Religion

[CiderHider]

Interesting to see where people are, do you believe in God? If not, why not? If so, why so?

Comments of course very welcome.

[zookeeper]

Interesting to see where people are, do you believe in God? If not, why not? If so, why so?

Comments of course very welcome.

Who cares! (well apart from the millions who fight wars, hate others of different religions and life their life by a set of rules imposed upon them in the name of their god!)

[screech]

I believe in the science of how the universe started, so ruling out God, but, there would have been something to start this process in the first place, so ruling in a higher force we know nothing about.

I'm 50 - 50 of whether he exists or not.

I can't see how anyone can say they totally believe or disbelieve, because you have to have evidence either way to prove it, and without proof it is impossible to rule in or out.

[annred]

I believe in the science of how the universe started, so ruling out God, but, there would have been something to start this process in the first place, so ruling in a higher force we know nothing about.

I'm 50 - 50 of whether he exists or not.

I can't see how anyone can say they totally believe or disbelieve, because you have to have evidence either way to prove it, and without proof it is impossible to rule in or out.

I presume you mean the big bang theory. If you think about it, or a stable planet with exactly the right conditions to allow human life to exist, needs so many coincidences or miracles it is almost impossible not to believe in a supreme being.

[fka dagest]

I presume you mean the big bang theory. If you think about it, or a stable planet with exactly the right conditions to allow human life to exist, needs so many coincidences or miracles it is almost impossible not to believe in a supreme being.

Yes, that's the one thing that makes me think there is something behind it all. According to SCIENTISTS the chances of us ever exisiting were so remote that we should never have occured at all. Yet, we did. Is it just a huge miracle?

Mind you, I suppose that based on the ssumption that there's only one universe. In a Multiverse the odds are presumably shortened considerably.

[Riaz]

Strong atheist. I believe in reality - I also believe when your dead.... your dead.

[Gazred]

I asked a church going Christian a question many years ago, its a question thats been asked by many doubters or non belivers over the years im sure. I asked how come there is so much suffering in the world, why doesnt God step in and make things better?

The answer i got was that God had created the rules with which we must live our lives but over the years we have forgotten them or chosen not to follow them and the world we live in now is all our own doing.

In reality id find it hard to loyaly follow someone that clearly doesnt give a shit about something he is the boss of, his creation, let alone give up my time, faith and loyalty to some omnipotent being thats not given the slightest indication that he exisits for some 2000 years and thats if you do belive in the Bible.

Im a sceptic at best.

[annred]

I asked a church going Christian a question many years ago, its a question thats been asked by many doubters or non belivers over the years im sure. I asked how come there is so much suffering in the world, why doesnt God step in and make things better?

The answer i got was that God had created the rules with which we must live our lives but over the years we have forgotten them or chosen not to follow them and the world we live in now is all our own doing.

In reality id find it hard to loyaly follow someone that clearly doesnt give a shit about something he is the boss of, his creation, let alone give up my time, faith and loyalty to some omnipotent being thats not given the slightest indication that he exisits for some 2000 years and thats if you do belive in the Bible.

Im a sceptic at best.

It's good to be a sceptic and not take things at face value but after the death of Christ there were only a few followers left but in spite of dreadful persecution for centuries the church has grown worldwide and believe it or not is still growing. It might be worth some investigation.

[cswhitlock]

Strong atheist. I believe in reality - I also believe when your dead.... your dead.

i am with Riaz here strong atheist since the age of 12 no god no chance if there was wouldnt be suffering on a grand scale peado's murderers mass murderers religon causes conflict puts human against human

The day we went to "space" was the day there was no god

[Gazred]

I agree an inquisitive mind is good attitude to have. Imagine how a messiah would be treated these days, the amount of investigation and scientific fact that would need to be established before anyone would take this seriously would be unheard of. Would the powers at be even allow this to be common knowledge? Which religion would this messiah represent? How would other religions react to that fact? Its all good and well the first time this happens and people choose to believe and follow but now that the world has split into 4 or 5 major religions, which one is the true religion? Who is actually following Gods will? Are the extremes of Sharia law still in tune to the will of God?

The inquisitive mind asks questions, when given an answer to a question an inquisitive mind asks questions of the answer, i don't believe a truly religious mindset does, it accepts the answer without question.

Religion, the best form of social control ever created.

[Barrs Court Red]

While I'm scepticle on religion at best, I find the big bang theory laughable.

