Religion

[southy354]

The world does not always work in a 'rational way'. Some use religious theory, some use chaos theory, some use quantum mechanics theory etc to explain this. Do you believe in ghosts?

I think you're mixing up the world with people. There won't be ghosts wished into existence because people are really religious. There's only the physical, based on current evidence.

[annred]

Trust the Red Goblin to come up with a worthwhile contribution to what is a sadly predictable debate.

These accounts are very similar to "The Angel of Mons" phenomenon of 1914, when the BEF was reportedly aided against von Kluck's advancing Prussians by supernatural forces. The legend persisted despite- of course- being dismssed by the rationalists.

My father's neighbour was at the Battle of Mons in 1914. He insisted that he saw the image of an angel in tears. The sight of this image stopped soldiers from both sides fighting.Unfortunately the stoppage was only temporary and millions of lives were lost in the next three years. You have to try and keep an open mind about these stories if you were not there to view it yourself.

[Philip Belgrave]

The world does not always work in a 'rational way'. Some use religious theory, some use chaos theory, some use quantum mechanics theory etc to explain this. Do you believe in ghosts?

Good question, Not in the traditional moaning, rattling chains, Dickensian -type Ghost (although then again- how would I know ?).

But certainly I believe that certain places possess" atmosphere", nothing tangible, nothing that can be seen, heard, smelt, touched or tasted and yet there is....something.

The results over an overactive imagination, overindulgence in grog perhaps ? -Dunno.

But , certainly ,not everything can be explained away rationally and I believe that we are at the kindergarten-level in our understanding of so much.

[Mr Mosquito]

Good question, Not in the traditional moaning, rattling chains, Dickensian -type Ghost (although then again- how would I know ?).

But certainly I believe that certain places possess" atmosphere", nothing tangible, nothing that can be seen, heard, smelt, touched or tasted and yet there is....something.

The results over an overactive imagination, overindulgence in grog perhaps ? -Dunno.

But , certainly ,not everything can be explained away rationally and I believe that we are at the kindergarten-level in our understanding of so much.

Ghosts and ghost sightings run through the history of every human culture. As annred wrote as well, apparitions are often reported as being seen in the midst of battles. It's not surprising that people are religious as where were we before we were born and where will we go after? - Not in the physical sense but in the ethereal sense.

[southy354]

Ghosts and ghost sightings run through the history of every human culture. As annred wrote as well, apparitions are often reported as being seen in the midst of battles. It's not surprising that people are religious as where were we before we were born and where will we go after? - Not in the physical sense but in the ethereal sense.

We didn't exist before, won't exist after. The soul and mind are just problems in language, which only really describe the brain.

[Mr Mosquito]

We didn't exist before, won't exist after. The soul and mind are just problems in language, which only really describe the brain.

I prefer to believe that there's more to it than that.

[Philip Belgrave]

We didn't exist before, won't exist after. The soul and mind are just problems in language, which only really describe the brain.

Prove it.

[southy354]

Prove it.

Prove a negative? No thanks. Also, just because it hasn't been proven to be false, doesn't mean it is true.

It's not a verifiable statement, as we won't ever know what happens after we die. Just from personal experience, I didn't exist before I was born. There isn't enough understanding of the brain yet, but I believe it is all physical, as I can't see how something non physical would interact with the physical.

[Philip Belgrave]

Prove a negative? No thanks. Also, just because it hasn't been proven to be false, doesn't mean it is true.

It's not a verifiable statement, as we won't ever know what happens after we die. Just from personal experience, I didn't exist before I was born. There isn't enough understanding of the brain yet, but I believe it is all physical, as I can't see how something non physical would interact with the physical.

If we don't know what happens when we die then how can you logically assert that nothing happens ?

There was no doubt, no speculation ,in your statement but certainty- what's your evidence ? Just because you (or I, for that matter) can't fathom what happens- if anything, it's no proof that nothing does.

[southy354]

If we don't know what happens when we die then how can you logically assert that nothing happens ?

