Is Gary Johnson Being Naive?

['Orns]

Consolidation is for people who are willing to accept second best, BCFC should never do that.

Have to disagree there! Consolidation is for clubs who spent 9 seasons on the trot in Division 3! As Garlic Bread said somewhere near the top of this thread (I think it was this one, taken me bloomin ages to read!) the whole Wembley thing is turning into a curse! If we'd have finished 14th and 10th then we'd all be singing GJ's praises, this 4th place has made it difficult for him.

This time last year I was having nightmares at the thought of City being in the Prem, we weren't ready for it. Hull were 2 years (?) further down the line than us, and as people have pointed out it's taken Burnley 8 years to get there. They've been up and down, been through a few managers, but fair shout to them, they are there now. And as much as people might not like to read what Edson said about being happy taking us 8 years to get there, I think we'd all settle for it! I'd rather it takes us 8 years to get there than mess it all up and end up back in Div 3 with the mighty G*sh, Swindle, Yeovil etc. in 2 years time.

On the other side I'm with everyone who says 3 or 4 signings might be a little light this summer though. Cracks are appearing in the squad and certain people need replacing. GJ isn't stupid, if us non pro's can see it - he sure as hell can. It's now up to whether he's got the balls to rip apart the 'group of lads' that have served him so well over the last 3 seasons. I'm sure he has, and the one thing he does know is that SL will back him all the way - he's proved it time and time before.

[bully]

Not irrelevant at all. Where you've come from is entirely relevant to where you are now.

Or should Newcastle United fans be as satisfied with a place in the Championship as S****horpe United?

The here and now is what matters - simply because we are at a higher level than x years ago is meaningless if we are not progressing on AND off the pitch.

All this 'remember where we were before GJ arrived' is precisely what makes him the complacent, arrogant man he appears to be to some fans - not you of course.

[edson]

Wrong attitude imo.

I remember Johnson saying that at the start of our first CCC season that he had asked the players what their ambitions were for the upcoming season. Apparently they wanted to get promoted. Thats a great attitude to have and no doubt part of the reason that City did so well. No point turning up if you have a defeatest attitude. Imagine what the player reaction would have been if Johnson had said 'ah well, were up againt Shefield Utd, Wolves, West Brom and they all have more money than us'

That positive attitude should have been propelled forward into last season by Johnson stregthening far more than he did. At the end of that play-off season City had confidence and momentum and with a few tweeks and additions there was no reason why that couldn't have been carried into the following season but that didn't happen.

Imo City stagnated last season. They lost that confidence and momentum and apart from one decent spell of about 10 games last season they didn't find it again.

But.. I am optimistic that over the summer we see some additions to the squad. I just hope he doesn't about the midfield.

You misunderstand.

The point is, whilst aiming for promotion, there is no need to lose sight of where we are and be satisfied overall with the progress we've made in the last few years. That isn't resting on laurels, a defeatist attitude or whatever you want to call it. It's ambition tempered with an understanding of the inherent difficulties in achieving everything you want in sport, or in life for that matter.

Ask me what I hope the aim is for next season and I will say promotion. Ask Gary Johnson, Steve Lansdown, Louis Carey or anyone else and I am sure they would answer the same. But that doesn't make a 10th place finish failure, unless you are at a point where you steadfastly expect promotion and nothing else is good enough. If you are at that stage, then I suggest you don't appreciate what a tall order it is to achieve that aim.

Lots of clubs in this division have precisely the same aim as us. Lots of clubs in this division can offer the same, if not better, wages. Lots of clubs in this division already have players as good as ours and managers working hard to bring in players that will improve their squads.

Something has got to give. We can't all get promoted, we can't all achieve our aims, because sport doesn't allow for that. If it was as simple as a tweak here, a positive attitude there and a bit of momentum there, then everyone would be doing it. And, if everyone was doing it, something would still have to give.

We are competing well at this level. There is no shame in being pleased with that and there is no negativity in saying it.

The here and now is what matters - simply because we are at a higher level than x years ago is meaningless if we are not progressing on AND off the pitch.

All this 'remember where we were before GJ arrived' is precisely what makes him the complacent, arrogant man he appears to be to some fans - not you of course.

Of course the here and now matters, but the progress we have made in recent seasons is entirely relevant to how we should look at our current position.

No, not to me. If you consider him to be complacent, then I'd like to know how that has manifested itself, in your eyes.

[bully]

If you consider him to be complacent, then I'd like to know how that has manifested itself, in your eyes.

I consider him arrogant and complacent in how he regards any criticism of him from any sections of the support.

Not surprising he is complacent with another four years of guaranteed employment of course.

We will never agree on this subject but its a forum after all - it's a matter of perception.

I simply feel that he acheived media 'stardom' relatively late in his managerial career, and its gone to his head a bit.

I find it funny that people will even claim he's misquoted when his comments are available 'on screen'

Plenty will disagree with me, and plenty will agree - however, if he's taking the club forwards then no-one cares and that is the point of debate.

I don't know what the financial model is like, but I guess that it has an aim of being debt free, and non reliant upon SL's largesse.