Some things are far bigger than we can understand, while others will remain a mystery unless we ever find a way of leaving our solar system.

Our christian god is just one of many thousands worshipped over the course of human history, but the notion of something higher doesn't seem unreasonable to me. Infact it seems more plausable than believing space is finite.

[annred]

I am amazed at the response to this question. How can you make a decision on faith to last you all of your life when you were still an adolescent? Do you really think that all wars are caused by religion? Havent you heard of the world wars,the Spanish civil war, the Napoleonic wars? These were caused by well known athiests.

[Barrs Court Red]

Neither did the world wars, but each side in any war will tell the people that god is on their side.

[annred]

Neither did the world wars, but each side in any war will tell the people that god is on their side.

Does that include Hitler and Stalin? I think you will find it is people that make wars, whatever their belief or lack of it.

[Barrs Court Red]

Does that include Hitler and Stalin? I think you will find it is people that make wars, whatever their belief or lack of it.

But the people always have a belief that they are fighting for, rather than for the sake of fighting.

[annred]

But the people always have a belief that they are fighting for, rather than for the sake of fighting.

Over the centuries many people have had no choice but to fight due to forcible conscription. I think wars are fought for all sorts of reasons including religious differences, to maintain a way of life, to satisfy the imperialistic ambitions of the ruling classes and often just for survival.

[Philip Belgrave]

I am amazed at the response to this question. How can you make a decision on faith to last you all of your life when you were still an adolescent? Do you really think that all wars are caused by religion? Havent you heard of the world wars,the Spanish civil war, the Napoleonic wars? These were caused by well known athiests.

Absolutely.Those who believe that "All wars are caused by religion" have a totally superficial view of history.

The Spanish Civil war was an typical case in point. On the surface it might have seemed that a chief object of this conflict was to restore the status of the Roman Catholic Church within the Spanish state but there was far ,far more involved than that.

I thought that the 'Does God exist?" debate was done to death not so long ago - and a vote on the subject ?- Who cares ? Vox populi non est vox Dei

[CiderHider]

Some interesting replys, thanks. I'm virtually certain there is no God, where is the proof?

God is man made for mans own purposes, Christians, Jews, Muslims believe in a myth, Relegion is evil and parents teaching their children scripture from any of the above is child abuse and they should be locked up.

I'm not sure whats worse, leaving your kids with a known paedophile touching them up or a morning at Sunday school being brainwashed, mentally abused and scarred for life.

If yougoto A Catholic Sunday school you can prolly count on both

[annred]

Some interesting replys, thanks. I'm virtually certain there is no God, where is the proof?

God is man made for mans own purposes, Christians, Jews, Muslims believe in a myth, Relegion is evil and parents teaching their children scripture from any of the above is child abuse and they should be locked up.

I'm not sure whats worse, leaving your kids with a known paedophile touching them up or a morning at Sunday school being brainwashed, mentally abused and scarred for life.

If yougoto A Catholic Sunday school you can prolly count on both

Have you researched this subject? If you read God's word you will see he asks us to love each other and to love him. I envy you your certainty and you wont have to worry because we are rushing towards a government dominated secular state and the awful abuse of teaching children to respect and love each other will soon be a thing of the past

[CiderHider]

Have you researched this subject? If you read God's word you will see he asks us to love each other and to love him. I envy you your certainty and you wont have to worry because we are rushing towards a government dominated secular state and the awful abuse of teaching children to respect and love each other will soon be a thing of the past

Yeah, sadly i have, but its misspent time imo.

I think you need to read Gods word yourself(talking about Christianity, Islam, Judaism), hes a racist, bigoted, egotistical, woman hating, homophobic, vindictively capriciously malevolent sadomasochistic bully.

God is made up by man for their own purposes of control, that much should be clear and indisputabe. We dont need religion to progress, we need it gone. I would not seek to destroy places of worship though, hell...i dont need too, religion is on its way down anyway, its like a scared animal backed into a corner, its ****** and it knows it and will fight for its futile survival, I don't need to destroy its den to destroy it. science will be its demise, it cant come soon enough as i hate religion and all it stands for, its utterly evil and destroys everything good.

[screech]

Have you researched this subject? If you read God's word you will see he asks us to love each other and to love him. I envy you your certainty and you wont have to worry because we are rushing towards a government dominated secular state and the awful abuse of teaching children to respect and love each other will soon be a thing of the past

I have to say your use of "Gods word" scares me.

