Loyalty Points Re-visited - Who Made The Decisons?

[Markman]

Mods - I know I have a thread on this below but now I have more info and I would like to raise this again.

It seems the Supporters Trust (based on calls made to the ticket office today) made the decision to award backdated Loyalty Points for games last season.

Now - who gives them the authority to do this?

Of course I can now see that many of my "points" were at pay on the day matches - but I still travelled to the games and bought my tickets and demonstrated my loyalty - I even have some ticket stubs! But - none of this counts as you have to have bought them through the ticket office - but NONE of us knew that.

How can any organsiation apply a restrospective qualifying process that disadvantages some of its "members/supporters". It is simply not acceptable for the Supporters Trust to make this decision. In fact I think legally it can and should be challenged.

The ONLY process that would be fair would be to announce it for this year and we all start at Zero - ok that knocks out all of us for last year and previous seasons but at least we know where we stand - now we have a process that suits some and clearly disadvantagaes many of the most "loyal" supporters this club has - I think this is a disgrace and needs to be challenged.

[Nibor]

The supporters trust cannot have made a decision since it is the club's loyalty scheme. They might have advised or offered an opinion.

[bartolona]

When the new smartcards were introduced it was stated that the club would be adding loyalty points to your card, i knew when buying tickets for away games last season i would be getting points on my smartcard for future use high demand games.

[Blagdon red]

Mods - I know I have a thread on this below but now I have more info and I would like to raise this again.

It seems the Supporters Trust (based on calls made to the ticket office today) made the decision to award backdated Loyalty Points for games last season.

Now - who gives them the authority to do this?

Of course I can now see that many of my "points" were at pay on the day matches - but I still travelled to the games and bought my tickets and demonstrated my loyalty - I even have some ticket stubs! But - none of this counts as you have to have bought them through the ticket office - but NONE of us knew that.

How can any organsiation apply a restrospective qualifying process that disadvantages some of its "members/supporters". It is simply not acceptable for the Supporters Trust to make this decision. In fact I think legally it can and should be challenged.

The ONLY process that would be fair would be to announce it for this year and we all start at Zero - ok that knocks out all of us for last year and previous seasons but at least we know where we stand - now we have a process that suits some and clearly disadvantagaes many of the most "loyal" supporters this club has - I think this is a disgrace and needs to be challenged.

Hi Markman,

The Trust didn't implement this system, the club did. On the whole, however, we support it.

The nature of the scheme was well publicised as far back as July 2008, when the club announced its introduction and we commented on this:

Trust view on membership scheme - July 2008

The task of deciding on the number of points to be allocated per game was then allocated by the club to the FCF.

As has been said in other threads, our understanding is that the club sees the loyalty scheme very much as something that will evolve over time based on experience of operating it and feedback from fans. If you would like to make any constructive suggestions about how it might be tweaked for the future, I know David Lloyd would be happy to hear from you (you can e-mail him at david.lloyd@bcfc.co.uk).

As for the Newcastle game, I don't think anybody without ten points is going to lose out. Although I've got enough points myself, I waited until today to buy my ticket as others I am going with didn't have enough points, and was able to do so with no trouble down at the Gate this morning. I understand others have done likewise online and on the phone.

In general, as I say, the Trust welcomed back in July 2008 the fact that the club was introducing a loyalty system after so long without one - and after so many big games where the system of ticket allocation had left a lot to be desired - and we're pleased to see them now putting it into practice and happy to learn from experience and tweak the system as time goes by.

PS: To make sure you keep updated about things like this in the future, why not sign up for the Trust's e-newsletter via the form in the top right-hand corner of this forum?!

[Guest DanC]

I was well aware of it last season and made every effort to ensure if I attended a away game I gave them my ref number.

[Markman]

Thanks Blagdon Red - I add some comments beneath your reply in red

Hi Markman,

The Trust didn't implement this system, the club did. On the whole, however, we support it.

Not quite what I was told on the phone this morning - but we can park that.

