Rovers Have Been Invited

[Milo]

The link below is a recent article about the impact on the South African economy of next year's World Cup. There are interesting comments about the feel-good effect, how businesses other than tourism, hospitality and sport can benefit, the effect that the World Cup had on Germany's perception and tourism, and the projected doubling of annual tourism in the five years following 2010.

In the following paragraph I've amended the figures that appear in South African Rands into sterling:

"The 2007 Grant Thornton Report offers attractive estimates of the impact of the event on the South African economy. They expect around 300,000 overseas and more than 48,000 African visitors to stream into the country for the spectacle, spending £720 million here. Ticket sales alone are estimated at £250 million. The GDP is expected to be boosted with at least £3.9 billion for the period 2006 to 2010, sustaining 196,400 jobs. A further £550 million will flow back into government coffers in the form of taxes and revenue."

If we crudely assume that Bristol as a host city might get 1/10th of those projected figures we're looking at 34,800 visitors, £72 million spent, boost to local GDP (the measure of the economy) of £390 million over the four years up to the date of the tournament, and nearly 20,000 jobs. There are bound to be differences in the financial figures and job creation for England compared to South Africa (possibly more £, fewer jobs?) but this gives a flavour of the massive positive impact this event could have if we land it.

http://www.webnewswire.com/node/458405

[Percy Parrot]

Intersting but the club are quoting figures of up to a hundred million pounds. Is this just a notional figure or based on host cities in Germany?

I think the £100m is a Bristol City Council figure and based on five games generating around £20m each. I've not looked into the economics of it but think that's very achievable.

[Frome Valley]

The link below is a recent article about the impact on the South African economy of next year's World Cup. There are interesting comments about the feel-good effect, how businesses other than tourism, hospitality and sport can benefit, the effect that the World Cup had on Germany's perception and tourism, and the projected doubling of annual tourism in the five years following 2010.

In the following paragraph I've amended the figures that appear in South African Rands into sterling:

"The 2007 Grant Thornton Report offers attractive estimates of the impact of the event on the South African economy. They expect around 300,000 overseas and more than 48,000 African visitors to stream into the country for the spectacle, spending £720 million here. Ticket sales alone are estimated at £250 million. The GDP is expected to be boosted with at least £3.9 billion for the period 2006 to 2010, sustaining 196,400 jobs. A further £550 million will flow back into government coffers in the form of taxes and revenue."

If we crudely assume that Bristol as a host city might get 1/10th of those projected figures we're looking at 34,800 visitors, £72 million spent, boost to local GDP (the measure of the economy) of £390 million over the four years up to the date of the tournament, and nearly 20,000 jobs. There are bound to be differences in the financial figures and job creation for England compared to South Africa (possibly more £, fewer jobs?) but this gives a flavour of the massive positive impact this event could have if we land it.

http://www.webnewswire.com/node/458405

If you are trying to seduce Gasheads how about real figures from Germany? How much will the cost to the Bristol public be first off would be a good start? How much money would one game generate say v the Bristol balloon festival or the Bristol Harbour Festival?

[Frome Valley]

I think the £100m is a Bristol City Council figure and based on five games generating around £20m each. I've not looked into the economics of it but think that's very achievable.

Then the council will be able to point directly to similar sums from Germany won't they?

[Milo]

Intersting but the club are quoting figures of up to a hundred million pounds. Is this just a notional figure or based on host cities in Germany?

That's the figure placed on it by the city council (EP Article). The edition of the Evening Post referred to a further £100M as the spin-off in tourism in following years but that's not mentioned in the link.

[Milo]

Then the council will be able to point directly to similar sums from Germany won't they?

I'm sure they can. In the article I've linked to they refer to learning lessons from twin City Hannover, a host city three years ago.

[Milo]

If you are trying to seduce Gasheads how about real figures from Germany? How much will the cost to the Bristol public be first off would be a good start? How much money would one game generate say v the Bristol balloon festival or the Bristol Harbour Festival?

The expense will be in making lasting improvements to the infrastructure ("Mr Wray added that the bid would require a major traffic management scheme") and it's clear that the revenue generated will absolutely dwarf the costs.