It's a book at the end of the day, It was written many centuries ago, it's seen many changes through many languages. A religion is not what you need to live by, following a religion is something that keeps the people scared of living.

I believe any "higher being" doesn't want worshipping daily, maybe a nod and a wink in it's general direction now and again wouldn't go amiss but, spending everyday giving thanks to it and telling you to live by a book it never wrote?

No, live and let live, enjoy what you do, and when your time is up, what will be, will be. I can't see how a "God" would want it any other way, it gave you life, why would it stop you living it?

[cswhitlock]

Have you researched this subject? If you read God's word you will see he asks us to love each other and to love him. I envy you your certainty and you wont have to worry because we are rushing towards a government dominated secular state and the awful abuse of teaching children to respect and love each other will soon be a thing of the past

Any one that thinks the Bible IS "Gods word" is seriously in need of some counselling as it has been proven that the first scriptures put into text were somewhat 500 years after the event now i can imagine there was a guy called Jesus he was definately not how he is pictured in all churches accross this land. He was of Arab decent he was probably of tanned skin and also about 5'6" i expect he did feed 500 but certainly not with 2 loaves and 5 Fishes (done my homework) i expect he didnt walk on water but as with all chinese whispers i myself once according to folklore swam accross the harbour but it dont make it so does it. 500 years of story telling mean embelleshment on the story is no doubt certain. Sorry Annred i do belive that faith causes war i do notice you fail to mention the coutless "crusades" of the christian church in the name of your so called "god"

[annred]

Any one that thinks the Bible IS "Gods word" is seriously in need of some counselling as it has been proven that the first scriptures put into text were somewhat 500 years after the event now i can imagine there was a guy called Jesus he was definately not how he is pictured in all churches accross this land. He was of Arab decent he was probably of tanned skin and also about 5'6" i expect he did feed 500 but certainly not with 2 loaves and 5 Fishes (done my homework) i expect he didnt walk on water but as with all chinese whispers i myself once according to folklore swam accross the harbour but it dont make it so does it. 500 years of story telling mean embelleshment on the story is no doubt certain. Sorry Annred i do belive that faith causes war I do notice you fail to mention the coutless "crusades" of the christian church in the name of your so called "god"

Hello, nice to chat. I quite agree that the bible is not all God's word but I do have to disagree with you about 500 years. The books of the New Testament were all written within 100 years of the death of Christ and put together some 600 years later.The books were used by the churches during all of that time. I would suggest that it is misguided faith that can cause wars, the crusaders thought theywould go straight to heaven as do the Muslim terror gangs. With all due respect if you have to quote a series of wars which ended 600 years ago the argument is a bit dodgy.

[southy354]

I find the idea of God silly enough not to think about it, never occurred to me that there is one. We need causation, a God got stuck in there to fill a hole that science will find hard filling. Also, a God isn't verifiable, so there's no point discussing it really. Aspects of ethics in religions, yes, about a God, no.

[Mr Mosquito]

Does that include Hitler and Stalin? I think you will find it is people that make wars, whatever their belief or lack of it.

Interesting that you should mention Hitler and Stalin. Hitler accused Stalin's USSR of being Godless and Stalin - against Communist doctrine - ordered the re-opening of the Russian churches during the German onslaught. Most of Hitler's underlings were - apparently - Pagan. You might find the following text astonishing........

MIRACLES ON THE ROADS OF WAR

by Tatyana Shvetsova

On the frontlines and roads of our country's Great Patriotic war of 1941-1945 against Hitler's invaders, numerous miracles are known to have occurred due to the fervid prayers of Orthodox Christians. Many of them were entered into a volume that came off the press in Moscow in 2004 - "Miracles on the roads of war". We shall acquaint you with several documentary narratives, taken from this volume. In our opinion today these stories can help present day Christians in various adversities, when it seems as if there is no way out.

"When the Great Patriotic war of our country against Hitler's invaders broke out, on June 22nd 1941, the Patriarch of Antioch Alexander III addressed Christians of the world with a message to pray for Russia's salvation. One of those to respond to this appeal was Metropolitan Ilya of the Lebanon Hills. This non-Russian person understood better than many others the significance of our Orthodox country for the rest of the world. Metropolitan Ilya decided to go into seclusion and pray to the Holy Virgin to show him a means of sending deliverance to Russia. He descended into a stone underground dwelling, where no sounds could reach him, and where there was nothing but the icon of the Holy Virgin. The Metropolitan abstained from food and drink, and stood on his knees praying all of the time...