There was no doubt, no speculation ,in your statement but certainty- what's your evidence ? Just because you (or I, for that matter) can't fathom what happens- if anything, it's no proof that nothing does.

If the brain is all there is, which is what I believe. Then from that premise I can come to the logical conclusion that nothing happens when you die.

[Philip Belgrave]

If the brain is all there is, which is what I believe. Then from that premise I can come to the logical conclusion that nothing happens when you die.

How can you arrive at a "logical conclusion" when you begin with an "If" ? If that is what you believe then it's faith ,not logic.

All premises must be supported with empirical evidence or else they remain merely speculation.

Yes ,the brain is a wonderful and mysterious organ:- God given, some would say- but how do you know that," the brain is all there is ?"

[southy354]

How can you arrive at a "logical conclusion" when you begin with an "If" ? If that is what you believe then it's faith ,not logic.

All premises must be supported with empirical evidence or else they remain merely speculation.

Yes ,the brain is a wonderful and mysterious organ:- God given, some would say- but how do you know that," the brain is all there is ?"

Prove it is God given, the onus is on you to prove there is a God, as worshipping the flying spaghetti monster has just as much reason to it. As I can't disprove the FSM.

Based on the empirical evidence so far, the brain is all there is. I can't know it, neither can religion.

[annred]

Prove it is God given, the onus is on you to prove there is a God, as worshipping the flying spaghetti monster has just as much reason to it. As I can't disprove the FSM.

Based on the empirical evidence so far, the brain is all there is. I can't know it, neither can religion.

What evidence? The only evidence is the fact that there is no evidence .But we cannot deny that people have believed in one God for at least 4000 years. That of course is no sort of proof but it shows that it cannot be dismissed out of hand.

[Philip Belgrave]

Prove it is God given, the onus is on you to prove there is a God, as worshipping the flying spaghetti monster has just as much reason to it. As I can't disprove the FSM.

Based on the empirical evidence so far, the brain is all there is. I can't know it, neither can religion.

Agreed -I can't ; ,which is why I am in no position to that to make categorical statements, one way or the other.

It's only people of faith , like yourself, who feel moved to do that.

[The Man In Black]

I'm an atheist who abhors the claims that without religion all society would crumble. Why? Does not having a religion make you an immoral person?

That said, I don't impress my views on anyone unless drawn into a religious debate. The only time I'm really vocal is on matters where religion interferes with the running of the country. This happens everywhere, and in my opinion the state and religion should be completely separate, as should the education and religion.

In short, if you want to believe in a religion, good for you, go for it. I'm honestly happy that you've got some faith in something. But there's no need for it to be given a priority status in modern life, as it currently gets.

Incidentally, on the scale above I'm "very low probability, but short of zero". This is the same as many prominent atheists, including Richard Dawkins. Yes, there's some unknowns out there, but that doesn't automatically mean they were created by a deity. A few hundred years ago we didn't know what planted us on the ground.

What I would say is - what proof is there that there is a god? Many believers will say to an atheist "well, what proof do you have that there isn't?" But why should all the burden of proof be on us? It works both ways. This is where many religious believers slink away, mumbling something about history, or science.

The only real argument I've heard is because of the complexity that makes life, and the fact that we seem so well suited to the conditions. This has actually been "explained" if you wish to agree with the explanation, and a great introduction to it is in Bill Bryson's "A Short History of Nearly Everything". Basically, because we've evolved over millions of years to where we are today, it looks amazing. But if the air was filled with a different concentration of oxygen we would have evolved differently. And as somebody else said, maybe there's dimensions where things happened differently. Or maybe this isn't the first universe, and the others weren't successful.

Who knows?

But without scientific endeavour, we will never know.

Please, I implore everyone, believe what you want. But respect the beliefs of others. And don't believe that without your religion dictating society everything would crumble. Do you really think that morning assemblies in schools are necessary? Do they really add value to our children? (Many of whom don't even have religious parents).

Especially when there is as much evidence of there being a god as there is of there being a flying spaghetti monster.

[southy354]

Agreed -I can't ; ,which is why I am in no position to that to make categorical statements, one way or the other.