To acheive that, GJ won't get much of a budget so has to be creative in the transfer and loan market - I haven't seen many blinders in the transfer market over the past 18 months or so, and GJ himself says he doesn't like the loan market.

Being ineffective in one area, and disinterested in the other puts more pressure on the manager to deliver with what he has assembled.

I am not personally convinced that we will progress as a club unless the manager improves in both areas for as long as we apparently don't pay as much as the majority of the clubs in the CCC.

If we finish say 16th next term will you still say that we should remember where we are now, where we were pre GJ and should be grateful somehow?

Never too old to learn, and GJ should up his game and that of his off field staff just like the team, who generally do their very best .

[havanatopia]

This team will never score many goals with no width.

Goals in his division will come from crossing the ball into the box and getting of the end of it...plus the secondary chances of mdifielders running in behind (how many goals did the midfielders score again?)

At the moment, all we do is either lump it or play through the middle...to get a team that plays that way to finish 4th and 10th is great...and it shows we have a solid defence, pace, confidence and all round great fitness.

Think how great we could be if we also have wingers who can get to the byline and cross into the box

arghhhh, Clive Whitehead.,.. sublime crosser of the ball. Garland not bad either when pressed into a wide role. Those were them days.

[chinapig]

I consider him arrogant and complacent in how he regards any criticism of him from any sections of the support.

Not surprising he is complacent with another four years of guaranteed employment of course.

You seem to be arguing that if he responds to, and disagrees with, criticism, he is arrogant. Would the same apply to anybody on this forum who did likewise? The argument seems to boil down to he disagrees with me therefore he is arrogant. Sometimes I agree with him sometimes I don't. Presumably that would make each of us arrogant half of the time.

As to complacency you express an opinion as though it's a fact. He has a long contract therefore he ic complacent doesn't seem to necessarily follow. There seems to be some good evidence that stability benefits clubs who don't hire and fire at regular intervals' David Moyes being a good example who might have been sacked when Everton were at the wrong end of the table.

But as you say all a matter of opinion.

[chinapig]

I consider him arrogant and complacent in how he regards any criticism of him from any sections of the support.

Not surprising he is complacent with another four years of guaranteed employment of course.

On reflection your post got me thinking about Managers responding to criticism. The first four that came to mind were Ferguson, Benitez, Wenger and Mourinho; all a bit grumpy at times. Allardyce and Moyes are rarely a barrel of laughs, not to mention the likes of Strachan and O'Neill. At our level McCarthy, Warnock and the like come to mind and of course Roy Keane . In contrast Mowbray and Southgate aren't like that at all and there is of course that nice little chap Trolllope. Not a scientific selection of course but it did make me wonder if there is a correlation between their attitude and their achievements. Are the grumpy ones more driven than the nice guys?

[bully]

On reflection your post got me thinking about Managers responding to criticism. The first four that came to mind were Ferguson, Benitez, Wenger and Mourinho; all a bit grumpy at times. Allardyce and Moyes are rarely a barrel of laughs, not to mention the likes of Strachan and O'Neill. At our level McCarthy, Warnock and the like come to mind and of course Roy Keane . In contrast Mowbray and Southgate aren't like that at all and there is of course that nice little chap Trolllope. Not a scientific selection of course but it did make me wonder if there is a correlation between their attitude and their achievements. Are the grumpy ones more driven than the nice guys?

Not sure whether only nice guys win, but I wouldn't mention GJ in the same breath as any of those you mentioned above because they have all acheived more than he has - Trollope excepted of course.

The impression GJ makes on me is a personal thing - perception as you say.

[bully]

You seem to be arguing that if he responds to, and disagrees with, criticism, he is arrogant. Would the same apply to anybody on this forum who did likewise? The argument seems to boil down to he disagrees with me therefore he is arrogant. Sometimes I agree with him sometimes I don't. Presumably that would make each of us arrogant half of the time.

Not surprisingly perhaps I don't agree - GJ is effectively a public figure and should be above reacting as he has.He has a priviledged position, obtained through his abilities of course, but he should take the (very small amount of) rough with the smooth

As to complacency you express an opinion as though it's a fact. He has a long contract therefore he ic complacent doesn't seem to necessarily follow. There seems to be some good evidence that stability benefits clubs who don't hire and fire at regular intervals' David Moyes being a good example who might have been sacked when Everton were at the wrong end of the table.

Man U and Everton are great examples of continuity bringing success - not too many other examples I can think of, but i'm not saying sack GJ am I? Continuity can be acheived without issuing 5 year contracts if each party is honest with each other.

If he's as committed to City as many believe, then a new, shorter contract would surely have given him the motivation, whilst keeping him on his toes.

Ancient history, he has the deal and I don't personally believe it has helped.

But as you say all a matter of opinion.

[chinapig]

Not sure whether only nice guys win, but I wouldn't mention GJ in the same breath as any of those you mentioned above because they have all acheived more than he has - Trollope excepted of course.

The impression GJ makes on me is a personal thing - perception as you say.

Sure, I was referring to a personality trait, though Gary's track record as a Manager compares favourably with most in the Football League I would think. Perception as you say is a personal thing; there is no right or wrong. Fair enough.