Every morning they brought him fresh reports from the frontlines of the Great Patriotic war regarding the number of killed, and how far the enemy had advanced...

After three days of vigil metropolitan Ilya had a vision of the Holy Virgin in a pillar of fire, announcing that he'd been chosen by God to convey His message to the Russian people. If all these requests weren't met, Russia would perish.

The Lord's message, conveyed by The Holy Mother of God, said that Orthodox churches and monasteries, Seminaries and Theological Academies should be opened all across Russia. The clergy should be brought back from the frontlines and prisons so that they might start services. A Cross-bearing procession should walk around Leningrad (now St.Petersburg) with the Kazan icon of the Mother of God, so that the enemy under no circumstances seize this 'chosen' city. A service must be conducted in Moscow before the Kazan icon of the Mother of God, after which the icon should be sent to Stalingrad, which must likewise be defended at all cost. The Kazan icon should go with the troops to the very borders of Russia.

Metropolitan Ilya immediately got in touch with representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Soviet government and conveyed to them all that the Holy Virgin had revealed to him. Today our archives contain letters and telegrammes sent by Metropolitan Ilya to Moscow.

Stalin summoned the representatives of the Orthodox clergy and promised to fulfill all that was requested in the message conveyed by metropolitan Ilya. He saw no other possible way of saving the situation, since the country lacked the resources to contain the advancing enemy. Hitler's troops were just outside Moscow, and death and famine roamed our land.

In Leningrad, besieged by the Nazis, they brought the Kazan icon of the Mother of God out of the Vladimir Cathedral and walked around the entire city with it in a cross-bearing procession. The city held out and didn't surrender to the besieging Hitlerite army. Yet again, facts supported the truth of the words spoken by the Venerable Mitrofan of Voronezh, who said that a town named in honor of Apostle Peter had been chosen by the Holy Mother of God. While the Kazan icon of the Mother of God remained in the city and there were Christians praying, the enemy would never penetrate it.

The Holy Virgin interceded on Moscow's behalf, too. Right after the Kazan icon of the Mother of God was flown around Moscow on a plane, the Nazis fled from the city, as if driven by some panic terror, leaving behind the dead and broken weaponry. None of Hitler's generals could comprehend just what had happened: why their excellently equipped and trained troops, already flush up against Moscow, suddenly retreated.

Later, on the approaches to Stalingrad, the Kazan icon of the Mother of God was with our troops on the right bank of the Volga. People prayed before it incessantly... Hitler's troops never did manage to cross the river, despite all their efforts. There was a moment when the defenders of Stalingrad found themselves on a small patch of ground near the river, yet the Kazan icon was with them, and they stood firm."

Thus, with the revival of Orthodoxy in our country during the war, our army began to oust the Nazis from its own territory, and later - from the Hitler occupied European countries. Our army chased the invaders back to Berlin, where the Great Patriotic war and World War Two ended in May 1945.

Here is a testimony of our contemporary speaking of his relative who participated in the war:

"My Uncle had a vision of the Holy Mother of God during the war. This was during battles of the Kursk Bulge. The Holy Virgin appeared in the sky and pointed towards the Germans, as if directing our advance. The entire squadron saw Her. We all fell to our knees, believers and atheists alike. We prayed heartily to the Holy Mother of God... From that moment on our troops began to advance successfully. My Uncle, who was formerly an atheist, was transformed into an Orthodox believer."

And now, a story from ex-frontline serviceman Pyotr Polynov:

"The place where we sat in our trenches seemed very special... It was as if someone was helping us: the Nazis were attacking with superior forces, yet we kept rebuffing their onslaughts, and with surprisingly minor losses. However, the day I want to tell you about was an unlucky day. The battle was particularly fierce. The entire no-man's land was covered in dead bodies of both sides. The battle ceased only by sunset. We occupied ourselves as best as we could while waiting for supper to be brought.

I got out my tobacco pouch and sat smoking, while my countryman, Ivan Bozhkov walked to the side of the trench. Suddenly I saw him poking his head out of the trench.

"What are you doing?" I shouted to him. "Waiting to make some German sniper happy?"