It's only people of faith , like yourself, who feel moved to do that.

Faith is completely different to scientific method. If I've used statements that come across as facts, then that's a problem in my wording, not in my line of thoughts.

I also believe that, you're mixing up the terms belief and faith. Faith is belief without evidence, whereas my claims have empirical evidence to back them up. As our increasing knowledge of the brain is showing that it is more predictable than previously thought.

[Philip Belgrave]

Faith is completely different to scientific method. If I've used statements that come across as facts, then that's a problem in my wording, not in my line of thoughts.

I also believe that, you're mixing up the terms belief and faith. Faith is belief without evidence, whereas my claims have empirical evidence to back them up. As our increasing knowledge of the brain is showing that it is more predictable than previously thought.

My point exactly: where's the scientific method to support your assertions ? "Empirical evidence'? great!- Give us some.

You are a man of faith because you believe in a particular position without solid evidence. (not that there's anything wrong with that but don't try to pass your opinions off as incontestible proof).

Incidently ,the subject obviously means a lot to you, hence your persistance. Have you asked yourself why?

You seem as committed to your position as the most devout Christian.

Ever thought of being ordained ?

[southy354]

My point exactly: where's the scientific method to support your assertions ? "Empirical evidence'? great!- Give us some.

You are a man of faith because you believe in a particular position without solid evidence. (not that there's anything wrong with that but don't try to pass your opinions off as incontestible proof).

Incidently ,the subject obviously means a lot to you, hence your persistance. Have you asked yourself why?

You seem as committed to your position as the most devout Christian.

Ever thought of being ordained ?

Uhh, not worth any effort. Too bored.

[Philip Belgrave]

Uhh, not worth any effort. Too bored.

And may have been one of the great evangelists of the age.

Still, you might still have a Paul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus-type conversion. renounce your former godless ways and hit Bristol like a 21st.century John Wesley.

Mark my words !

[southy354]

And may have been one of the great evangelists of the age.

Still, you might still have a Paul of Tarsus on the way to Damascus-type conversion. renounce your former godless ways and hit Bristol like a 21st.century John Wesley.

Mark my words !

Stop fishing. It's partly hilarious/partly dull.

I think you're mixing up concepts that are argued for and the style of argument used.

A football manager has the same conviction in his belief that 4-4-2 is the best way to go, he must be a Christian using your argument.

[gater2]

Really interesting discussion, and one I've had about a million times being a theology student!

The question of suffering is interesting, as I see a lot of you have mentioned in argument agains God, but let me turn it on it's head: What about all the joy, happiness, hope and love in the world? I am a Christian, and I would find it very hard to have any hope for the future if I didn't believe God existed. If, ultimately, we are just a bunch of atoms put together randomly, how is it that we can feel such strong emotions such as love, or hurt. If anyone has ever had a child been born or seeing a long lost friend you haven't seen for ages, and the intense joy that comes with it, how can that be if there's no God?

Also with regard to the suffering problem: if there's no God, if we're just a bunch of atoms, then pain and suffering isn't a problem any more? Why should it be? Everything's random anyway! You're lucky if you have a life without much pain, but for those who have it, then hard luck, there's no greater power to ensure justice will be done or that things might change. This doesn't fit in with what I see in humanity: there is too much hope that things will change for this to be the case, and I don't believe there's any ultimate foundation of this apart from God.

Finally: atheists have faith themselves and I don't think this can be argued. You cannot PROVE God doesn't exist, just as you can't PROVE God exists, so atheists effectively have FAITH that God doesn't exist.

[gater2]

[Mr Mosquito]

Really interesting discussion, and one I've had about a million times being a theology student!

As a theologian have you asked yourself the deep religious question "what the hell am I doing here?" - I mean on a football message board.

Anyway, part of the problem with the church these days seems that they've become too secular and don't reach out as much to the public as they used to. I went on holiday to Jamaica during the summer and they've got their own Christian TV channel as well as the broadcasts from the 'Bible belt' of America. There are little churches and chapels - of various denominations - everywhere just as used to be in this country years ago.

