Super Performance

[mindjuicer]

The way I would put it, when LJ didn't play last season, we were just 11 players - a bit like international teams who aren't used to playing alongside each other. Of course, the lack of cohesion was mainly in the middle but that's what I saw.

If Huntley or the others can provide that cohesion, awesome.

Picking up the ball from defence is just something LJ does because he's a very smart player and sees what's needed.

[21. Marcham]

The way I would put it, when LJ didn't play last season, we were just 11 players - a bit like international teams who aren't used to playing alongside each other. Of course, the lack of cohesion was mainly in the middle but that's what I saw.

If Huntley or the others can provide that cohesion, awesome.

Picking up the ball from defence is just something LJ does because he's a very smart player and sees what's needed.

Sorry? We have him playing now!? Maybe it's because we (so say) compares ourselves to Man United.

[edson]

I completely agree with your summary and thats why I was delighted to see a classy player like Hartley join the squad. His signing was a clear indicator that Gary Johnson had finally admitted that last years midfield was simply not strong enough. Just think back to the Brum game at AG last year to remember how much of a difference two good midfielders make. McFadden and Carslake were so much better than anything that City had on display and I left the stadium after that game thinking how lightwieght City had looked. It was only the fact that City wouldn't be up against midfields like that every week that cheered me up a little.

I still would like to see another midfielder sign for City before the start of the season but I can't see it happening.

Elliot and Hartley must be first choices and with a four man midfield Mcindoe and maybe Haynes/Williams or Skuse taking the other spots. I can only see LJ starting if City go 5 across the middle.

That surely suggests that players of Hartley, McFadden and Carslake's quality are very thin on the ground in the Championship, doesn't it?

I think we've done very well to attract Hartley here.

[chinapig]

I completely agree with your summary and thats why I was delighted to see a classy player like Hartley join the squad. His signing was a clear indicator that Gary Johnson had finally admitted that last years midfield was simply not strong enough. Just think back to the Brum game at AG last year to remember how much of a difference two good midfielders make. McFadden and Carslake were so much better than anything that City had on display and I left the stadium after that game thinking how lightwieght City had looked. It was only the fact that City wouldn't be up against midfields like that every week that cheered me up a little.

I still would like to see another midfielder sign for City before the start of the season but I can't see it happening.

Elliot and Hartley must be first choices and with a four man midfield Mcindoe and maybe Haynes/Williams or Skuse taking the other spots. I can only see LJ starting if City go 5 across the middle.

Given their experience and the money they are on I should hope McFadden and Carsley were a damn sight better than our players. Bit of an unfair comparison I would think. I can't see Gary suddenly converting Haynes to a midfield player and he has already said he wants to use him as a striker. With Elliot, Hartley, Williams, Skuse and Johnson and not forgetting Artus all available for central midfield I wouldn't have thought yet another was a priority unless the mythical tackling, heading, box-to box, 50 yard passing 10 goal a season player becomes available.

[red man dan]

The way I would put it, when LJ didn't play last season, we were just 11 players - a bit like international teams who aren't used to playing alongside each other. Of course, the lack of cohesion was mainly in the middle but that's what I saw.

If Huntley or the others can provide that cohesion, awesome.

Picking up the ball from defence is just something LJ does because he's a very smart player and sees what's needed.

Well put, simple, but thats the way I saw it last year and the way it was at Cheltenham last week untill the second half when LJ and PH came on. LJ is not a better MF than Elliot but was more condusive to a better team performance during last season IMO. His 'game' was productive for other players as his positioning and tactical awareness allowed others to make a bigger impact on the game as it lessened other players inabilities. If Hartley can, which i sincerely hope he will, play that role then I would be delighted to see Elliot be allowed to play his game alongside him.