The nature of the scheme was well publicised as far back as July 2008, when the club announced its introduction and we commented on this:

Trust view on membership scheme - July 2008

The task of deciding on the number of points to be allocated per game was then allocated by the club to the FCF.

All fine and dandy - but does this say that points would/will be added retrospectively? I don't think so (but I am at work and so may have missed it) - but I don't think it tells us this nor advises us to buy tickets through the club just in case. As such that does not make this the correct decision it makes it unfair?

As has been said in other threads, our understanding is that the club sees the loyalty scheme very much as something that will evolve over time based on experience of operating it and feedback from fans. If you would like to make any constructive suggestions about how it might be tweaked for the future, I know David Lloyd would be happy to hear from you (you can e-mail him at david.lloyd@bcfc.co.uk).

The first tweak and the fairest is to abandon retrospective points - that is just a silly decision and completly unfair - do that and I would be happy for one!

As for the Newcastle game, I don't think anybody without ten points is going to lose out. Although I've got enough points myself, I waited until today to buy my ticket as others I am going with didn't have enough points, and was able to do so with no trouble down at the Gate this morning. I understand others have done likewise online and on the phone.

In general, as I say, the Trust welcomed back in July 2008 the fact that the club was introducing a loyalty system after so long without one - and after so many big games where the system of ticket allocation had left a lot to be desired - and we're pleased to see them now putting it into practice and happy to learn from experience and tweak the system as time goes by.

I don't have a problem with the system - the backdated points are a problem to me - the only FAIR way is we all start from Zero - that way the most loyal would have had first bags for Newcastle anyway and fair enough - but not counting points that cost many of us hundreds if not thousands of pounds over a season because we make our own way or pay on the day is simply out of order - reduce all to Zero and start this season - that seems fair to me.

PS: To make sure you keep updated about things like this in the future, why not sign up for the Trust's e-newsletter via the form in the top right-hand corner of this forum?!

There must be some sort of reason why I have not done so in the past - I will try to remember what it was!

[Alex_BCFC]

I'm pretty sure that the club said that you would only get points if you bought via them and no pay on the day.

It is a pretty fair system (you can never please everyone) and my thanks go to The Trust and the club for implementing it.

[andy g]

To be honest I don't think you're going to get a perfect system, but the one they've invented seems about as fair as you can get.

If they didn't include the points from last season, there would probably be people complaining that they'd been to every game last season and their loyalty should be rewarded etc. etc...

Personally, I'd like a system which rewarded me for going to home games (as every home game for me is a 260 mile round trip !) but I can understand why it's been done the way it has.

Anyway, as it turns out there's been a disappointingly low take up from the "super-loyal" fans and there have been plenty of tickets on sale today for the rest of us.

[thatcham red]

It is very difficult to gauge what is fair, but it has to start somewhere. In this instance, that means recognising people who travelled to away games last season and this season.

I have read on other threads how people who have supported the club through thick and thin, but due to circumstances can't attend so often these days, feel that this is unfair. So these people would like it to extend back even further, rather than start at the beginning of this season.

On a practical note, I believe that loyalty points relating to only this season would not have been very meaningful by the time the first big games came around.

When the club first talked about a membership scheme, the Trust was very keen that it included a loyalty element. Like all new schemes, it will take time to get established and inevitably there will be winners and losers.

If it helps, I didn't have enough points for Newcastle due to paying on the day and various other circumstances.

[Markman]

I'm pretty sure that the club said that you would only get points if you bought via them and no pay on the day.

It is a pretty fair system (you can never please everyone) and my thanks go to The Trust and the club for implementing it.

Definition of fair? The definition is "Treating People Equally" "The Same".

Retrospectve points are not equal and do not treat people the same. It is as simple as that but some on here will support it and say well done and thats up to them.

It has to be fairer not to add points retrospectively and if you can show me where the club say "buy through them" just in case I will be quite surprised.