[Frome Valley]

I'm sure they can. In the article I've linked to they refer to learning lessons from twin City Hannover, a host city three years ago.

So you checked the figures being used before quoting them?

[Frome Valley]

The expense will be in making lasting improvements to the infrastructure ("Mr Wray added that the bid would require a major traffic management scheme") and it's clear that the revenue generated will absolutely dwarf the costs.

Sorry I don't know who Mr Wray is but if its clear the revenue generated will dwarf costs he must know how much it will all cost. Will money [millions?] from the Council also be put towards our stadium for putting on somebody elses party?

[Milo]

Sorry I don't know who Mr Wray is but if its clear the revenue generated will dwarf costs he must know how much it will all cost. Will money [millions?] from the Council also be put towards our stadium for putting on somebody elses party?

Mr Wray is in the EP article I linked to above.

As far as I can tell, the costs are getting the city ready (transport improvements = lasting benefit to the community) and potentially having to build the two ends up so we have a 42,000 capacity. But if we're playing Premier league football in 2012, my guess is that the stadium will move immediately into 42,000 mode. The design of the stadium, so that 10,000 seats can be added cheaply, is such that the revenue from those seats, if filled, would pay for the costs of the extended ends within two seasons. So if we go up and look capable of staying up, it would make financial sense for the Club to go straight to 40K seats whether there's a World Cup coming here or not.

However, if we're in the Championship then the host city will need a 42,000 capacity that Bristol City FC won't need so, in my opinion, the party holder will be obligated. These extra seats can be temporary and the last time I heard figures discussed on the cost of doing this it was less than half of the revenue that the city council is expecting will be generated in just one game of World Cup football.

[Guest DanC]

Last week the sagheads were moaning because they were not involved yet now they have been invited to a meeting they don't want nothing to do with it.

The world cup will touch everyone in Bristol be it a supermarket worker or a takeaway owner. People in Bristol will be talking about it for generations. For us it could mean Bristol youngsters will be encouraged to come and visit the Vale because it is/was a world cup stadium. If the world cup gets kids in Bristol talking about local football then surely that is a good things for both clubs?

Rovers do have part to play in this as they could offer out there stadium for training purposes and if they have finally rebuilt by then they will have hotel facilities they could also offer out as hotel rooms in Bristol will be in huge demand and they are ideally situated for easy access to teh City Centre.

The possibilities for this City is endless and I would urge every sports club or organisation and business in Bristol to get right behind it and play a part. The world cup in our own City should encourage and inspire us all. Us Bristolians are always moaning because our council never seem to do anything so now that they are then we should embrace it and all pull together in the right direction. Forget about local rivalry and think what both clubs (and the Cricket and rugby clubs) can do for Bristol to ensure we get it here and put on a great show that all us Bristolians can be proud of.

The world cup is more than just football. It is about bringing the world to our fair City and selling it to them and encouraging them to come back again. During the tournament I would hope everything about Bristol is showcased to these supporters that will visit. Lets put on exhibitions, Lets put on some beer/cider/music festivals to make there stay as welcoming and fun as possible. How about bringing local communities together by having local world cup street parties. Lets just make sure that once i is all over everyone who lives in Bristol or who visited Bristol had a fantastic time.

I for one hope I wont forget 2018 in a hurry.

[Dollymarie]

Last week the sagheads were moaning because they were not involved yet now they have been invited to a meeting they don't want nothing to do with it.

As far as I am aware the Bristol Rovers Supporters Trust will be at the meeting.

[Rich i e]

Because its the fans organisations that can help galvanize support for this, they can ask members to write letters of support etc.

The club can do the official (boring) sorting out of stuff, but its the fans ultimately who can help bring world cup football to Bristol, a few voices from the board room are a hell of a lot quieter than thousands of fans all pulling for the same thing.

Ummmm, fans in Bristol pulling for the same thing, next thing they'll be asking us to merge, fill the new 40,000 with red and blue and get Premier League football for Brsitol, with a full stadium

Is that the road we are going down? Could be we ain't careful.

If we want to do this World Cup and ground thing, we have to do it ourselves, or indeed the above may happen.

