After Time For Reflection...

[CliftonCliff]

When I started posting here a couple of months back, I made up a few rules for myself, based on some of the less admirable comments and exchanges I'd read over the years before becoming a member myself. These included things like: don't get involved in silly slanging matches; never resort to personal jibes, whether about BCFC personnel or another forum member; don't fire off posts when angry or wound up - wait until you've calmed down and had time to reflect. And so on...

Having arrived home on Wednesday evening in a state of near-disbelief, I resolved to leave it at least a day before writing anything at all. Since than, I've read a good deal of what others have had to say, and also had a chance to digest the response from GJ and Millen. Nearly every thought I've had has been expressed by someone else already, but only a few have tried to integrate the various themes that have emerged and paint the bigger picture. So, my overall reactions - or some of them, at least - for what they're worth:

1. The performance was as bad as anything I've seen for a very long time. Quite astonishingly awful.

2. There are a series of separate, but related, issues that emerge from any attempt to understand why this happened. Some of these follow.

3. Tactics. We are trying a new formation this season. It's one that most older forum members have seen tried before by many managers, and subsequently abandoned. I said early on that I think this experiment will probably suffer the same fate and I suspect that the Carlisle debacle will prove to be another nail in the coffin.

4. Consistency. When an initial 3-5-2 has run into trouble in games, there has been a tendency to change shape at half time, or later. I would suggest this has resulted in confusion amongst the players and, if anything, made matters worse. Footballers of the highest calibre can do this: the top four or five in the Prem do it all the time to suit circumstances. It's impressive to see this degree of adaptability at Old Trafford, the Emirates, etc - but this is Ashton Gate and the Championship. With the greatest respect to our players - and they are good players - I don't believe at our level that you can do this successfully. More than that, GJ has tried to introduce a new way of playing whilst simultaneously integrating six or seven new signings into the squad. Too much change all at once may explain what was a shambolic display at Cardiff and a disaster on Wednesday. It's enough that you may have one player (say, Clarkson, for example) trying to adapt to a - for him - unfamiliar role with new team-mates: we have an entire team struggling to cope with change on grand scale.

5. Morale. The attitude on Wednesday was quite shocking. I suggest this may be directly related to 4 above. It wasn't just the fact that it was a Carling cup game against opposition from a lower division. (The match was, in fact, potentially important, in view of the possibility of a tie against Premier opposition in the next round, with all that implies in terms of revenue and possible TV exposure). All first team games should obviously be approached in a thoroughly professional manner. This one most definitely wasn't, which is why a lot of fans were so peed off.

6. In my experience, performances this dreadful can only happen when there is something wrong in the dressing room. This was a bunch of players whose hearts weren't in it. This is deeply worrying at this early stage in the season (or any time, for that matter). It has happened before under GJ. It has also been resolved in the past, and may again be only a temporary falling-out, but those were not happy guys out there. Not an excuse, of course. They are professionals and should get on with it, as I've said, but my guess is they are unclear about their roles in the side, fed up with and confused by changes in formation and tactics, and this is affecting their relationship with the manger, their confidence, morale and performance levels.

No need to panic, but there are certainly grounds for serious concern, and GJ will need to get a grip on the situation, pronto, or results could go into one of those scary nose-dives that we seem to experience at some stage in nearly every season. Up to now, he has, to be fair, always turned it around. The fear, of course, is that one day he'll find he can't. My guess is that, despite a terrific first 45 minutes against QPR that showed we can produce great one-touch football played at pace when deploying a 3-4-1-2 (or 3-5-2 or however you want to designate it), he will sooner or later have to revert to a more orthodox style with which the players are familiar, comfortable and able to produce a greater consistency of performance.

Having thus stuck my head on the chopping block, I shall now wait for the axe to fall. Over to you, gentlemen.

[westy]

just as i was trying to forget the result and concentrate on middlesborough!!

joking aside i agree and have said before 4-3-3 and or playig with wingbacks is just not us, alright for chelski but lets get back to 4-4-2 and revert to 4-5-1 for the toughest away matches, simples - why try and reivent the wheel?

maybe you are right about dressing room and if so my guess is the LJ situation, although not the biggest fan or hater just think the whole situation is an uneccessary one to be in. I'm sure GJ thinks he is being fair but the sinical side of me just wonders why:

Akinde comes on against palace and does a great job (in fact absolute first class performance considering he only had 20 mins or so) and then next match against QPR Velicka gets the nod, ok lets forgive GJ for wanting to get his debut out of the way but then within 2-3 mins the injury occurs and within that time GJ has decided the big man idea is wrong and puts LJ on - what must akinde and others be thinking?