[Robbored]

Given their experience and the money they are on I should hope McFadden and Carsley were a damn sight better than our players. Bit of an unfair comparison I would think. I can't see Gary suddenly converting Haynes to a midfield player and he has already said he wants to use him as a striker. With Elliot, Hartley, Williams, Skuse and Johnson and not forgetting Artus all available for central midfield I wouldn't have thought yet another was a priority unless the mythical tackling, heading, box-to box, 50 yard passing 10 goal a season player becomes available.

I wasn't making a comparison - just pointing what a difference two quality midfielders make. The gulf between the midfields on show that night was massive.

As Hartley is the only new midfield player what happens if he gets injured or suspended? City would be left with the same ineffective midfield as last season. Thats why I'd like to see another midfielder joining the squad.

[red man dan]

I wasn't making a comparison - just pointing what a difference two quality midfielders make. The gulf between the midfields on show that night was massive.

As Hartley is the only new midfield player what happens if he gets injured or suspended? City would be left with the same ineffective midfield as last season. Thats why I'd like to see another midfielder joining the squad.

I'd disagree with that, if hartley was injured we would have the same players as last year left for selection yes...BUT...we have a FIT again Elliot, a 'GJ fit' Gavin Williams and an ever improving Skuse and Artus to add to LJ. They may be the same players, but they have more ability to offer us more this season IMO.

[Robbored]

...BUT...we have a FIT again Elliot, a 'GJ fit' Gavin Williams and an ever improving Skuse and Artus to add to LJ. They may be the same players, but they have more ability to offer us more this season IMO.

Essentially the same players. Why would they be better this season than last? More experience for sure but more ability?

Hartley will influence them of course. They will no doubt benefit from his experience and leadership which would ultimately help them improve as players but that will take quite a number of games and if Hartley gets injured or suspended..........

[edson]

Essentially the same players. Why would they be better this season than last? More experience for sure but more ability?

Hartley will influence them of course. They will no doubt benefit from his experience and leadership which would ultimately help them improve as players but that will take quite a number of games and if Hartley gets injured or suspended..........

You don't think Skuse and Elliott have the scope to improve?

At Skuse's age, Hartley was playing in the Scottish First Division with Hibs.

[Robbored]

You don't think Skuse and Elliott have the scope to improve?

At Skuse's age, Hartley was playing in the Scottish First Division with Hibs.

Experience improves players most of the time. That extra bit of nouse/know how can make a big difference. That said players imo have a level of ability that they reach at a relatively young age. Akinde for example has good core skills but lacks that nouse/know how through his current lack of experience. Another example is McCombe. Dominant in the air and a solid enough Div 1 defender but seriously lacking ability against quick footed strikers despite his experience. The same could be said about Trundle. Good player in Div 1 but seriously found out in the CCC. He reached the max of his ability at Swansea and couldn't hack it higher up.

Owen played for England 17 and Rooney at 18. Players with masses of natural ability show it at an early age. Experience makes them better. Rooney is nowhere near as hot headed as he was for example.

[edson]

Experience improves players most of the time. That extra bit of nouse/know how can make a big difference. That said players imo have a level of ability that they reach at a relatively young age. Akinde for example has good core skills but lacks that nouse/know how through his current lack of experience. Another example is McCombe. Dominant in the air and a solid enough Div 1 defender but seriously lacking ability against quick footed strikers despite his experience. The same could be said about Trundle. Good player in Div 1 but seriously found out in the CCC. He reached the max of his ability at Swansea and couldn't hack it higher up.

Owen played for England 17 and Rooney at 18. Players with masses of natural ability show it at an early age. Experience makes them better. Rooney is nowhere near as hot headed as he was for example.

I see the point you're making, but I don't agree with it.

At Cole Skuse's age, Paul Hartley was playing in the Scottish First Division. At the age of 30, he was playing in the Champions' League. Surely that progression isn't based in him having exactly the same level of ability throughout that time, just with a few years' experience added.