[Milo]

Ummmm, fans in Bristol pulling for the same thing, next thing they'll be asking us to merge, fill the new 40,000 with red and blue and get Premier League football for Brsitol, with a full stadium

Is that the road we are going down? Could be we ain't careful.

If we want to do this World Cup and ground thing, we have to do it ourselves, or indeed the above may happen.

We are doing the ground ourselves, nothing to do with the World Cup. No businessman would invest in their business and then give half of it away to a competitor.

As people who like football and have chosen to support a Bristol team I've always felt we have more in common with gasheads than most other people in Bristol. I think it's logical that we should pull together on an issue that is basically about football and Bristol. When it's about us versus them then all the old rules of rivalry remain in place.

In a bid that includes the need to show strong support from all Bristolians, "doing it ourselves" would be a dangerous strategy.

[Frome Valley]

[myol'man]

It is vital that Rovers (and indeed the rugby lot as well) are present at the meeting because they will have to provide training facilities as well as us if there are to be world cup games here.

World cup teams using gas training facilities?

I can see it now, Kaka, Mesi, Ronaldo, Rooney and Ribery

yomping around some middle of nowhere army training camp

with Trollope leading the way

[Frome Valley]

We are doing the ground ourselves, nothing to do with the World Cup. No businessman would invest in their business and then give half of it away to a competitor.

When the club finally reveal their new designs for the South Stand [bus Stop] and if the changes do not address fans concerns raised; Can the design still be altered significantly or will our new home end become secondary to world cup bid timescales?

[Milo]

So in short Bristol City FC could really be paying millions of pounds to host World Cup Games?

No. I'm saying that Bristol City FC could be paying millions of pounds to boost the revenue prospects of Bristol City FC if we get to the Premier League.

How much will BCFC make from games to recoup this money.

If BCFC have paid for a 42,000 stadium to be built it will because there is an expectation that these costs would be recovered through BCFC activities. Any additional revenue from WC football would be a Brucie Bonus.

If you as representative of the Supporters trust are asking for fans to support the bid shouldn't you have some hard figures?

I've got two meetings in my diary to find out more about the bid. I put myself forward to get involved because it crossed my mind that Bristol may only ever get one crack at this in my lifetime and I didn't want to find myself later on discovering that England is successful in the bid but Bristol's excluded and wondering whether I could have done more to help. My motivation is based on pride in Bristol and conviction that this would be a great boon to both Bristol and also to Bristol City. It's unrealistic to expect me to have spreadsheets full of hard figures but the research I have done convinces me that revenue will significantly outweigh costs to both the Club and the city.

If Bristol City are not paying for additional capacity it's the "Party Holder". So how much do the Council expect to pay for this if it really going to be less than half of the revenue that the city council is expecting will be generated? There must be geniune figures here or is it case of people actually don't know?

I don't know how much the council expects to pay or even if it will need to (see earlier comments about building to 42,000 ahead of any World Cup). However, I know that the council know that they cannot be a host city unless Bristol has a stadium of the right size and they know Bristol City FC will only build to 42,000 if it's in Bristol City FC's interests, based on league position, to do so.

That said, having just had a browse through the Treasury's feasibility study in to hosting the World Cup over my cheese and tomato sandwich, it refers to the responsibility for investment in stadia being established before a bid is made with the suggestion in the Treasury's report that they think the FA and the Clubs as long-term beneficiaries should cough up the lion's share of investment rather than the government. I'll ask more about this at the meetings I go to and I'll let you know what I find out. http://www.hm-treasury.gov.uk/d/world_cup_feasibility.pdf

With all respect you haven't answered questions about costs at all. As a Council tax payer I would ask straight away how much did host Cities on average make during the World Cup in Germany? That would at least provide a realistic idea of what is plausible. If simple questions can't be answered why expect Mr and Mrs. Curmudgeonly of Cotham to support the bid at all?

