Mom

[ooRya]

Red man dan, you have made a sterling effort at justifying your corner, however I have left the bit above in, because I actually laughed out loud when I read it!!

"LJ has done his job by not doing so" (winning the tackle). That is so funny, is that seriously what you mean?

Its what I mean in the post above about defending the indefensible. The Soton player brushed past LJ, Skuse sprinted twice as fast as LJ to get back, and you are suggesting that they were both fulfilling their jobs? Thats demarcation taken to an extraordinary level.

Yes I can see that Skuse is a more natural ball winner, but to suggest that LJ may abrogate any responsibility for anything until someone else has won the ball back, even when, as in the instance that was highlighted initially, LJ is in a much better position to make the challenge, well as I said, it made me laugh!

If you can prove to me that Johnson's instructions to Skuse are "you win the ball and give it to Lee" and if Johnson's instructions to Johnson are "you let the opposition run past and wait until Skuse has won it, but bloody well make sure you are in a position to receive it once he has done so", I will, what will I do, I will carry out a forfeit entirely of your choosing.

Sorry Nickj, but this post highlights exactly why you will never see the role LJ has in the team and just how effective he is at doing it. Blinkers firmly in place unfortunately.

I know when to stop flogging a dead horse, so I'll leave you to your LJ bashing from now on.

[NickJ]

Hmmm....obviously not happy with my analogies are you? Pardon me if I don't give a s***. I was hoping you'd do better than that.

The point that I am (obviously very badly) trying to get across to you, is that IF LJ was to "track back and get in the tackle to win the ball back" as you so desperately seem to want him to, then he would not be able to get into the positions that he does to receive the ball and get City's forward momentum going again. Like Skuse for example wouldnt be capable of doing that? I accept Skuse is a natural ball winner and LJ is not, but does that mean that if LJ is 5 yards from the ball, and Skuse is 50 yards away, LJ should step aside, jog back and wait until someone else has won it. All I want him to do is make a decent challenge when he is in a position to do so.

When there are other players on the pitch that are much better at tackling and winning the ball than LJ is, why do you insist that he should be doing it? For the same reason that Noble's crtics say he is lazy. At which point I declare an interest - namely that, even if it is accepted that LJ cant tackle, and Noble is lazy, I do not for the life of me understand how LJ played week after week through a run of extremely poor form while Noble, with his superior scoring record, creativity and ability to run at a defence, was consistently sub or not even in the squad. I trust GJ's decisions, but I do believe I am still allowed an opinion.

Why do you knock a system that got 2 promotions for Yeovil and almost got back to back promotions for Bristol City? Because I'm a perfectionist.

Bizarre.

The only thing that is bizzare are the views expressed on here, by some that LJ tracks back and does tackle as well as anyone else, and by others that it doesnt matter that he doesnt.

[red man dan]

Red man dan, you have made a sterling effort at justifying your corner, however I have left the bit above in, because I actually laughed out loud when I read it!!

"LJ has done his job by not doing so" (winning the tackle). That is so funny, is that seriously what you mean?

Its what I mean in the post above about defending the indefensible. The Soton player brushed past LJ, Skuse sprinted twice as fast as LJ to get back, and you are suggesting that they were both fulfilling their jobs? Thats demarcation taken to an extraordinary level.

Yes I can see that Skuse is a more natural ball winner, but to suggest that LJ may abrogate any responsibility for anything until someone else has won the ball back, even when, as in the instance that was highlighted initially, LJ is in a much better position to make the challenge, well as I said, it made me laugh!

Yes that is exactly what i meant, and has been mentioned by an other poster if you do not see the relevance of the above post then this is a no win situation. LJ is of course not exempt from ALL ball wiining duties, HOWEVER it is not his role to make the winning of the ball one of his main responsibilities. For him to track back in the sense of 'chasing the ball down' to regain possesion, on a number of occasions will be counter productive to how we play our game and will be counter to the needs of his role in the team.

[edson]

Fair enough, if that is what was behind it, however on this thread up to the point Edson made his comment, it was only me that had questioned aspects of LJ's game, therefore I assumed that Edson's comments were aimed at me.

It was indeed what was behind it, and you weren't the only one to have questioned aspects of his game up to that point. I don't see you as somebody who wants Lee out of the team just because of who he is, but there seem to be a fair few who do.

Criticism is fair enough of any player, where it's justified. However, on far too many occasions on this forum, I read comments about Lee only being in the team because his Dad is manager and how he wouldn't get in any other Championship team. I can only assume those people don't see what he does and don't look at the midfields of some of the teams we play.