Bozhkov knelt back into the trench. He looked odd... And then he said to me in a very quiet voice:

"Listen, there is a woman crying out there..."

"You're just hearing things," I told him. "What would a woman be doing here?"

However, when the shooting from the German side died down, we really did hear a woman crying. Bozhkov placed his helmet on and climbed out over the breastwork.

"The mist is really thick out there," he said to us, "and through the mist a woman is walking towards us across the no-man's land... She is bending down over the killed and weeping! My God! She is so like the Holy Virgin Mary... Fellows! The Lord has chosen us... a miracle is happening before our very eyes!.. A holy vision!.."

We carefully looked out of the trenches.

In the rolling mist, a woman was making her way across the strip of no-man's land. She was wearing long, dark robes... Bending down over the dead, she wept bitter tears for them...

Suddenly someone said: "Look! The Germans are watching the vision, too. See their helmets sticking out of the trenches... There is certainly something strange about this... Look how tall she is, twice as tall as an ordinary woman..."

My God, how she wept! It rent our hearts!...

While we were observing the vision, a strange thick mist engulfed most of the no-man's land. I thought to myself: "It's as if a shroud is covering the dead..." The Virgin suddenly stopped weeping, turned to face our trenches, and bowing in our direction, disappeared. Bozhkov said loudly: "The Mother of God bowed in our direction! It means victory shall be on our side!" And indeed, it was so.

And here is another story, narrated by a witness of the event.

On September 28th 1942 the occupant forces drove all the residents of the village of Rozhkovka, in Byelorussia to the edge of the settlement. 57 families - women, the old folks, and children - looked in horror at the gun barrels pointed at them. The translator unfolded a slip of paper bearing a swastika. It was an order to execute all residents of the village for corroborating with the partisans and shielding saboteurs. The villagers themselves dug a huge common grave for themselves. The grave grew bigger and bigger, and death - ever closer... "Lord save us! Holy Mother of God, have mercy on us!" they all prayed as one. Nothing short of a miracle could save them.

At the moment when it seemed it was hopeless, the image of the Virgin appeared in the sky.

It was seen by a German pilot. The Virgin was walking aross the Heavens with the Infant in her arms, as if walking on earth. He heard her voice, saying: "Find on the map the village Rozhkovka. Change your course and fly there! Stop the execution!"

According to witnesses, when the residents of Rozhkovka were ready to die, a German plane suddenly landed in the field. An officer jumped out, weighed down by orders of distinction, and shouted to the SS men:

"Do not shoot! In two days I'll bring you an order annulling the execution!"

Indeed, this order was delivered by the pilot in two days time, at noon. All the people were saved.

"A month later," recalls one resident of Rozhkovka, "the same German pilot brought an icon to our village and passed it over to us. He said the 'Madonna' (Our Heavenly Mother!) had been carved on a wooden board by a wounded soldier at his request. On that icon, the Holy Virgin was just as the German pilot had seen Her in the sky!

Decades have passed since the end of the war, yet the icon has never been restored - the colors shine brightly, as if just painted on over the carved image. The icon is self-renewing..."

In conclusion, yet another story of an eye-witness.

"At the time, we were living in Ukraine, not far from Kursk region. It was 1943. The frontline was very close. That was the time when preparations were underway for the celebrated battle of the Kursk Bulge. However, we had no notion of this then. Once, father came into our house and said: "Mother! Go out and see what's happening!.. You can go, too!" he addressed us, youngsters.

We all rushed outside. Father pointed to the sky and said: "Watch!" We looked up and saw a man walking across the sky! All the residents of the village saw it! Someone got some field-glasses. Through them we could clearly see a man in dark monk's robes, with grey hair, walking in the sky. He had a cross on his chest. He was walking and censing...

He walked like that for quite a long time.

Then the monk turned in the direction of Russia and gradually faded into a tiny black spot on the sky and disappeared.

This was right on the eve of the decisive tank battle near Prohorovka. I sometimes told people of this incident from my war-time childhood. Once I narrated it to some young fellows at work. A while later, they brought me the recollections of one general, a participant in the Kursk Battle, and I read an amazing thing there. It turns out that before the beginning of the battle there was a moment when the German tanks were all ready to advance, while ours had just been brought by rail, and were standing on the train platforms. All the Nazis had to do was drive up and fire right at the station in order to destroy all Soviet tanks. However, for some 40 minutes not one of the German tanks could start up! Without any visible reasons! This time was enough to unload our tanks and set them in battle order. Thus, there began the greatest tank battle in history, where we scored a decisive victory!