Ok LJ plays quite well and puts in a decent pass which GJ wants to hit home with his comments and because of this pass gets to lay further claim to a 1st team starting place in midweek and quite simply GJ always goes on about being fair to the squad people who perform well and IMO akinde deserved to start against QPR or at least be 1st sub to illustrate to the squad and youngster if you take your chance he'll back ya and what he has actually said now is he'll back you after LJ has had a chance!

+ thought I would add that GJ always goes on about psychology and getting into the players heads, surely the master must realise the potential conflict!!

[Coach]

I think, on reflection, that the poor performance stemmed from the midfield.

In my eyes, Gavin Williams didn't know what the hell he was doing or where he should be. When he turned and ran with the ball he looked good, positional and passing wise he was awful. Marvin Elliott had his least combative game I think I've ever seen him have outside friendlies. Standing off opponents the whole night and only getting stuck in when he'd lost the ball. Which with his control is not exactly unheard of. One could even say that a move is on his mind? And with just two other midfielders, both not performing, Lee Johnson just doesn't have the ability. He has stamina, he will always be available, but he cannot win a ball and rarely looks to play a killer - or even attacking - pass. Give him a midfield of five where short one-twos and triangles look pretty and he is fine.

Couple this with poor distribution from defence - bar Carey I'd say - and what chance did we have of scoring? I thought Akinde showed some nice touches and first-time layoffs but there was nothing for him and Haynes to feed on. I'm willing to give Haynes plenty more time although, I do fear, he couldn't hit a barn door with a banjo.

I know we have defensive problems but I'd much rather have seen Skuse in midfield the other night. At least he can slide intelligent balls between defenders for strikers to run onto. And he'll always get stuck in. Qualities that our three lacked terribly on Weds.

At the moment I'd have to say I'd be happy to sell Elliott - although only for big bucks obviously - and see the likes of Artus given a chance in front of Lee in these games. I'm not sure where on the pitch Williams fits in now.

[terjon]

When I started posting here a couple of months back, I made up a few rules for myself, based on some of the less admirable comments and exchanges I'd read over the years before becoming a member myself. These included things like: don't get involved in silly slanging matches; never resort to personal jibes, whether about BCFC personnel or another forum member; don't fire off posts when angry or wound up - wait until you've calmed down and had time to reflect. And so on...

Having arrived home on Wednesday evening in a state of near-disbelief, I resolved to leave it at least a day before writing anything at all. Since than, I've read a good deal of what others have had to say, and also had a chance to digest the response from GJ and Millen. Nearly every thought I've had has been expressed by someone else already, but only a few have tried to integrate the various themes that have emerged and paint the bigger picture. So, my overall reactions - or some of them, at least - for what they're worth:

1. The performance was as bad as anything I've seen for a very long time. Quite astonishingly awful.

2. There are a series of separate, but related, issues that emerge from any attempt to understand why this happened. Some of these follow.

3. Tactics. We are trying a new formation this season. It's one that most older forum members have seen tried before by many managers, and subsequently abandoned. I said early on that I think this experiment will probably suffer the same fate and I suspect that the Carlisle debacle will prove to be another nail in the coffin.

4. Consistency. When an initial 3-5-2 has run into trouble in games, there has been a tendency to change shape at half time, or later. I would suggest this has resulted in confusion amongst the players and, if anything, made matters worse. Footballers of the highest calibre can do this: the top four or five in the Prem do it all the time to suit circumstances. It's impressive to see this degree of adaptability at Old Trafford, the Emirates, etc - but this is Ashton Gate and the Championship. With the greatest respect to our players - and they are good players - I don't believe at our level that you can do this successfully. More than that, GJ has tried to introduce a new way of playing whilst simultaneously integrating six or seven new signings into the squad. Too much change all at once may explain what was a shambolic display at Cardiff and a disaster on Wednesday. It's enough that you may have one player (say, Clarkson, for example) trying to adapt to a - for him - unfamiliar role with new team-mates: we have an entire team struggling to cope with change on grand scale.