Of course Lee isn't the complete player, otherwise he'd be Steven Gerrard and worth £25m. But the way he is singled out time and time again is ridiculous and unfair, and is why it is absolutely necessary for other posters to redress the balance by pointing out what he does bring to the side and defending him far more than would be needed if others would only acknolwedge that.

[Donkeeebles]

Sorry Nickj, but this post highlights exactly why you will never see the role LJ has in the team and just how effective he is at doing it. Blinkers firmly in place unfortunately.

I know when to stop flogging a dead horse, so I'll leave you to your LJ bashing from now on.

Well i have read through some of this thread.......not all of it i admit because there are some very long and well put posts and i just havent got the time.........but ooRya i find this comment unbelievable. Nicks opinion if Lj is obviously different to yours but what he has done throughout this thread is consistantly say that he felt LJ had a decent game and that he is Technically an excellent player. The critisisms that he has made of Lj he has backed up with examples and thoughtfull comments as to why he feels LJ doesnt do the job that he would expect of a central midfielder when they havent got the ball. You on the other hand seem to have chosen to ignore all those examples and comments and decided that Nick has his blinkers firmly in place and Just bashed Lj for the sake of bashing him.

Please please feel free to disagree with Nick and anybody else on this forum as much as you like but for **** sake don't just decide that because they don't agree with you then their opinion is blinkered.

For what it is worth i think Lj is a decent player with the ball at his feet but i agree that when we are not in possesion he does not bring a lot to the team. And i don't agree that tracking back/Tackling/ whatever you want to call it isnt Lj's job. I believe it is the job of every player to do all of this when we are defending. The fitness levels of players are higher now than they have ever been before so this part of the game should be easier than it has ever been before. So far we have 2 players on the pitch that according to some are exempt from doing their part when we are not in possesion of the ball. Lj and Stern. This is because they are "not that sort of player". I am afraid i don't understand that.

This is only how i see it. I always try(i hope) to give every player the benifit of the doubt (including Stern before anyone says it). I have argued Lj's case many times on here before but this time i do happen to believe he could do more. I hope thats not being Blinkered or bashing him in anyway.

[Donkeeebles]

Hmmm....obviously not happy with my analogies are you? Pardon me if I don't give a s***.

The point that I am (obviously very badly) trying to get across to you, is that IF LJ was to "track back and get in the tackle to win the ball back" as you so desperately seem to want him to, then he would not be able to get into the positions that he does to receive the ball and get City's forward momentum going again.

When there are other players on the pitch that are much better at tackling and winning the ball than LJ is, why do you insist that he should be doing it?

Why do you knock a system that got 2 promotions for Yeovil and almost got back to back promotions for Bristol City?

Bizarre.

The Lj talk in this thread started with the comment that Lj was closer to the advancing southampton player than skuse was yet skuse was the one who ended up making up more ground than Lj and making the tackle...........a tackle that some would say should have been made by Lj......who was initially the closer player. You are right in saying that if Lj made the tackle then he wouldnt have been in a position to receive the ball and get city's forward momentum going again..my argument to that would be if Lj made the tackle then why couldnt Skuse be the one to receive the ball and get our forward momentum going??????...........is that not possible.......is skuse not capable of doing that on this one occasion????????..........isnt that the sign of a good midfield pairing......that occasionally, just occasionally they can swap roles for the good of the team..........not all the time.........just occasionally, when it may be required?????

Just a thought!!!!!!!

[Economou]

The Lj talk in this thread started with the comment that Lj was closer to the advancing southampton player than skuse was yet skuse was the one who ended up making up more ground than Lj and making the tackle...........a tackle that some would say should have been made by Lj......who was initially the closer player. You are right in saying that if Lj made the tackle then he wouldnt have been in a position to receive the ball and get city's forward momentum going again..my argument to that would be if Lj made the tackle then why couldnt Skuse be the one to receive the ball and get our forward momentum going??????...........is that not possible.......is skuse not capable of doing that on this one occasion????????..........isnt that the sign of a good midfield pairing......that occasionally, just occasionally they can swap roles for the good of the team..........not all the time.........just occasionally, when it may be required?????

Just a thought!!!!!!!

The original post is factually incorrect as Skuse did not make the recovery tackle, didn't get within 5 yards of the player in fact.