Still time to do the right thing and scrap the retrospective points and act "fairly" by only using points gained now that we all know.

[bartolona]

Still time to do the right thing and scrap the retrospective points and act "fairly" by only using points gained now that we all know.

Why? we all knew anyway!

i knew when buying tickets for away games last season i would be getting points on my smartcard for future use high demand games.

I was well aware of it last season and made every effort to ensure if I attended a away game I gave them my ref number.

I'm pretty sure that the club said that you would only get points if you bought via them and no pay on the day.

[CiderJar]

Still time to do the right thing and scrap the retrospective points and act "fairly" by only using points gained now that we all know.

Didn't we all know in July 2008 when the smart cards were first issued? <smugness>I did</smugness>

[Riaz]

I don't have a problem with the system - the backdated points are a problem to me - the only FAIR way is we all start from Zero - that way the most loyal would have had first bags for Newcastle anyway and fair enough - but not counting points that cost many of us hundreds if not thousands of pounds over a season because we make our own way or pay on the day is simply out of order - reduce all to Zero and start this season - that seems fair to me.

So, peoples support from last season means nothing?? because you say so?

If we get a big game at the beginning of the season, then the club can only rely on last seasons games for the points system, seems fair to me.

It is also unfair to expect pay on the day to count. The club have no control over other clubs tickets unless they are bought in advance from our ticket office.... so it would be near impossible to manage.

[Markman]

Why? we all knew anyway!

Then I ask again (and to the point Ciderjar makes) - where and when does it say buy your tickets through the club. You might have assumed they would add restrospective points but no-one "knew" - or we would all have done it.

Matters not - the I'm allright jack brigade play their normal tune and the simplicity of starting this from this season with a clear announcement and no retrospective points gets ignored..ho hum

[Blagdon red]

Definition of fair? The definition is "Treating People Equally" "The Same".

Retrospectve points are not equal and do not treat people the same. It is as simple as that but some on here will support it and say well done and thats up to them.

It has to be fairer not to add points retrospectively and if you can show me where the club say "buy through them" just in case I will be quite surprised.

Still time to do the right thing and scrap the retrospective points and act "fairly" by only using points gained now that we all know.

Anything is fair if people are aware of how things are going to work from the outset. As I indicated above, the concept of loyalty being rewarded through use of season / membership cards has been talked about on the club site since July 2008. In an article about memberships in November 2008 it also said: "Like season card holders, all members receive a smart card which is used to enter the stadium and can also track the attendance - ensuring the club can properly reward its most loyal fans in the future". Maybe the club could have promoted this more clearly, but evidently many of the posters in this thread were aware that use of their season / membership card to buy tickets last season would be tracked and may be used for a future loyalty scheme in this way.

The key thing now, though, is not to look backwards, but to think of ways in which the system as it stands at present could be enhanced in the future and to feed such ideas back to the club - via the Trust, if you wish, or direct to DL.

[Riaz]

Then I ask again (and to the point Ciderjar makes) - where and when does it say buy your tickets through the club. You might have assumed they would add restrospective points but no-one "knew" - or we would all have done it.

Matters not - the I'm allright jack brigade play their normal tune and the simplicity of starting this from this season with a clear announcement and no retrospective points gets ignored..ho hum

I've noticed it countless times when ticket details have been released

[Markman]

I've noticed it countless times when ticket details have been released

I give up - Blagdon says move on so be it - but even with tickets I did buy through the club it never made retrospective points clear so you must have had different tickets or read different release to me - even Blagdon indicates it could have been clearer (thanks for that at least)

[CiderJar]

I am just wondering how you expected a pay on the day ticket, presumably bought at an opponent club, to be added to a total that is associated with your smart card?

There used to be a system whereby you could present ticket stubs to prove loyalty but those days are gone. That said I know if I take my receipt to YESCOs they will add it to my clubcard so perhaps you could try and see if City can credit your smartcard retrospectively?