5. Morale. The attitude on Wednesday was quite shocking. I suggest this may be directly related to 4 above. It wasn't just the fact that it was a Carling cup game against opposition from a lower division. (The match was, in fact, potentially important, in view of the possibility of a tie against Premier opposition in the next round, with all that implies in terms of revenue and possible TV exposure). All first team games should obviously be approached in a thoroughly professional manner. This one most definitely wasn't, which is why a lot of fans were so peed off.

6. In my experience, performances this dreadful can only happen when there is something wrong in the dressing room. This was a bunch of players whose hearts weren't in it. This is deeply worrying at this early stage in the season (or any time, for that matter). It has happened before under GJ. It has also been resolved in the past, and may again be only a temporary falling-out, but those were not happy guys out there. Not an excuse, of course. They are professionals and should get on with it, as I've said, but my guess is they are unclear about their roles in the side, fed up with and confused by changes in formation and tactics, and this is affecting their relationship with the manger, their confidence, morale and performance levels.

No need to panic, but there are certainly grounds for serious concern, and GJ will need to get a grip on the situation, pronto, or results could go into one of those scary nose-dives that we seem to experience at some stage in nearly every season. Up to now, he has, to be fair, always turned it around. The fear, of course, is that one day he'll find he can't. My guess is that, despite a terrific first 45 minutes against QPR that showed we can produce great one-touch football played at pace when deploying a 3-4-1-2 (or 3-5-2 or however you want to designate it), he will sooner or later have to revert to a more orthodox style with which the players are familiar, comfortable and able to produce a greater consistency of performance.

Having thus stuck my head on the chopping block, I shall now wait for the axe to fall. Over to you, gentlemen.

Good Post, agrre with all said.

Players play well when confident, confidence comes from when you believe in what you are doing. The team looks a mess.

Chopping and changing tatics especially at half time like we have in 2 recent games wont help.

The carlisle game also contained 7 memebers of the side that was not performing well last season, only Ribiero, Gerkin, Haynes and Akinde were not part of the team we all saw stuggling last season.

So GJ needs to get these players believing in what they are doing, stop chopping and changing, Play players where they need and want to play, ie, ORR and Maccalister are FULL BACKS and not WING BACKS , Clarkson is a Stiker not a midfield or in the whole player.

The main problem though is GJ has quite clearly set out is thoughts on 433 or 352 because he has not left many options for 442 with no decent wide players in the squad, Sproule is hopless and haynes is quick with but lacks the quality end product of decent crossing that we would need.

So GJ faces his toughest challange to date with out any question.

I just wish some of the guys in here would not over react either way. Fed up reading doom and gloom merchants saying Johnson out, and fed up reading what The rose tinted spectacle wearers are saying like Johnson has done for us over the last 3 seasons and he can do know wrong.

Its what we do know that counts and Mr Johnson must act quickly to stem the uncertainty in the dressing room and on the terraces. He needs to sign 2-3 more player quickly in my oppinion wide left and right and experienced target man, on loan or permanant.

[wookey]

Thoughtful post. There certainly seems to be something nasty in the woodshed.

The problems started last season when there was clearly poor team morale and we lost our way and matches over the last quarter.

We have also had the Orr incident, McIndoe leaving and Basso desperate to leave; all signs of unhappy bunnies.

Clearly bringing in a raft of new players and changing the system to something British players are unhappy with all at the same time looked like an accident waiting to happen.

In the short term, because I believe we have the talent,

1. I would appoint Hartley captain after all he is already driving and organising the team on the field,

2. Switch back to 4-4-2 and,

3. Move Lee Johnson out of the club by a transfer or a loan. The guy is clearly not good enough and playing him 24/7 last season must have wrankled in the dressing room. It is a boil that needs to be lanced.

4. I don't know Gary's managerial style. If it is dictatorial then I suggest he would benefit from the advice of people around him.

[BrizzleRed]

Having thus stuck my head on the chopping block, I shall now wait for the axe to fall. Over to you, gentlemen.

Personally Cliff, I think your head is safe, as this seems a very clear headed and sensible summing up of the situation.