After reading this, I put two and two together and realized what my childhood vision on the eve of the battle had meant. As to the question just who it was walking in the sky with a censer that day, we got our answer from the now-deceased Father Superior of the Pskovo-Pechiorsk Monastery Father Alipiy (Voronov).

It transpired this had been St.Sergius of Radonezh, the Hegumen of the Russian Land. He interceded on our behalf in those direful days..."

[Mr Popodopolous]

Imagine how a messiah would be treated these days, the amount of investigation and scientific fact that would need to be established before anyone would take this seriously would be unheard of.

Been to or seen on the TV, St James Park in the last year or 2?

[Mr Popodopolous]

All joking aside, may have followed it for a bit when young, though not really through choice. Certainly don't follow any organised religion now though. Still, no way of 100% definitively proving the existence or disproving either way, I guess.

[annred]

I have to say your use of "Gods word" scares me.

It's a book at the end of the day, It was written many centuries ago, it's seen many changes through many languages. A religion is not what you need to live by, following a religion is something that keeps the people scared of living.

I believe any "higher being" doesn't want worshipping daily, maybe a nod and a wink in it's general direction now and again wouldn't go amiss but, spending everyday giving thanks to it and telling you to live by a book it never wrote?

No, live and let live, enjoy what you do, and when your time is up, what will be, will be. I can't see how a "God" would want it any other way, it gave you life, why would it stop you living it?

I agree with you. The only thing I would argue with is the statement that the bible has seen many changes over the centuries. Due to modern research the latest translations are very close to the original Aramaic and Greek texts.

[Philip Belgrave]

Interesting that you should mention Hitler and Stalin. Hitler accused Stalin's USSR of being Godless and Stalin - against Communist doctrine - ordered the re-opening of the Russian churches during the German onslaught. Most of Hitler's underlings were - apparently - Pagan. You might find the following text astonishing........

MIRACLES ON THE ROADS OF WAR

by Tatyana Shvetsova

On the frontlines and roads of our country's Great Patriotic war of 1941-1945 against Hitler's invaders, numerous miracles are known to have occurred due to the fervid prayers of Orthodox Christians. Many of them were entered into a volume that came off the press in Moscow in 2004 - "Miracles on the roads of war". We shall acquaint you with several documentary narratives, taken from this volume. In our opinion today these stories can help present day Christians in various adversities, when it seems as if there is no way out.

"When the Great Patriotic war of our country against Hitler's invaders broke out, on June 22nd 1941, the Patriarch of Antioch Alexander III addressed Christians of the world with a message to pray for Russia's salvation. One of those to respond to this appeal was Metropolitan Ilya of the Lebanon Hills. This non-Russian person understood better than many others the significance of our Orthodox country for the rest of the world. Metropolitan Ilya decided to go into seclusion and pray to the Holy Virgin to show him a means of sending deliverance to Russia. He descended into a stone underground dwelling, where no sounds could reach him, and where there was nothing but the icon of the Holy Virgin. The Metropolitan abstained from food and drink, and stood on his knees praying all of the time...

Every morning they brought him fresh reports from the frontlines of the Great Patriotic war regarding the number of killed, and how far the enemy had advanced...

After three days of vigil metropolitan Ilya had a vision of the Holy Virgin in a pillar of fire, announcing that he'd been chosen by God to convey His message to the Russian people. If all these requests weren't met, Russia would perish.

The Lord's message, conveyed by The Holy Mother of God, said that Orthodox churches and monasteries, Seminaries and Theological Academies should be opened all across Russia. The clergy should be brought back from the frontlines and prisons so that they might start services. A Cross-bearing procession should walk around Leningrad (now St.Petersburg) with the Kazan icon of the Mother of God, so that the enemy under no circumstances seize this 'chosen' city. A service must be conducted in Moscow before the Kazan icon of the Mother of God, after which the icon should be sent to Stalingrad, which must likewise be defended at all cost. The Kazan icon should go with the troops to the very borders of Russia.

Metropolitan Ilya immediately got in touch with representatives of the Russian Orthodox Church and the Soviet government and conveyed to them all that the Holy Virgin had revealed to him. Today our archives contain letters and telegrammes sent by Metropolitan Ilya to Moscow.