I am not all smug, my kids had ten points in terms of games attended. But I stupidly "bought" them free Carlisle tickets, which would have been the extra point they needed, and so their cards were not credited. I ran the gauntlet this morning and they have tickets for Newcastle so all is well.

As was pointed out, no loyalty system can possibly be fair to all. You'll find this out when visiting YESCOs in BS3.

[Alex_BCFC]

Definition of fair? The definition is "Treating People Equally" "The Same".

Retrospectve points are not equal and do not treat people the same. It is as simple as that but some on here will support it and say well done and thats up to them.

It has to be fairer not to add points retrospectively and if you can show me where the club say "buy through them" just in case I will be quite surprised.

Still time to do the right thing and scrap the retrospective points and act "fairly" by only using points gained now that we all know.

We were told last season that the points would count for buying through the club. If you didn't count last seasons point then you have had a free for all on the Newcastle tickets which would have been totally unfair.

We all knew last season (or those who read the website did) so the club have done the right thing.

[Alex_BCFC]

Anyway, as it turns out there's been a disappointingly low take up from the "super-loyal" fans and there have been plenty of tickets on sale today for the rest of us.

Has there been? There are only about 750 fans with over 10 points and I'm pretty sure 90% of them would have got tickets for the match.

[croax]

Although its hard to take into account everybodys cirumstances I am quite annoyed by this. Being at university its hard enough to get to games let alone afford them and then thus results in this system classing me as a 'lesser' fan. I now cant go to Newcastle away as I dont have enough points.

Last season I tried to get to as many away games as possible when I was back in Bristol (Blackpool, Cardiff, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Birmingham). This season i've been to Cardiff and just booked for Coventry. I make that 8 points excluding Coventry. Would have been good if there had been some way to include people like myself into the system.

My biggest moan would be that Cardiff is only one point I believe? I see Newcastle is 3. Reading the criteria for the points system it includes popularity and how easy it is to get to. Surely this shows Newcastle is a very popular game going by ticket sales, therefore not justifying this criteria. Also some might argue easier to get to. Now taking the cardiff buble trip into consideration and the amount of fans that travelled surely this should mean either Cardiff should be worth more points or Newcastle should be worth less??

Also, those that have now got tickets for the Newcastle game have a further 3 points. 2,800 of them. This basically rules me out of attending any important/big games for the rest of the season as 3 points is quite a lot.

[Jungle Jim]

Although its hard to take into account everybodys cirumstances I am quite annoyed by this. Being at university its hard enough to get to games let alone afford them and then thus results in this system classing me as a 'lesser' fan. I now cant go to Newcastle away as I dont have enough points.

Last season I tried to get to as many away games as possible when I was back in Bristol (Blackpool, Cardiff, Portsmouth, Plymouth and Birmingham). This season i've been to Cardiff and just booked for Coventry. I make that 8 points excluding Coventry. Would have been good if there had been some way to include people like myself into the system.

My biggest moan would be that Cardiff is only one point I believe? I see Newcastle is 3. Reading the criteria for the points system it includes popularity and how easy it is to get to. Surely this shows Newcastle is a very popular game going by ticket sales, therefore not justifying this criteria. Also some might argue easier to get to. Now taking the cardiff buble trip into consideration and the amount of fans that travelled surely this should mean either Cardiff should be worth more points or Newcastle should be worth less??

Also, those that have now got tickets for the Newcastle game have a further 3 points. 2,800 of them. This basically rules me out of attending any important/big games for the rest of the season as 3 points is quite a lot.

Cardiff is two points. So was Birmingham last season. So you should have 11 points before Coventry, and as such there is a way that you are included in the system...assuming you bought all your tickets through the club and are a member/ST holder.

[croax]

Cardiff is two points. So was Birmingham last season. So you should have 11 points before Coventry, and as such there is a way that you are included in the system...assuming you bought all your tickets through the club and are a member/ST holder.

Why on earth did they tell me I had 8 points then when I went into get my Coventry tickets today???