We're a couple of days on and thinking about that performance still fills me with disbelief and makes me shudder ...... I don't think we can over-emphasise to anyone who wasn't there, it REALLY WAS THAT BAD!

I can also admit to worrying about possible problems in the dressing room but hope this isn't the case, because if the players and management aren't together, that can only spell trouble. There were a number of players on Wednesday who just weren't up for the game and as professionals, was inexcusable. I'm keeping my fingers crossed there's nothing sinister and it's just the combination of unfamiliar tactics and sickness and injury enforced changes in a team already trying to come to terms with a number of new recruits over the last few weeks that's produced those inept displays.

GJ and KM certainly have their work cut out and it will be a real challenge to see if they can turn things round, especially as the transfer activity over the summer appears to indicated we are now committed to playing without wingers, so our tactical options are pretty limited.

Let's just hope we see a very different attitude from the players on Saturday, because if we don't, there really will be a problem.

[westy]

Thoughtful post. There certainly seems to be something nasty in the woodshed.

The problems started last season when there was clearly poor team morale and we lost our way and matches over the last quarter.

We have also had the Orr incident, McIndoe leaving and Basso desperate to leave; all signs of unhappy bunnies.

Clearly bringing in a raft of new players and changing the system to something British players are unhappy with all at the same time looked like an accident waiting to happen.

In the short term, because I believe we have the talent,

1. I would appoint Hartley captain after all he is already driving and organising the team on the field,

2. Switch back to 4-4-2 and,

3. Move Lee Johnson out of the club by a transfer or a loan. The guy is clearly not good enough and playing him 24/7 last season must have wrankled in the dressing room. It is a boil that needs to be lanced.

4. I don't know Gary's managerial style. If it is dictatorial then I suggest he would benefit from the advice of people around him.

good post wooks makes the point clearer than I did - also you're right the basso / mcindoe / trundle no smoke without fire!!

I also like your captain idea - for a long time I have thought carey and mccombe and towards the wrong end of their careers and although both useful to the squad and carey's leadership abilities are great I don't see how they can continue to be capt and vice capt - nyatanga and fontaine are the future IMO thus new capt required, i've always fancied marv to do it but maybe you are right Hartley certainly seems to have a no nonsense thing about him however this is unlikely to happen due to the LJ situation

[annred]

I agree with a lot of what has been said but I think it is important to recognise that GJ is in the process of building a young side with potential ,bolstered with a number of experienced older players. I would like to see the team strengthened with two more good experienced players to ensure that the team does not struggle in the Championship this season. I would feel a great deal more optimistic if we had another central midfielder to support Hartley and another left sided player. I think that GJ has done a good job in his time with Bristol City and we will have to be patient because the next two seasons could be critical as the youngsters gain experience

[beaverface]

Trouble is, we spend all week training on how to play the 5-3-2 formation, and then when it goes tits up during the game, we then change to a formation that we haven't practised or trained with and the players wander around aimlessly.

In his interview GJ touched upon this by mentioning that Carlisle were a well organised side that didn't do anything outstanding, but held their shape and made it difficult for us to break down. The further the game went on, the more far-fetched our tatics went, and it all went to pot.

[CliftonCliff]

Trouble is, we spend all week training on how to play the 5-3-2 formation, and then when it goes tits up during the game, we then change to a formation that we haven't practised or trained with and the players wander around aimlessly.

In his interview GJ touched upon this by mentioning that Carlisle were a well organised side that didn't do anything outstanding, but held their shape and made it difficult for us to break down. The further the game went on, the more far-fetched our tatics went, and it all went to pot.

This is exactly one of the things I was driving at in my original post: thanks for reinforcing it.

The problem has, I believe, been there to see in earlier games, but masked to some degree by the fact that we've come away with a result, which naturally puts a rosy slant on things. You tend to shrink from posing awkward and unpopular questions when we've just won a game. It has been tight, though: nearly blew all three points at Preston; one-goal margins in other games that could quite easily have gone either away. I was keeping quiet before the Cardiff game because even sensible, constructive criticism at that stage would inevitably have brought forth a chorus of voices condeming me as 'negative' and branding me a moaner. The understandable optimism resulting from being in the play-off positions with seven points from ten tended to obscure some of the issues that have now exploded into focus with the last two performances.