Stalin summoned the representatives of the Orthodox clergy and promised to fulfill all that was requested in the message conveyed by metropolitan Ilya. He saw no other possible way of saving the situation, since the country lacked the resources to contain the advancing enemy. Hitler's troops were just outside Moscow, and death and famine roamed our land.

In Leningrad, besieged by the Nazis, they brought the Kazan icon of the Mother of God out of the Vladimir Cathedral and walked around the entire city with it in a cross-bearing procession. The city held out and didn't surrender to the besieging Hitlerite army. Yet again, facts supported the truth of the words spoken by the Venerable Mitrofan of Voronezh, who said that a town named in honor of Apostle Peter had been chosen by the Holy Mother of God. While the Kazan icon of the Mother of God remained in the city and there were Christians praying, the enemy would never penetrate it.

The Holy Virgin interceded on Moscow's behalf, too. Right after the Kazan icon of the Mother of God was flown around Moscow on a plane, the Nazis fled from the city, as if driven by some panic terror, leaving behind the dead and broken weaponry. None of Hitler's generals could comprehend just what had happened: why their excellently equipped and trained troops, already flush up against Moscow, suddenly retreated.

Later, on the approaches to Stalingrad, the Kazan icon of the Mother of God was with our troops on the right bank of the Volga. People prayed before it incessantly... Hitler's troops never did manage to cross the river, despite all their efforts. There was a moment when the defenders of Stalingrad found themselves on a small patch of ground near the river, yet the Kazan icon was with them, and they stood firm."

Thus, with the revival of Orthodoxy in our country during the war, our army began to oust the Nazis from its own territory, and later - from the Hitler occupied European countries. Our army chased the invaders back to Berlin, where the Great Patriotic war and World War Two ended in May 1945.

Here is a testimony of our contemporary speaking of his relative who participated in the war:

"My Uncle had a vision of the Holy Mother of God during the war. This was during battles of the Kursk Bulge. The Holy Virgin appeared in the sky and pointed towards the Germans, as if directing our advance. The entire squadron saw Her. We all fell to our knees, believers and atheists alike. We prayed heartily to the Holy Mother of God... From that moment on our troops began to advance successfully. My Uncle, who was formerly an atheist, was transformed into an Orthodox believer."

And now, a story from ex-frontline serviceman Pyotr Polynov:

"The place where we sat in our trenches seemed very special... It was as if someone was helping us: the Nazis were attacking with superior forces, yet we kept rebuffing their onslaughts, and with surprisingly minor losses. However, the day I want to tell you about was an unlucky day. The battle was particularly fierce. The entire no-man's land was covered in dead bodies of both sides. The battle ceased only by sunset. We occupied ourselves as best as we could while waiting for supper to be brought.

I got out my tobacco pouch and sat smoking, while my countryman, Ivan Bozhkov walked to the side of the trench. Suddenly I saw him poking his head out of the trench.

"What are you doing?" I shouted to him. "Waiting to make some German sniper happy?"

Bozhkov knelt back into the trench. He looked odd... And then he said to me in a very quiet voice:

"Listen, there is a woman crying out there..."

"You're just hearing things," I told him. "What would a woman be doing here?"

However, when the shooting from the German side died down, we really did hear a woman crying. Bozhkov placed his helmet on and climbed out over the breastwork.

"The mist is really thick out there," he said to us, "and through the mist a woman is walking towards us across the no-man's land... She is bending down over the killed and weeping! My God! She is so like the Holy Virgin Mary... Fellows! The Lord has chosen us... a miracle is happening before our very eyes!.. A holy vision!.."

We carefully looked out of the trenches.

In the rolling mist, a woman was making her way across the strip of no-man's land. She was wearing long, dark robes... Bending down over the dead, she wept bitter tears for them...

Suddenly someone said: "Look! The Germans are watching the vision, too. See their helmets sticking out of the trenches... There is certainly something strange about this... Look how tall she is, twice as tall as an ordinary woman..."

My God, how she wept! It rent our hearts!...

While we were observing the vision, a strange thick mist engulfed most of the no-man's land. I thought to myself: "It's as if a shroud is covering the dead..." The Virgin suddenly stopped weeping, turned to face our trenches, and bowing in our direction, disappeared. Bozhkov said loudly: "The Mother of God bowed in our direction! It means victory shall be on our side!" And indeed, it was so.