I'm sure those figures are out there. The link above refers to Germany projecting a handsome operating profit but had not been finalised at the time of the report. But pretty much all major sporting events make a decent operating profit for the event itself, but for host cities the financial gains start in the years before the event and carry on after for some time. Whoever prepares this sort of quantifying analysis (like the figures I quoted above about South Africa with analysis from accountants Grant Thornton) it will also be open to debate because much of the revenue generated is hard to quantify. But just because it's hard to quantify doesn't mean those profits don't exist, nor that the pride and "feel-good factor" should be ignored - why else do countries compete so hard to host them?

[Frome Valley]

[Geoff65]

CS said that the two end roofs are removed for the event and temporary seats put in, the roofs are stored and once the WC is over then BCFC will have to decide whether to just remove the seats and put the roofs back on or replace the temporary sears with permanent ones and then put the roofs back on. The costs of the extra seating for the WC I would imagine come from Council funds - I wouldnt be too happy if BCFC has to pay this.

One other thing is that if the new stadium is chosen then imagine how much extra we are going to get from naming rights - worldwide audience for 5 games has got to bring an additional £1m from Pepsi or Coca Cola or someone?

I am not concerned with the financial aspects in relation to BCFC as I think they will get a huge amount of profits from the WC directly (from gate receipts, merchandise, two hotels to be filled at exorbitant daily costs and the drink revenue from all their bars etc...) or indirectly from extra money from naming rights.

The rate payers have the right to know how much it costs but also the expected revenue too - all of that is not available (probably no one has a good idea as to how to quantify the amounts), but as a non BCC rate payer I don't frankly give a damn about it but am feel fairly comfortable in knowing that the net result for Bristol in terms of the financial side is going to be positive rather than negative and even it was negative it depends on the scale of the liability that would concern me - if it was Montreal scale with their Olympics being paid off over 25 years then sure, something to be worried about if it's like £1m to £5m then I would say BCC would have got value for money with the positive exposure that Bristol will receive.

[Dollymarie]

World cup teams using gas training facilities?

I can see it now, Kaka, Mesi, Ronaldo, Rooney and Ribery

yomping around some middle of nowhere army training camp

with Trollope leading the way

I agree with you, I cant see how their current set up is anywhere near up to scratch, I guess there will have to be some assurances this can be sorted in time.

[Milo]

I appreciate your answer took some time but surely you and others need to show fans and Council tax payers exactly why the World cup will be so beneficial to all. At this point you can't even provide a cost to BCFC or the City of Bristol for the additional 12000 seats to bring the stadium up to the require capacity let alone who picks up all the other bills and the cost will be many additional millions won't it? Make bold statements by all means but you are not exactly convincing if you don't demonstrate 12000 seats = £'s [??] will be paid for by? I can see you are going to address those points but to my mind the club and council should be clearly explaining them already.

I can see that there will be plenty of council tax payers who will want to understand the cost and benefits in more detail. In a meeting I've had I have been quoted a figure for the cost of erecting the two end stands on a permanent basis but I can't be sure I have the most up-to-date figure and I don't feel comfortable announcing figures given in a private meeting. Hopefully there will a Q&A with Steve Lansdown at the Open Day in a few weeks' time and someone can ask him this point directly.

How do you put a price on the revenue generated by extra tourists who come to Bristol before the event because they've read about the city as a WC venue, or the media that come over to report and research beforehand, or on the extra productivity generated through happy Bristolians, or on the follow on effect of increased money supply through those people with newly created jobs spending it in other parts of the Bristol economy and of those recipients spending it elsewhere? The list would be a long one and, I imagine, an expensive one to calculate. If on the high balance of probability this will be profitable, to what extent should a cost benefit analysis be carried out? I agree there has to be an anlysis undertaken and I'd like to think the council have done this to some extent. Whether they would want to publish figures which must by their nature be so open to subjective opinion, and thereby providing rope to those who want a hanging is another question...

When the club finally reveal their new designs for the South Stand [bus Stop] and if the changes do not address fans concerns raised; Can the design still be altered significantly or will our new home end become secondary to world cup bid timescales?

Milo the answer is the World Cup bid will ride roughshod over fans concerns and the home end will be sacrificed isn't it?

Your first question pre-supposes that the design is such because of the World Cup bid and I don't believe that the World Cup bid plays any part in the general design of the home ends. I'm sure it's relevant in terms of checking that the technical requirements for a World Cup stadium are included, but I don't believe it influences the reason behind the "bus stop" design.