I am a member, and yes, I bought all my tickets through the club as I always go on CATS so I get the coach and matchday tickets together.

[Alex_BCFC]

Although its hard to take into account everybodys cirumstances I am quite annoyed by this. Being at university its hard enough to get to games let alone afford them and then thus results in this system classing me as a 'lesser' fan. I now cant go to Newcastle away as I dont have enough points.

How would like them to measure it?

I think the points you make re: the points are fair enough and the system isn't perfect. But I still think it is by far the best way to allocate tickets for games like this. Some people have suggested loyalty should be based on age etc etc. Different people want different systems but this is the fairest I think there could have been. Or do you want people who support Man U or Liverpool getting in the queue first just so they can go to Newcastle's ground?

[CiderJar]

Tickets went on sale to all members and season ticket holders today, regardless of points. There were only about 800 fans with ten points, leaving 2000 tickets. No reason why you couldn't have got a ticket, albeit that they sold very quickly. What is the scope for more tickets being made available if our allocation is sold? We can make 2,800 available in a less than 20,000 capacity, surely Newcastle have room for more? They haven't been selling out for some reason this season.

Edit: Sorry, my mistake, members needed 10 loyalty points

[croax]

No worries Ciderjar, but it did make my heart drop!

This does seem the best possible way to allocate tickets at this moment in time. Just it can be quite frustrating. Especially when I seem to have 11 points when I get quoted for only having 8 when i know for sure I didnt POTD.

[Jungle Jim]

Why on earth did they tell me I had 8 points then when I went into get my Coventry tickets today???

I am a member, and yes, I bought all my tickets through the club as I always go on CATS so I get the coach and matchday tickets together.

Actually just noticed Blackpool last season was 2 points, even though its 3 for this season, not sure why that is!

So that would put you on 10 and still eligible for Newcastle.

Best way to check if they've given you the right total is go to online tickets, my account and loyalty points.

On the wider point, I think this is a good system. The info was there that you needed to give your st/membership details last season for away tickets but in fairness it wasn't that obvious, and also wasn't obvious that 08/09 games would be used for 09/10 tickets. Now everyone is fully aware how it works it should be good.

Do any of the ST know if the points are going to keep building up, or say 08/09 will be knocked off at the end of this season?

[croax]

I imagine 08/09 will be cleared at the end of the season. Hardly good promotion by the club alienating the upcoming younger fans by demanding they have x amount of points over the past few years!

[Jungle Jim]

But you get into another debate of which Englandfans members will be all too familiar - at what point do you balance giving a fair chance to new fans against the loyalty of those who have been going for years. I reckon points should be kept for at least a couple of years to reward loyalty over more than a season.

Whilst we're in the Championship there's only going to be a couple of games a season where getting tickets is an issue, so everyone has plenty of chance to get as many points as they like. But as and when we go up, there will be allocation/demand issues like this for the majority of games, and of course those with the points get the tickets and so get more points, so those without will be "forced" to do Wigan on a wednesday night to try and catch up.

[Blagdon red]

Actually just noticed Blackpool last season was 2 points, even though its 3 for this season, not sure why that is!

So that would put you on 10 and still eligible for Newcastle.

Best way to check if they've given you the right total is go to online tickets, my account and loyalty points.

On the wider point, I think this is a good system. The info was there that you needed to give your st/membership details last season for away tickets but in fairness it wasn't that obvious, and also wasn't obvious that 08/09 games would be used for 09/10 tickets. Now everyone is fully aware how it works it should be good.

Do any of the ST know if the points are going to keep building up, or say 08/09 will be knocked off at the end of this season?

There was some discussion about how often points should be carried forward from one season to another back in spring 2008 when we were throwing around some ideas with the club. I think they recognise the need to have some of write-off of 'old points' at some stage but I don't know if they have come to a conclusion yet on how/when that should be done. So here again there is scope for anyone who cares to think through how this might work to contribute their ideas to the club's decision-making process.