And here is another story, narrated by a witness of the event.

On September 28th 1942 the occupant forces drove all the residents of the village of Rozhkovka, in Byelorussia to the edge of the settlement. 57 families - women, the old folks, and children - looked in horror at the gun barrels pointed at them. The translator unfolded a slip of paper bearing a swastika. It was an order to execute all residents of the village for corroborating with the partisans and shielding saboteurs. The villagers themselves dug a huge common grave for themselves. The grave grew bigger and bigger, and death - ever closer... "Lord save us! Holy Mother of God, have mercy on us!" they all prayed as one. Nothing short of a miracle could save them.

At the moment when it seemed it was hopeless, the image of the Virgin appeared in the sky.

It was seen by a German pilot. The Virgin was walking aross the Heavens with the Infant in her arms, as if walking on earth. He heard her voice, saying: "Find on the map the village Rozhkovka. Change your course and fly there! Stop the execution!"

According to witnesses, when the residents of Rozhkovka were ready to die, a German plane suddenly landed in the field. An officer jumped out, weighed down by orders of distinction, and shouted to the SS men:

"Do not shoot! In two days I'll bring you an order annulling the execution!"

Indeed, this order was delivered by the pilot in two days time, at noon. All the people were saved.

"A month later," recalls one resident of Rozhkovka, "the same German pilot brought an icon to our village and passed it over to us. He said the 'Madonna' (Our Heavenly Mother!) had been carved on a wooden board by a wounded soldier at his request. On that icon, the Holy Virgin was just as the German pilot had seen Her in the sky!

Decades have passed since the end of the war, yet the icon has never been restored - the colors shine brightly, as if just painted on over the carved image. The icon is self-renewing..."

In conclusion, yet another story of an eye-witness.

"At the time, we were living in Ukraine, not far from Kursk region. It was 1943. The frontline was very close. That was the time when preparations were underway for the celebrated battle of the Kursk Bulge. However, we had no notion of this then. Once, father came into our house and said: "Mother! Go out and see what's happening!.. You can go, too!" he addressed us, youngsters.

We all rushed outside. Father pointed to the sky and said: "Watch!" We looked up and saw a man walking across the sky! All the residents of the village saw it! Someone got some field-glasses. Through them we could clearly see a man in dark monk's robes, with grey hair, walking in the sky. He had a cross on his chest. He was walking and censing...

He walked like that for quite a long time.

Then the monk turned in the direction of Russia and gradually faded into a tiny black spot on the sky and disappeared.

This was right on the eve of the decisive tank battle near Prohorovka. I sometimes told people of this incident from my war-time childhood. Once I narrated it to some young fellows at work. A while later, they brought me the recollections of one general, a participant in the Kursk Battle, and I read an amazing thing there. It turns out that before the beginning of the battle there was a moment when the German tanks were all ready to advance, while ours had just been brought by rail, and were standing on the train platforms. All the Nazis had to do was drive up and fire right at the station in order to destroy all Soviet tanks. However, for some 40 minutes not one of the German tanks could start up! Without any visible reasons! This time was enough to unload our tanks and set them in battle order. Thus, there began the greatest tank battle in history, where we scored a decisive victory!

After reading this, I put two and two together and realized what my childhood vision on the eve of the battle had meant. As to the question just who it was walking in the sky with a censer that day, we got our answer from the now-deceased Father Superior of the Pskovo-Pechiorsk Monastery Father Alipiy (Voronov).

It transpired this had been St.Sergius of Radonezh, the Hegumen of the Russian Land. He interceded on our behalf in those direful days..."

Trust the Red Goblin to come up with a worthwhile contribution to what is a sadly predictable debate.

These accounts are very similar to "The Angel of Mons" phenomenon of 1914, when the BEF was reportedly aided against von Kluck's advancing Prussians by supernatural forces. The legend persisted despite- of course- being dismssed by the rationalists.

[Mr Mosquito]

Trust the Red Goblin to come up with a worthwhile contribution to what is a sadly predictable debate.

These accounts are very similar to "The Angel of Mons" phenomenon of 1914, when the BEF was reportedly aided against von Kluck's advancing Prussians by supernatural forces. The legend persisted despite- of course- being dismssed by the rationalists.

The world does not always work in a 'rational way'. Some use religious theory, some use chaos theory, some use quantum mechanics theory etc to explain this. Do you believe in ghosts?