Your second paragraph sums up the cup game, and the situation in general, in a nutshell. Carlisle were nothing special. They were simply a decent, well drilled and motivated side who, when they got possession (which was frequently, as we couldn't string two passes together all night) got the ball down and passed it to feet. In the form we were in, that was all it took to beat us. And the substition that saw McCombe brought on to play up front was, as you say, bizarre. I was gobsmacked at what seemed like an act of desperation and frankly embarrassed for McCombe himself, whose ungainly attempts to control the ball in positions that were totally foreign to him were painful to watch. Not his fault, of course.

As a postscript, I'd say that although I wrote relatively little that referred directly to the manager in my opening post, there is obviously some implied criticism of him in the things I said. I'd add that I think people have been right, whether on this thread or elsewhere, to suggest that on the forum there tends to be a division between two camps where GJ is concerned. There is the "always believe" sect, of which I am definitely not a member: if I wanted a religious experience, I'd go to church, not a football stadium. I don't do God.

Then there are those who seem to be always waiting to pounce and have a go at the bloke. I hope it's clear I'm not one of those, either, but it can be tricky to say what you think here without running the risk of somebody arbitrarily assigning you to one or other of the two positions. The truth is, I have had mixed feelings about Johnson ever since he arrived and that's never really changed. My policy has been to give credit where it's due (ands he deserves a huge amount for getting us where we are) and to offer what I hope is fair, balanced, constructive criticism when I disagree with something. I fully accept the comments of the member who pointed out that we are in the midst of a long-term developmental process that will take time to bear fruit. That said, I think just now he's got himself into a right old pickle and I suspect he won't know whether to stick to his guns with the new approach, or suffer a rather chastening climb-down that could undermine his credibilty with players and fans alike.

His decision on this could define our season. Watch this space.

[wiggles]

In my opinion, the fact that Johnson and Millen have both spoken about a "lack of effort" is absolutely alarming. I've mentioned this on other threads, and it seems to have been largely overlooked.

Football players of any age and ability, do not go onto the field and not try unless there is a reason for it.

I fear that there is a problem behind the scenes, and if it is a serious one, then it could be around for a while.

I think Johnson is right to try to evolve, be it through formation, new players or a different approach.

I hope he can root out the problem.

[downendcity]

Financial constraints and distance mean that I haven't been to any games yet this season, so I don't feel qualified to comment on specific performances. I do read the forum though, which actually gives a good cross section of opinion, much quite polarised, but with occassionaly a well thought out and balanced piece like Cliff's OP on this thread.

I get the impression that many of you have a gut feeling that "everything is not right", and this certainly came across from the feedback to Wednesday's defeat, where attitude as much as perfromance was emphasisied by many posters. Lots have commented that GJ has "lost the dressing room" and that he has problems with certain players. Obviously we have no way of knowing specifics, but it got me thinking to the last time we exerienced anything similar.

Go back to when GJ joined us. We were an establised league 1 team, by general consent we were failing to acheive our potential. One of the issues at that time was the culture that had been allowed to grow at the club whereby the players had too much their way. One of the first things GJ did was to confront that issue, and we all know the fallout. Hand grenades, senior players leaving and 9 defeats on the trot, didn't fill any of us with confidence or optimism. Why did we see such a reaction from the players? Because they were seeing their cozy existance being changed and how many people are happy to see everything they are comfortable with changing? Was it the end for GJ and Bristol City? No, it was the start of a new beginning for the club and laid the foundation for all that has been acheived since then.

Fast forward to the tail end of last season. I think it's fair to say that we had, in a short time, become an established championship club, but after the spectacular first season many felt that we were failing to acheive our potential. Rather than problems with player culture, many critics laid the blame on our playing style, lack of goals and perhaps an over reliance on players who got us promotion, but who were not perhaps good enough to take usd to the next level.

So what action has GJ taken to adress those issues? Firstly, we have seen probably the biggest turn over of players for some time. Secondly, GJ has introduced 3-5-2 as his chosen formation for this season. What effect has this had on the players? Some of the establised players must wbe worried about their future in the team, if not the club with the new players coming in and putting places under threat. The introduction of a new formation will add to that uncertainty as come players will find it more difficult than others to adapt to the new style. For the last 2 seasons you could almost name or back 4 and midfield 4 for every game with little or no change. It's all change thsi season and players are having to get used to playing alongside new teammates.