[ooRya]

The Lj talk in this thread started with the comment that Lj was closer to the advancing southampton player than skuse was yet skuse was the one who ended up making up more ground than Lj and making the tackle...........a tackle that some would say should have been made by Lj......who was initially the closer player. You are right in saying that if Lj made the tackle then he wouldnt have been in a position to receive the ball and get city's forward momentum going again..my argument to that would be if Lj made the tackle then why couldnt Skuse be the one to receive the ball and get our forward momentum going??????...........is that not possible.......is skuse not capable of doing that on this one occasion????????..........isnt that the sign of a good midfield pairing......that occasionally, just occasionally they can swap roles for the good of the team..........not all the time.........just occasionally, when it may be required?????

Just a thought!!!!!!!

Donkeeebles,

Can I suggest that you read the post below by Red Man Dan, as this puts across my feelings on this much better than I have managed to.

If LJ did all the things you seem to wish for him to do we would have the first all round super midfielder in the world who is capable of doing the varying roles of about 4 different types of midfielders all at once. LJ is not the same 'type' of MF as cole skuse or Elliot or williams, and therefore his job is very different to theirs as theirs is to his. I'm not sure if there is really any point in discussing this in any way as you clearly seem to be unable to accpet that it is not his responcibility to play the hard tackling tracking back midfielder.

If you don't accept his role as the 'sitting' MF who is there to recieve the ball from the defense ,start an attack, offer an option out of the wings to switch play and so forth then you are constantly going to be dissapointed by him as he is NOT going to be doing the same tracking back as Skuse. This however does not mean he DOESNT track back, you don't have to put in a TACKLE to have tracked back, and by being a 'sitting' MF as i have put it, does not mean you are not running around. On many occasions Skuse/Elliot will track back more visably by going that extra 5 meters towards the ball and tackling, you may see them 'overtake' LJ in that respect, HOWEVER in that same tracking back scenario, LJ does not just stand around, he makes those 5 meters up by moving into positions and space to recieve the ball when it has been won back. This is no less effective on the whole than making that tackle, as it is a team game which is domintated by the ability to hold possesion, IF in at the point Skuse/elliot wins the ball back there is knowone in a position in the middle of the field to recieve the ball, we either a)lose possesion through lack of forward options, or b) we are forced to pass the ball in a confined defesive area which is clearly risky and is counter productive to starting an attacking move of our own.

So what is done to stop the above from happening, is that a 'TEAM' has different MF who are capable of doing 'different' things and who provide different abilites and attributes to the team. LJ will not be required in the most part to make that ground and make the tackle, it is not his job, he will be required to make the ground in a different direction(often not seen) and to offer those whose job it is to get back an option for a pass. He has covered no less ground, it just isnt seen. There are so many parts of players games that some people are just oblivious to and it seems to me that some city fans only have the ability to see the game in its simple one dimentional form, i.e man get ball, man lose ball, man run, man tackle, man amazing at game, man who not run and tackle lazy weak and rubbish. The same annotations could be made to the performances of Stern John and the subsequent abuse he has recieved, but that is a whole different matter.

The fact is, LJ does what is required of him as the type of MF he is, and the role he is meant to play in the 'team' he does very well. You will not see him screaming down the middle of the pitch to make a tackle, as the result is, he is out of position, with knowone to pass the ball to, and if there is, it may be skuse who is also now out of position and wondering what to do with it when he gets it, wondering what position he should have taken up, wondering where are my wingers, where are NM or Dele, why am i here, this isnt my role, this is LJ's, i should have made that tackle and then found LJ who could then make this pass for me.SAME MIDFIELD UNIT, DIFFERENT PLAYERS,DIFFERENT ROLES, SAME OVERALL COMBINED AIM (keep possesion, gain possesion, use possesion, exploit possesion, deny opposition possesion), each MF is less and more involved in his part to play in all of the above, each of them has varying and different roles to play in order to achieve the above, but the overall end is achieved by them all doing what it is they are required to do.

I just find it incredably hard to believe that Nickj and others can't ( or refuse to?) see the points made in Red Dan Man's post.

Let's face it, LJ is pretty hopeless at tackling and is a very long way from being the quickest player on the pitch so why do people think that he should run after a player that he's never going to catch to attempt a tackle that he's never going to make? Surely it's not difficult to see that it makes far more sense for him to move to a position where he can be most effective when the ball is back in City's posession?

Besides, it's not as if LJ never attempts to tackle, which is what some people seem to suggest.

As for the "tone" of my replies to Nickj....well, there were 2 reasons for that. Firstly, I was sat watching the Southampton game last weekend, and in the 1st half I was sat thinking "I hope all the LJ bashers are watching this because LJ is really showing his class today", as he was having an excellent game. OK, he was not so good in the 2nd half, but neither was the whole team. But what happens on this forum? Yes, another thread where someone feels the need to point out a perceived "mistake/error/fault" re LJ.

