games (estimate)?

Not just entertainment, when Trundle comes on as a sub. the crowd are immediately fired up, the atmosphere is reinvigorated and it is no exaggeration to say it can therefore be almost the equivalent of bringing on 2 new players. The '12th Man' comes on with him, you could say.

As for Trundle's scoring record at AG, you will agree that City have been a low chance producing team (for the forwards at least) for a few season's now, and that Lee Trundle has not missed many chances actually created by team mates.

Don't forget, even in our promotion season our top scorer failed to even notch double figures.

In this context Trundle's 'measly' goal return is about par for the course in this City team, though obviously his are notched in a higher division.

Anyway we are comparing Trundle and John directly. So let's get to the nitty gritty - goalscoring for Bristol City - I'm not a statician but I'm confident Lee Trundle's goal per game ratio in a City shirt, 'measly' as it might be, is at least on a par with Stern John's paltry offering in a Red shirt.

[SJC]

Not just entertainment, when Trundle comes on as a sub. the crowd are immediately fired up, the atmosphere is reinvigorated and it is no exaggeration to say it can therefore be almost the equivalent of bringing on 2 new players. The '12th Man' comes on with him, you could say.

I agree that his arrival often stimulates the crowd - exactly how many points this has won us or how much this has contributed to us gaining any results is entirely theoretical and thus, while true, not really an ideal starting point for discussing why a player who cost £1 million and is a top earner at the club has a role to play here.

As for Trundle's scoring record at AG, you will agree that City have been a low chance producing team (for the forwards at least) for a few season's now, and that Lee Trundle has not missed many chances actually created by team mates.

Clearly we havent had a 'prolific' striker for some time, but even by those standards is 7 goals in 60 appearances justifiable? Byfield for example scored more and, without looking at the stats, I would imagine (I stand to be corrected on this!) he started far fewer games than Trundle.

In this context Trundle's 'measly' goal return is about par for the course in this City team, though obviously his are notched in a higher division.

So you are defending him on the basis that none of our strikers have had the chances to score so Lee must be a worthwhile member of the team?

Of the strikers last season only Adebola remain (along with Trundle clearly), perhaps those we have had at the club were simply not upto it on a consistent basis.

I understand the comparison you make but you cannot defend a player on these terms.

Anyway we are comparing Trundle and John directly. So let's get to the nitty gritty - goalscoring for Bristol City - I'm not a statician but I'm confident Lee Trundle's goal per game ratio in a City shirt, 'measly' as it might be, is at least on a par with Stern John's paltry offering in a Red shirt.

John certainly hasnt set the world alight with his goalscoring granted, but I continue to struggle how people cannot see the impact he has on the team. How he brings others into the game, how his touch is head and shoulders above any else at the club, it just plain baffles me. The last time I saw John play was Charlton at home, and while he was only on the pitch for a fraction of the game he must have touched the ball around 10 times. Every contribution he made was positive. He didnt lose the ball once.

The fact is that people look at John, while they watch Trundle. If Trundle does a drag back or produces some neat control - which he is more than capable of, the fans adore him, if Stern John receives the ball to feet, holds off his defender and contributes to an attacking move people turn a blind eye.

I swear if you put a 'player cam' on this guy people would say 'Well bugger me, he aint a bad player!'

Were Maynard and Sproule lying when they publically commented on his positive influence?

Because lets be honest here if Beckford came out praising Trundle and saying how he {Trundle} had brought the best out of him, this forum would be awash with such testimony.

For so long fans were crying out for a 'proven' striker at this level;

Stern John

Last season - 19 goals in 35 starts {for a poor team},

2006/07 - 9 goals in 29 starts; split between Sunderland and Coventry,

2005/06 - 11 goals in 25 starts for Coventry.

All of the above were Championship at worst. Now of course Trundle's '60' appearances are not all starts and I don't have the time right now to do a detailed break-down but, and I'm sorry if the truth is hard to hear for all the Trundle fans out there - he has done virtually nothing during his City career; and he is only granted the word 'virtually' because of his crucial play-off goal.

I have nothing against him. I too like him on the pitch and get excited when he gets the ball but there is only so far 'excitement' or flashy drag backs and step overs can get you. I'd love him to come back from Leeds and start scoring left, right and centre but it wont happen.

At this point in time he has shown absolutely nothing to prove he can play at this level - harsh I know against someone who does come across as a genuinelyy nice guy but there can be literally no other conclusion.

He has been given games, he hasnt delivered.

I promise you something, if Stern John makes as many appearances for this club as Trundle, he'll score a bloody lot more and people will, as they will anyway once Stern starts scoring, look back on Lee and say 'what a gifted player, but he just couldnt cut it consistently at this level.'

[Mrs Miggins Pie Shop]

Trundle, any day.

[Nogbad the Bad]

I agree that his arrival often stimulates the crowd - exactly how many points this has won us or how much this has contributed to us gaining any results is entirely theoretical and thus, while true, not really an ideal starting point for discussing why a player who cost £1 million and is a top earner at the club has a role to play here.