It might well be the case that results have masked our perfromances, and that players have not performed confidently because they are getting used to new players and a new formation. With so much change, different players will react in different ways. Some will knuckle down and get on with it, while some, who have a problem with that change, will be more outspoken (Marcus Stewart??). It is therefore quite possible that there is some "reaction" to Gjs' changes among the dressing room and this can be de-stabalizing.

Anyone who has been in management will know that managing change is one of the hardest things to do. I doubt that GJ has been on a series of management training courses as many in business and commerce will have done, and with his individual and direct management style, he may well find it harder to sell his ideas to a resistant dressing room. However, for the club to move on to the next level and compete for a promotion place, I think most of us would agree that we coudn't continue the way things were last season. GJ has been brave and made a major change. We might not all agree on the formation, or what players are picked in what position. However, if we want the club to progress we have to agree that changes had to be made, that the manager is the man with the responsibility for deciding those changes and that his career depends on getting these things right.

I remember the posts on here when we were losing 9 on the trot. How many then thought we would be at Wembley only a couple of year's later? Perhaps we need to have some trust in Johnson's ability and judgement and accept that it might take a while time to get these changes sorted out and all the players comfortable with the formation, so we can then properly judge the results. Of coursem, we also have to accept the possibility that it might not work, and then Johnson will be really tested because he will have to be big enough to admit his idea was wrong. However, if he caves in now, just because the players are resistant to his new ideas, then we will be back to the time he joined us, because the players will have the final say. We will get nowhere if that should happen again.

For what it's worth , my take on things at the moment is:-

-We have more pace in the team , and have needed this for some time.

-If possible, we should play without a target man because we play our best and most effective football on the ground.

-Playing without a target man is a big change for most fo theplayers and takes getting used to.

-Haynes and Maynard could form a potent striker force if we play to their strengths.

-Hartley in midfield should give us a stronger CM and more options if we do want to change formation in a game.

-Wing backs are the key to 3-5-2 and I wonder whether Orr and McAllister are the right players for this.

-If GJ is on a run of making big changes, then he ought to think about giving some of the younger players moreexperience as youngsters are less set in their ways and might adapt to his ideas beter than some of the more experienced players..

[Robbored]

6. In my experience, performances this dreadful can only happen when there is something wrong in the dressing room. This was a bunch of players whose hearts weren't in it. This is deeply worrying at this early stage in the season (or any time, for that matter). It has happened before under GJ. It has also been resolved in the past, and may again be only a temporary falling-out, but those were not happy guys out there. Not an excuse, of course. They are professionals and should get on with it, as I've said, but my guess is they are unclear about their roles in the side, fed up with and confused by changes in formation and tactics, and this is affecting their relationship with the manger, their confidence, morale and performance levels.

Thats exactly what many fans were getting at when they asked 'Has Johnson lost the dressing room?' after the Wednesday night desperate shambles.

Some forum users saw that question/suggestion as 'extreme' but as you suggest how else can a performance like that be explained? If there are problems within the camp then I hope it won't take another club record of 9 straight defeats to put it right.

Johnson has already layed the excuse foundations of a possible defeat this saturday by saying that in his opinion 'Boro are the best team in the league'. So if City do lose then it would be no disgrace.

I await tomorrows game with trepidation...

[CliftonCliff]

Thats exactly what many fans were getting at when they asked 'Has Johnson lost the dressing room?' after the Wednesday night desperate shambles.

Some forum users saw that question/suggestion as 'extreme' but as you suggest how else can a performance like that be explained? If there are problems within the camp then I hope it won't take another club record of 9 straight defeats to put it right.

Johnson has already layed the excuse foundations of a possible defeat this saturday by saying that in his opinion 'Boro are the best team in the league'. So if City do lose then it would be no disgrace.

I await tomorrows game with trepidation...

My thoughts, too, Robbo. The lurch from 45 minutes of terrific, one-touch football played at pace against QPR to a nigh-on unbelieveable, spiritless shambles against Carlisle takes some explaining. These things happen for a reason. You sense something's gone on behind the scenes.