Secondly, my tone towards Nickj was set by the condescending tone of his reply to my 2nd post in this thread.

[Donkeeebles]

Donkeeebles,

Can I suggest that you read the post below by Red Man Dan, as this puts across my feelings on this much better than I have managed to.

If LJ did all the things you seem to wish for him to do we would have the first all round super midfielder in the world who is capable of doing the varying roles of about 4 different types of midfielders all at once. LJ is not the same 'type' of MF as cole skuse or Elliot or williams, and therefore his job is very different to theirs as theirs is to his. I'm not sure if there is really any point in discussing this in any way as you clearly seem to be unable to accpet that it is not his responcibility to play the hard tackling tracking back midfielder.

If you don't accept his role as the 'sitting' MF who is there to recieve the ball from the defense ,start an attack, offer an option out of the wings to switch play and so forth then you are constantly going to be dissapointed by him as he is NOT going to be doing the same tracking back as Skuse. This however does not mean he DOESNT track back, you don't have to put in a TACKLE to have tracked back, and by being a 'sitting' MF as i have put it, does not mean you are not running around. On many occasions Skuse/Elliot will track back more visably by going that extra 5 meters towards the ball and tackling, you may see them 'overtake' LJ in that respect, HOWEVER in that same tracking back scenario, LJ does not just stand around, he makes those 5 meters up by moving into positions and space to recieve the ball when it has been won back. This is no less effective on the whole than making that tackle, as it is a team game which is domintated by the ability to hold possesion, IF in at the point Skuse/elliot wins the ball back there is knowone in a position in the middle of the field to recieve the ball, we either a)lose possesion through lack of forward options, or b) we are forced to pass the ball in a confined defesive area which is clearly risky and is counter productive to starting an attacking move of our own.

So what is done to stop the above from happening, is that a 'TEAM' has different MF who are capable of doing 'different' things and who provide different abilites and attributes to the team. LJ will not be required in the most part to make that ground and make the tackle, it is not his job, he will be required to make the ground in a different direction(often not seen) and to offer those whose job it is to get back an option for a pass. He has covered no less ground, it just isnt seen. There are so many parts of players games that some people are just oblivious to and it seems to me that some city fans only have the ability to see the game in its simple one dimentional form, i.e man get ball, man lose ball, man run, man tackle, man amazing at game, man who not run and tackle lazy weak and rubbish. The same annotations could be made to the performances of Stern John and the subsequent abuse he has recieved, but that is a whole different matter.

The fact is, LJ does what is required of him as the type of MF he is, and the role he is meant to play in the 'team' he does very well. You will not see him screaming down the middle of the pitch to make a tackle, as the result is, he is out of position, with knowone to pass the ball to, and if there is, it may be skuse who is also now out of position and wondering what to do with it when he gets it, wondering what position he should have taken up, wondering where are my wingers, where are NM or Dele, why am i here, this isnt my role, this is LJ's, i should have made that tackle and then found LJ who could then make this pass for me.SAME MIDFIELD UNIT, DIFFERENT PLAYERS,DIFFERENT ROLES, SAME OVERALL COMBINED AIM (keep possesion, gain possesion, use possesion, exploit possesion, deny opposition possesion), each MF is less and more involved in his part to play in all of the above, each of them has varying and different roles to play in order to achieve the above, but the overall end is achieved by them all doing what it is they are required to do.

I just find it incredably hard to believe that Nickj and others can't ( or refuse to?) see the points made in Red Dan Man's post.

Let's face it, LJ is pretty hopeless at tackling and is a very long way from being the quickest player on the pitch so why do people think that he should run after a player that he's never going to catch to attempt a tackle that he's never going to make? Surely it's not difficult to see that it makes far more sense for him to move to a position where he can be most effective when the ball is back in City's posession?

Besides, it's not as if LJ never attempts to tackle, which is what some people seem to suggest.

As for the "tone" of my replies to Nickj....well, there were 2 reasons for that. Firstly, I was sat watching the Southampton game last weekend, and in the 1st half I was sat thinking "I hope all the LJ bashers are watching this because LJ is really showing his class today", as he was having an excellent game. OK, he was not so good in the 2nd half, but neither was the whole team. But what happens on this forum? Yes, another thread where someone feels the need to point out a perceived "mistake/error/fault" re LJ.

Secondly, my tone towards Nickj was set by the condescending tone of his reply to my 2nd post in this thread.

ooRya

These points are fair enough and i don't disagree with them as a whole. I agree LJ performs role in the team to good effect. I certainly don't expect him to be a super Midfielder with all the attributes combined into one and i am pretty sure Nick J doesnt expect this as well. I just believe that from time to time all players are going to be put in a position where they have to perform another players "duty" so to speak and that in the example given at the start of the thread this was in some peoples opinion one of those occasions.