[Robbored]

At Cole Skuse's age, Paul Hartley was playing in the Scottish First Division. At the age of 30, he was playing in the Champions' League. Surely that progression isn't based in him having exactly the same level of ability throughout that time, just with a few years' experience added.

I would say that Hartley learnt his trade at St Johnson, Hibs and Hearts, plus a season at Millwall and then with several years under his belt moved to Celtic as the finished article.

His core skills probably haven't changed since he was a rookie, but all the experience has taught him to utilise them better.

[edson]

I would say that Hartley learnt his trade at St Johnson, Hibs and Hearts, plus a season at Millwall and then with several years under his belt moved to Celtic as the finished article.

His core skills probably haven't changed since he was a rookie, but all the experience has taught him to utilise them better.

So you think training with top coaches only serves to maintain a player's ability, not improve it?

I can't agree with that.

[Robbored]

So you think training with top coaches only serves to maintain a player's ability, not improve it?

I can't agree with that.

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

[edson]

Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this one.

We will.

I honestly don't see how you can believe that a player can't improve his ability to cross a ball, hit a freekick, weight a pass, hit a shot or time a tackle once he gets to the age of 18.

[red man dan]

We will.

I honestly don't see how you can believe that a player can't improve his ability to cross a ball, hit a freekick, weight a pass, hit a shot or time a tackle once he gets to the age of 18.

Neither can I, for one at 18,19,20,21 etc you are still growing and getting stronger, therefore surely a players physical ability must increase as they get older? This certainly has an impact on their ability. To say it is only experience that improves people is madness. Natrual ability goes along way but is far from the only factor and I doubt you will find many coaches that believe you can not improve a plyaers technical ability over time. Balls skills and mastery of the ball is improving all the time and thus your technical ability increases alot from the age of 18 to 30 odd. The reason english players in general are not as good technically as players in europe is because we have never concentrated as much on this side of the game as say, the Dutch or Spanish have. Our players are natrually as giftet, but without the focus on technique their ability did not increase as much as it could, but players on the continent did concentrate and therefore increased their abilities in that area. That is just one example, and it rings true in other departments, heading, tackling, striking the ball correctly, all of these skills are devoloped with consistent focused practice, not through just having the 'natrual' ability in the first place.

[Robbored]

I honestly don't see how you can believe that a player can't improve his ability to cross a ball, hit a freekick, weight a pass, hit a shot or time a tackle once he gets to the age of 18.

You are talking about core skills that all pro footballers should have. Crossing for example is a gift that some players just don't have. Sproule is hopeless because he tries to cross the ball when running at pace. With experience he should learn not to do that. Coaches can advise of course but some players just can't seem to grasp things.

Take McAllister. As a pro footballer he has all the core skills but yet game after game he wellies the ball up the pitch to little effect. Surely he can see that its better to keep the ball and no doubt he's been told to keep it simple but it has no effect on him.

Beckham became excellent at free-kicks because of a basic natural ability. Practice made him even better but without that natural ability he would be about as effective as McIndoe and Lee Johnson.

Do you think that pro snooker players don't have a natural talent to judge the pace of a shot? Its not something that can be taught. Same with pass in football.

Paul Scholes has never been able to tackle well and yet he's been a top player for over a decade. No doubt Scholes has worked with the coaches at Man Utd and England but with little benefit.Tackling is one element of the game where Scholes has little natural ability. He makes up for it by having stacks of ability in other area's.

Coaches are in a position to delevop and enhance existing core skills of young players. Thats the way its done in Holland whose style of football is admired the world over. Ajax showed us just how much in the dark ages the English game is.

[edson]

You are talking about core skills that all pro footballers should have. Crossing for example is a gift that some players just don't have. Sproule is hopeless because he tries to cross the ball when running at pace. With experience he should learn not to do that. Coaches can advise of course but some players just can't seem to grasp things.

Take McAllister. As a pro footballer he has all the core skills but yet game after game he wellies the ball up the pitch to little effect. Surely he can see that its better to keep the ball and no doubt he's been told to keep it simple but it has no effect on him.