It wasn't a starting point for discussion, it was in reply to you asking if his goal record was sufficient to justify his place.

Clearly we havent had a 'prolific' striker for some time, but even by those standards is 7 goals in 60 appearances justifiable? Byfield for example scored more and, without looking at the stats, I would imagine (I stand to be corrected on this!) he started far fewer games than Trundle.

Byfield may have started fewer games but it was in a lower division. My point, clearly is NO players have scored highly for BCFC for some time.

So you are defending him on the basis that none of our strikers have had the chances to score so Lee must be a worthwhile member of the team?

Of the strikers last season only Adebola remain (along with Trundle clearly), perhaps those we have had at the club were simply not upto it on a consistent basis.

I understand the comparison you make but you cannot defend a player on these terms.

Well, Trundle's record at Ag stands up well against Stern John's - so perhaps HE, Stern John that is, is not up to it either.

John certainly hasnt set the world alight with his goalscoring granted,

No, Stern John has been disappointing, on that we can agree.

but I continue to struggle how people cannot see the impact he has on the team.

You DO, don't you.

How he brings others into the game, how his touch is head and shoulders above any else at the club, it just plain baffles me.

It must baffle GJ too, hence Stern's presently a bit part player.

The last time I saw John play was Charlton at home, and while he was only on the pitch for a fraction of the game he must have touched the ball around 10 times. Every contribution he made was positive. He didnt lose the ball once.

The fact is that people look at John, while they watch Trundle. If Trundle does a drag back or produces some neat control - which he is more than capable of, the fans adore him, if Stern John receives the ball to feet, holds off his defender and contributes to an attacking move people turn a blind eye.

Trundle excites the crowd, Stern doesn't. Apart from you and Alex that is.

I swear if you put a 'player cam' on this guy people would say 'Well bugger me, he aint a bad player!'

No one says Stern John is a bad player, simply that he has not produced much of note in 20 appearances for Bristol City.

Were Maynard and Sproule lying when they publically commented on his positive influence?

Not lying, but the comments were met with raised eyebrows by many. It could be seen as positive spin - what else could they say exactly if asked direct questions? Maynard can't get much positive on pitch help from Stern when he's on the bench, and City weren't looking for another coach as far as I know.

Because lets be honest here if Beckford came out praising Trundle and saying how he {Trundle} had brought the best out of him, this forum would be awash with such testimony.

Trundle's a very popular BCFC player, of course we want him to do well. Don't we?

For so long fans were crying out for a 'proven' striker at this level;

Well, a speedy striker, anyway. Maynard's that man and Trundle had little or no opportunity to play alongside him.

Stern John

Last season - 19 goals in 35 starts {for a poor team},

2006/07 - 9 goals in 29 starts; split between Sunderland and Coventry,

2005/06 - 11 goals in 25 starts for Coventry.

I thought you weren't a stat man? Anyway, I can only repeat that Stern's past record is irrelevant. It is what he achieves with BCFC that matters, nothing else. So far his goal ratio for City is very, very poor indeed.

All of the above were Championship at worst. Now of course Trundle's '60' appearances are not all starts and I don't have the time right now to do a detailed break-down

Oh, I thought you'd become a stat man judging from the above. The detailed breakdown would reveal that Trundle's goal ratio for City is superior to Stern's, I believe.

but, and I'm sorry if the truth is hard to hear for all the Trundle fans out there - he has done virtually nothing during his City career;

Stern, of course, has been magnificent.

and he is only granted the word 'virtually' because of his crucial play-off goal.

I have nothing against him. I too like him on the pitch and get excited when he gets the ball but there is only so far 'excitement' or flashy drag backs and step overs can get you. I'd love him to come back from Leeds and start scoring left, right and centre but it wont happen.

We shall see - GJ says that is indeed the plan. Are you saying he is being dishonest?

At this point in time he has shown absolutely nothing to prove he can play at this level

Actually, he's scored several outstanding goals at this level, so not absolutely nothing.

- harsh I know against someone who does come across as a genuinelyy nice guy but there can be literally no other conclusion.

I couldn't care less if he's a nice guy or not actually - like with all City players, and this temporarily includes Stern John - I am only interested in their performances for City.

He has been given games, he hasnt delivered.

So has John, he hasn't delivered.

I promise you something, if Stern John makes as many appearances for this club as Trundle,

He won't, there's only a third of the season left and, barring an unprecedented goal rush, he'll surely be on his way then.

he'll score a bloody lot more

Will he, no sign of that. He's been given several months and at the end of that time and a very prolonged first team run he's ended up on the bench. Had it occurred to you that perhaps he could be past his best?

and people will, as they will anyway once Stern starts scoring, look back on Lee and say 'what a gifted player, but he just couldnt cut it consistently at this level.'

Maybe, more likely they'll say, "That was a bloody strange decision to keep Stern John on after Christmas. We kept on assuming he had to come good eventually with his record, but it just didn't happen. If only we'd kept Lee Trundle..........."