Just a couple of comments regarding the red man dan post though. In the 4th paragraph Red man gives a scenario that if Lj did do a ball winning duty and gave it to Skuse then skuse wouldnt know what to do with it ( I quote "why am i here, this isnt my role, this is LJ's, i should have made that tackle and then found LJ who could then make this pass for me.") This IMO is extremely unfair and i feel insulting to Skuse who if put in that position would i am sure be capable of playing a pass to another team mate, if he doesnt then he shouldnt be playing football for a living.

Secondly again i quote "There are so many parts of players games that some people are just oblivious to and it seems to me that some city fans only have the ability to see the game in its simple one dimentional form, i.e man get ball, man lose ball, man run, man tackle, man amazing at game, man who not run and tackle lazy weak and rubbish. The same annotations could be made to the performances of Stern John and the subsequent abuse he has recieved"

It really really really pisses me off that because i don't think Stern John has done very well for us since his arrival (i understand this comment wasnt aimed at me but it does apply to me) and now because i feel that there are parts of LJ's game that could be improved and that i don't just feel that both players are only only on the pitch to fulfil 1 role and 1 role only and are excused from any other duties, i get it thrown back that i obviously don't see the roles they both perform and that i only have the ability to see the game in it's "one dimensinal form" and am not inteligent or knowledgable enough to appreciate the subtle more intricate parts of both players games. Well i believe i have got knowledge of the game(granted it may be limited) and i am capable of seeing the good things that LJ and stern do.

[red man dan]

ooRya

Just a couple of comments regarding the red man dan post though. In the 4th paragraph Red man gives a scenario that if Lj did do a ball winning duty and gave it to Skuse then skuse wouldnt know what to do with it ( I quote "why am i here, this isnt my role, this is LJ's, i should have made that tackle and then found LJ who could then make this pass for me.") This IMO is extremely unfair and i feel insulting to Skuse who if put in that position would i am sure be capable of playing a pass to another team mate, if he doesnt then he shouldnt be playing football for a living.

I don't for one second believe that Skuse 'IF' required to do this would NOT be able to do so. As a pro footballer, i am sure he could, however given that he has other area's of his game in which he is better equipped both personally and for the team as a whole, he is clealry not required to this for the current city team. Therefore, during training, they will mostly concentrate on the tactics that require him to win the ball back and pass it out of play rather than recieve it in the scenraio i highlighted and create the attack(his ball for williams against barnlsey?? proves he can play a killer ball). It is not a lack of his ability that prompted my saying what i did, clealry he would not be as comfortable in a position he is not drilled in on a regular basis. No player will perform aswell in a position or situation in which they don't train for, yet they will all have a base ability in all area's. To sum it up, what i mean is that based on the way city set up and therefore i assume train for, Skuse will not be as comfortable in that scenario as LJ would.

[Donkeeebles]

I don't for one second believe that Skuse 'IF' required to do this would NOT be able to do so. As a pro footballer, i am sure he could, however given that he has other area's of his game in which he is better equipped both personally and for the team as a whole, he is clealry not required to this for the current city team. Therefore, during training, they will mostly concentrate on the tactics that require him to win the ball back and pass it out of play rather than recieve it in the scenraio i highlighted and create the attack(his ball for williams against barnlsey?? proves he can play a killer ball). It is not a lack of his ability that prompted my saying what i did, clealry he would not be as comfortable in a position he is not drilled in on a regular basis. No player will perform aswell in a position or situation in which they don't train for, yet they will all have a base ability in all area's. To sum it up, what i mean is that based on the way city set up and therefore i assume train for, Skuse will not be as comfortable in that scenario as LJ would.

I absolutely agree Red man. What i don't believe is that players like Stern and Lj are excused doing other jobs just because it isnt their main role to do so. Yes in an ideal world it would be Skuse or Elliots winning the ball and Lj or williams on hand to pick up the pieces........but this isnt an ideal world is it.Every player form Basso to John are all required from time to time to do something other than what they are primarily in the team to do. Be it tracking back from Lj or Stern to scoring a winner from McCombe or Carey. All i and i think maybe a couple of others are trying to say is that chasing back and tackling/winning the ball back is a weak part of LJ's game. It doesnt mean i wouldnt pick him every game and that he isnt at times a very effective player for us......it just means that at times i think we are left a little exposed in the middle of the park when we don't have possesion and that IMO Lj could do more than he currently does.