Beckham became excellent at free-kicks because of a basic natural ability. Practice made him even better but without that natural ability he would be about as effective as McIndoe and Lee Johnson.

Do you think that pro snooker players don't have a natural talent to judge the pace of a shot? Its not something that can be taught. Same with pass in football.

Paul Scholes has never been able to tackle well and yet he's been a top player for over a decade. No doubt Scholes has worked with the coaches at Man Utd and England but with little benefit.Tackling is one element of the game where Scholes has little natural ability. He makes up for it by having stacks of ability in other area's.

Coaches are in a position to delevop and enhance existing core skills of young players. Thats the way its done in Holland whose style of football is admired the world over. Ajax showed us just how much in the dark ages the English game is.

You appear to be arguing with your own initial point that players can't improve their ability beyond the age of 18.

Beckham's freekicks improved because he practiced under the supervision of coaches. Therefore his ability to take a good freekick improved well beyond the age of 18.

Of course some people have a natural ability to play certain sports. But that can be enhanced and improved through training and coaching throughout a player's career, not solely through playing matches.

Sorry, but the point you made is nonsense. Players can improve through good training, good coaching and experience throughout their careers, before age catches up on them.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

You appear to be arguing with your own initial point that players can't improve their ability beyond the age of 18.

Beckham's freekicks improved because he practiced under the supervision of coaches. Therefore his ability to take a good freekick improved well beyond the age of 18.

Of course some people have a natural ability to play certain sports. But that can be enhanced and improved through training and coaching throughout a player's career, not solely through playing matches.

Sorry, but the point you made is nonsense. Players can improve through good training, good coaching and experience throughout their careers, before age catches up on them.

I don't think you will find any proof that the notion of 'natural ability' exists. While small children will show an inclination for different types of activity, most skills are acquired through practice and repetition. There may be a few infant prodigies that suggest that skills are 'natural' but generally it is down to physical make-up and practice. There are many people who have developed new skills at a mature age, and several examples of sportspeople who took up a particular game at a very late stage and did very well at it. Skill can be acquired through hard work and dedication.

[Rednready]

Let us consider City player, Luke Wilkshire.

Gus Hiddink made Luke a world class right wing back. With City he was a 10 goal a season midfielder, mainly from the left flank. Its all about managers, coaches and opinions.

Hiddink has proved his ability at world class level, so has Wilkshire.

Imo City can improve their league status with the players now under contract. Its simply a matter of selection.

[edson]

I don't think you will find any proof that the notion of 'natural ability' exists. While small children will show an inclination for different types of activity, most skills are acquired through practice and repetition. There may be a few infant prodigies that suggest that skills are 'natural' but generally it is down to physical make-up and practice. There are many people who have developed new skills at a mature age, and several examples of sportspeople who took up a particular game at a very late stage and did very well at it. Skill can be acquired through hard work and dedication.

Interesting point, but not one I necessarily agree with.

The issue of natural ability not existing suggests I could be as good as Lionel Messi if I practiced enough. I don't think that's the case, although I'm happy to believe otherwise.

That said, there's no substitute for hard work, but I do feel some people have an innate ability to perform well at sport that others don't. I do appreciate that it's a topic that has been/is being researched a great deal though, with researchers divided in their conclusions.

[Nibor]

You need natural ability and a lot of hard work in training as well.

Natural ability is what your brain and body are capable of as a maximum - your pre-disposition to learning a skill. That does definitely exist, everyone has limits no matter how hard they train and those limits are different.

Training helps your body and mind learn to be more accurate and to respond more quickly, habits form through repetition, the mind is able to perform complex tasks without using as much conscious effort.

Then there's the conscious part of training, the decision making, tactics and thinking.

All of that plays it's part in making players better, but without enough natural ability you can train as hard as you like and you will not as good as other players.