The conversations I have had about the reason for the "bus stops" are based on Reading's experience of building a stadium that was the right size for lower division football but was selling out in the Premier league. When they looked into increasing capacity they discovered the costs were extremely high. I can't find anything straight away about these costs but the following article states that Reading are looking to increase capacity to 38,000 adding 10,500 seats which will take three years to complete. This is clearly going to be more expensive than it would be for BCFC under the proposed design (http://www.footballgroundguide.com/reading...%20Developments).

I genuinely believe that it's the wrong conculsion to reach to say the flexible design is due to the desire to host a World Cup. That just seems illogical to me - it's only two weeks of football but we're planning for the next 50 years of Bristol City. What does seem logical is to learn from a competitor's mistake who arrived at a point where 40,000 seats were needed and wished they acted differently at the design stage.

I imagine the city's final bid will include a contractual commitment to have a 42,000 stadium that meets the WC's stadium technical criteria, the design of which is unlikely to be relevant. So if BCFC decide in January to build a 15,000 mega-kop for a home end with a teensie 5,000 shallow away end and re-submit a planning permission application, as long as it's still coming in overall at 42,000 I'm sure there would be no problem. But making a change now would put back the planning application which is already tight for a 2012 deadline so however fans perceive the re-designed home end, it will take some doing to convince SL that a further change is a good idea.

[Frome Valley]

I can see that there will be plenty of council tax payers who will want to understand the cost and benefits in more detail. In a meeting I've had I have been quoted a figure for the cost of erecting the two end stands on a permanent basis but I can't be sure I have the most up-to-date figure and I don't feel comfortable announcing figures given in a private meeting. Hopefully there will a Q&A with Steve Lansdown at the Open Day in a few weeks' time and someone can ask him this point directly.

How do you put a price on the revenue generated by extra tourists who come to Bristol before the event because they've read about the city as a WC venue, or the media that come over to report and research beforehand, or on the extra productivity generated through happy Bristolians, or on the follow on effect of increased money supply through those people with newly created jobs spending it in other parts of the Bristol economy and of those recipients spending it elsewhere? The list would be a long one and, I imagine, an expensive one to calculate. If on the high balance of probability this will be profitable, to what extent should a cost benefit analysis be carried out? I agree there has to be an anlysis undertaken and I'd like to think the council have done this to some extent. Whether they would want to publish figures which must by their nature be so open to subjective opinion, and thereby providing rope to those who want a hanging is another question...

Your first question pre-supposes that the design is such because of the World Cup bid and I don't believe that the World Cup bid plays any part in the general design of the home ends. I'm sure it's relevant in terms of checking that the technical requirements for a World Cup stadium are included, but I don't believe it influences the reason behind the "bus stop" design.

The conversations I have had about the reason for the "bus stops" are based on Reading's experience of building a stadium that was the right size for lower division football but was selling out in the Premier league. When they looked into increasing capacity they discovered the costs were extremely high. I can't find anything straight away about these costs but the following article states that Reading are looking to increase capacity to 38,000 adding 10,500 seats which will take three years to complete. This is clearly going to be more expensive than it would be for BCFC under the proposed design (http://www.footballgroundguide.com/reading...%20Developments).

I genuinely believe that it's the wrong conculsion to reach to say the flexible design is due to the desire to host a World Cup. That just seems illogical to me - it's only two weeks of football but we're planning for the next 50 years of Bristol City. What does seem logical is to learn from a competitor's mistake who arrived at a point where 40,000 seats were needed and wished they acted differently at the design stage.

I imagine the city's final bid will include a contractual commitment to have a 42,000 stadium that meets the WC's stadium technical criteria, the design of which is unlikely to be relevant. So if BCFC decide in January to build a 15,000 mega-kop for a home end with a teensie 5,000 shallow away end and re-submit a planning permission application, as long as it's still coming in overall at 42,000 I'm sure there would be no problem. But making a change now would put back the planning application which is already tight for a 2012 deadline so however fans perceive the re-designed home end, it will take some doing to convince SL that a further change is a good idea.