Johnson's regime does seem to have been characterised by these swings from one end of the spectrum to the other, though this latest example is perhaps the most extreme so far. I am thinking of our tendency to put together long undefeated runs when we're going well, which alternate with these terrifying nose-dives when you wonder if where the next win's coming from and whether we're ever going to pull out of it. All teams experience fluctuations in form, of course, but I'm talking about something that seems more marked than that, and which seems to coincide with periodic dressing room bust-ups.

As I keep saying, for fear of being pilloried by the "Johnson is God" squad, I am not pursuing an anti-Gary agenda here, but his man-management style has always slightly baffled me. At times he seems like a consumate motivator who can instill a strong team ethic and get a modest group of honest players to perform above themselves to great effect. At other times he resembles the mythical bloke who could start an argument in an empty room. There is a volatility about his relations with players sometimes that worries me. Maybe it's no different from what happens at every club, but one thing is sure - he's got his work cut out to get a performance out of them tomorrow after what we saw on Wednesday. If he can get a result against Boro, I'll take my hat off to him, but I'm not holding my breath.

[beaverface]

In my opinion, the fact that Johnson and Millen have both spoken about a "lack of effort" is absolutely alarming. I've mentioned this on other threads, and it seems to have been largely overlooked.

Football players of any age and ability, do not go onto the field and not try unless there is a reason for it.

I fear that there is a problem behind the scenes, and if it is a serious one, then it could be around for a while.

I think Johnson is right to try to evolve, be it through formation, new players or a different approach.

I hope he can root out the problem.

The thing is, I didn't think we were applying a "lack of effort" on Wednesday night. I think players like Danny Haynes, Ribero, Marvin Elliott we're getting around the pitch with plenty of energy, I just felt they were more headless chickens - nothing to do with any lack of effort.

More of a concern to me was the long-ball's being pumped forward, lack of movement, lack of shape, lack of tactics and lack of a first touch by everyone !

Maybe the lads could have squeezed an extra 5% more effort out of themselves, but that was the least of our problems.

[DavidNoble]

The thing is, I didn't think we were applying a "lack of effort" on Wednesday night. I think players like Danny Haynes, Ribero, Marvin Elliott we're getting around the pitch with plenty of energy, I just felt they were more headless chickens - nothing to do with any lack of effort.

More of a concern to me was the long-ball's being pumped forward, lack of movement, lack of shape, lack of tactics and lack of a first touch by everyone !

Maybe the lads could have squeezed an extra 5% more effort out of themselves, but that was the least of our problems.

That's the thing, for me i dont think marvin worked anywhere near as hard as he usually does. Usually he is the man that works the hardest but he seemed to just trot about. Very very unlike Marvin. He can't live off 2007/08 forever. His top performances are becoming few and far between now.

[Robbored]

The thing is, I didn't think we were applying a "lack of effort" on Wednesday night. I think players like Danny Haynes, Ribero, Marvin Elliott we're getting around the pitch with plenty of energy, I just felt they were more headless chickens - nothing to do with any lack of effort.

More of a concern to me was the long-ball's being pumped forward, lack of movement, lack of shape, lack of tactics and lack of a first touch by everyone !

Indeed. An astute observation.

Even more surprising that neither Millen nor Johnson acknowledeged thier part in the wreckage of wednesday night.

[CliftonCliff]

The thing is, I didn't think we were applying a "lack of effort" on Wednesday night. I think players like Danny Haynes, Ribero, Marvin Elliott we're getting around the pitch with plenty of energy, I just felt they were more headless chickens - nothing to do with any lack of effort.

More of a concern to me was the long-ball's being pumped forward, lack of movement, lack of shape, lack of tactics and lack of a first touch by everyone !

Maybe the lads could have squeezed an extra 5% more effort out of themselves, but that was the least of our problems.

I think you could just about make a case for that last statement in relation to the second half, when they'd had a half time roasting and Carey was doing his level best to instill a bit of urgency into them, but the first half was like watching a pre-season practice game on the training ground. Most of them didn't bother getting out of first gear.

You're right about everything else, though, especially the lack of any obvious structure to the team, probably for the reasons that have been debated above. In some ways, the fact that they may have made a tad more effort after the break is even more worrying, because if some sort of serious attempt was being made to win the game, it was not apparent from the quality of football produced. We may have upped the wotk rate a bit, but we still couldn't string more than a couple of passes together without then giving the ball away. If we reproduce that tomorrow, we'll be played off the pitch.