[Robbored]

Why do some players spend all their careers in the lower leagues?

Because they lack the natural ability to play higher up.

It makes no difference how much quality coaching they get. If they don't have what it takes they don't make it.

Beckham must have had the natural talent to take free kicks as a lad. He has honed his skill with hours of practice but I doubt much coaching. If coaching makes that much difference why can't all players take fantastic free kicks?

Coaching is usefull at an early age when players are able to adapt and hone thier pre existing skills. Take Sproule. Imo he'll never be able to cross the ball consistantly for as long as he plays. He just hasn't got that particular skill in his locker and coaching will make no difference at all. He must have had coaching but still he can't produce consistantly.

You can't coach goalscoring. Some players are naturals and instinctively know where to be and what to do. Maynard is like that. With experience he'll get better and better. You can coach Maynard to put in more effort for the team but does that make him a better goalscorer? I think not.

[edson]

Why do some players spend all their careers in the lower leagues?

Because they lack the natural ability to play higher up.

It makes no difference how much quality coaching they get. If they don't have what it takes they don't make it.

Beckham must have had the natural talent to take free kicks as a lad. He has honed his skill with hours of practice but I doubt much coaching. If coaching makes that much difference why can't all players take fantastic free kicks?

Coaching is usefull at an early age when players are able to adapt and hone thier pre existing skills. Take Sproule. Imo he'll never be able to cross the ball consistantly for as long as he plays. He just hasn't got that particular skill in his locker and coaching will make no difference at all. He must have had coaching but still he can't produce consistantly.

You can't coach goalscoring. Some players are naturals and instinctively know where to be and what to do. Maynard is like that. With experience he'll get better and better. You can coach Maynard to put in more effort for the team but does that make him a better goalscorer? I think not.

I'm not disputing some players have more natural ability than others. I make that point above.

What I am disputing is, that no player has the ability to improve his skills beyond the age of 18.

You don't think Maynard does shooting practice in training, and you don't think he's coached in it? If so, you're wrong.

[Barrs Court Red]

Matt Hill.

[easton boy]

Someone phone SL, Alex Ferguson, Jose Mourinho - coaches are a waste of money as they don't improve the talent already inherent within a player

[Rednready]

Paul Scholes cant tackle well......A joke right ?

He gets yellow and red cards each and every season for vigorous tackles. I would sign him tomorrow in front of any of our wannabe midfielders outside of Hartley.

Add to that, Paulie has scored close to 1 goal in four starts from the midfield in the Premier League. Thats a class act IMO.

[Bris Red]

Paul Scholes cant tackle well......A joke right ?

He gets yellow and red cards each and every season for vigorous tackles. I would sign him tomorrow in front of any of our wannabe midfielders outside of Hartley.

Add to that, Paulie has scored close to 1 goal in four starts from the midfield in the Premier League. Thats a class act IMO.

That pretty much proves the point Scholes cant tackle well. The majority of his tackles are mis timed and dangerous and he rarerly wins the ball cleanly. Just beacuse he goes in hard and gets yellow and red cards dsont mean he can tackle well, quite the opposite IMO.

[Rednready]

That pretty much proves the point Scholes cant tackle well. The majority of his tackles are mis timed and dangerous and he rarerly wins the ball cleanly. Just beacuse he goes in hard and gets yellow and red cards dsont mean he can tackle well, quite the opposite IMO.

Paul is a vigorous attacking midfielder. Consider this .

For Manchester United, appearances 604

Manchester United goals, 142.

We dont have a midfielder at any level with that level of achievement.

[Nibor]

Paul is a vigorous attacking midfielder. Consider this .

For Manchester United, appearances 604

Manchester United goals, 142.

We dont have a midfielder at any level with that level of achievement.

Yes but it's irrelevant to the point that was being made - for all his achievements and skills in other areas, he is shocking at tackling no matter how much training and coaching he's had in it.