I am sure Bristolians are interested in how millions of their money will be spent and would like to see examples of the benefits v costs in financial terms from the World Cup in Germany. The costs for the Harbourside festival are revealed.

Sorry you again failed to answer the question Milo. If fans feel the redsigned South Stand is still rubbish and fans once again disagree with BCFC can it be changed. Simple Yes or No? Not will it but can it excluding the World Cup bid because ultimately this ground is meant to be for who in 2012?

[Flaxbourton Red]

has the supporters trust surveyed it's membership before wholeheartedly getting behind this world cup bid?

I can't remember being asked if I wanted a gound for bristol city, or the world cup, or a combination of the two.

The world cup clearly has benefits for the city of bristol, but i have to admit I'm more selfish and am only interested in Bristol City F.C. and would like a supporters trust to remain independent of the club and provide a shining torch onto these world cup plans so as to make them more transparent and hold the club more accountable to its fans.

[Milo]

I am sure Bristolians are interested in how millions of their money will be spent and would like to see examples of the benefits v costs in financial terms from the World Cup in Germany. The costs for the Harbourside festival are revealed.

Sorry you again failed to answer the question Milo. If fans feel the redsigned South Stand is still rubbish and once again disagree with BCFC can it be changed. Simple Yes or No? Not will it but can it excluding the World Cup bid because ultimately this ground is meant to be for who in 2012?

I'm doing my best FV but I'm not in a position to give you a Yes or No answer. All I can give you is my personal opinion; if you want Yes or No answers you'll have to ask Steve Lansdown.

[Frome Valley]

I'm doing my best FV but I'm not in a position to give you a Yes or No answer. All I can give you is my personal opinion; if you want Yes or No answers you'll have to ask Steve Lansdown.

That actually is an answer.

Its yes it can but won't as the World cup bid comes first in the eyes of the club even if its evident a huge section of Citys support don't think the stand goes beyond the mundane.

[Milo]

I'd be bitterly disappointed if the Supporters Trust weren't 100% in tandem with City in being part of Bristols bid as a host city and using the new stadium to host games.

As it stands, I'm thankful that they are spending the time and effort trying to make Bristol's bid successful.

Thanks for the support cynic.

I know there's a danger my comments will be read as "official" Trust views despite the comments in my signature, and that's part of the reason why I rarely post on otib anymore. My comments in this thread are my personal views but I'd be really surprised if the majority of City fans were against the idea of the World Cup in Bristol. I know I've gone on a bit in this thread and as a result not all of my words or links will have been read, but I've tried hard to explain why I think there's a misconception about how the World Cup influences our ground design.

To pick up on Flaxy's comments I think it's possibly a good idea to canvass people's opinions about the World Cup. I think that it makes sense to have the debate before asking for a vote. I'd also caution that a big part of what will influence the outcome of the host cities is the views of the people and that an underwhelming vote such as "57% of Bristol City fans think the World Cup in Bristol is a good idea" could be damaging to the city's prospects of landing it even though it shows a majorty back it. The survey the FA carried out in 2006 showed 80% of English people supported the bid

If I hear arguments against the idea I'll listen and if the maths don't stack up for Bristol City I'll scream that from the roof tops. But actually I'm not sure I've so far heard too many convincing arguments against the idea and I fear that the caution from some quarters is born from the the belief it's responsible for the "bus shelter". All I can do is say it as I see it from my reasonably informed position and as mentioned above, I simply don't believe that's the case.

There's a Trust meeting this Thursday at Bar BS3 from 7.30 and it would be good to have people come along to chat about this.

[cider head]

[Frome Valley]

will the ST be putting out a review of the changes or doing another survey?

I would be amazed if the Supporters trust let the changes pass by without public comment as the new design could show fans concerns about the ends design and the World cup are without basis.

[bringbacktherobin]

I agree with you, I cant see how their current set up is anywhere near up to scratch, I guess there will have to be some assurances this can be sorted in time.

Who will be paying for their training facilities to be up to scratch? Us, rovers? The council?

Rovers training facilitates are now the sole use of one pitch down at the imperial ground in hengrove/knowle. How would that be adaquate for world cup players to train there.