Another problem that's turned people against the Christian religion is the way it's been hijacked by this country's ruling classes (Toffs) for their own gain. Our legal system is set up via our taxes as a cash cow for Toff lawyers to milk. The Toffs 'legitimize' their legal system court scams by bringing in religion via making people swear on the Bible.

[gater2]

As a theologian have you asked yourself the deep religious question "what the hell am I doing here?" - I mean on a football message board.

I think the two definitely aren't mutually exclusive! I'm pretty sure Martin Luther liked his cider (and therefore would have been a City fan had he been born a few centuries later) and I think the Pope goes to few football matches.. although I don't think the Vatican has a team..

Anyway, part of the problem with the church these days seems that they've become too secular and don't reach out as much to the public as they used to. I went on holiday to Jamaica during the summer and they've got their own Christian TV channel as well as the broadcasts from the 'Bible belt' of America. There are little churches and chapels - of various denominations - everywhere just as used to be in this country years ago.

Another problem that's turned people against the Christian religion is the way it's been hijacked by this country's ruling classes (Toffs) for their own gain. Our legal system is set up via our taxes as a cash cow for Toff lawyers to milk. The Toffs 'legitimize' their legal system court scams by bringing in religion via making people swear on the Bible.

Those are fair points, and I completely agree that a lot of the church has become corrupt and not doing a lot of good. At the same time I think you need to know where to look. I, for example, go to a Salvation Army church in north London and you certainly couldn't say anyone there was 'ruling class'. It's right next to a council estate where the church is very involved in the community, and my fiancee and I are moving in there in March when we get married. I think there's also a growing realisation in the Church that we might just have to take what Jesus said a little more seriously rather than argue it away with interpretations, and there's quite a lot of scathing stuff in there about the rich..! Also rather than Christianity being some abstract, irrelevant thing for real life, it can have something to say to the world in the 21st century.

I think a lot of the criticism of the church is warranted, but people tend to highlight the bad bits and not look at the good. There is a lot of misconception around the church. If anyone is interested in (what I think) is a more genuine form of church and faith, do look at the links on my signature. As the youtube video says: we all have questions, we just need a place to ask them. I know a lot of people who have gone on an Alpha course and have enjoyed it (not necessarly 'become a Christian' after it, but found it really good to voice frustrations and ask questions they want to ask). There are a lot of Alpha courses in Bristol.

[Mr Mosquito]

I think the two definitely aren't mutually exclusive! I'm pretty sure Martin Luther liked his cider (and therefore would have been a City fan had he been born a few centuries later) and I think the Pope goes to few football matches.. although I don't think the Vatican has a team..

Those are fair points, and I completely agree that a lot of the church has become corrupt and not doing a lot of good. At the same time I think you need to know where to look. I, for example, go to a Salvation Army church in north London and you certainly couldn't say anyone there was 'ruling class'. It's right next to a council estate where the church is very involved in the community, and my fiancee and I are moving in there in March when we get married. I think there's also a growing realisation in the Church that we might just have to take what Jesus said a little more seriously rather than argue it away with interpretations, and there's quite a lot of scathing stuff in there about the rich..! Also rather than Christianity being some abstract, irrelevant thing for real life, it can have something to say to the world in the 21st century.

I think a lot of the criticism of the church is warranted, but people tend to highlight the bad bits and not look at the good. There is a lot of misconception around the church. If anyone is interested in (what I think) is a more genuine form of church and faith, do look at the links on my signature. As the youtube video says: we all have questions, we just need a place to ask them. I know a lot of people who have gone on an Alpha course and have enjoyed it (not necessarly 'become a Christian' after it, but found it really good to voice frustrations and ask questions they want to ask). There are a lot of Alpha courses in Bristol.

Mine's not a criticism of our churches but of the type of people that have hijacked the church and Bible teachings for their own personal gain - i.e. the ruling classes (Toffs). The best example is the corrupt class based and Toff ridden legal system of this country that 'legitimizes' their operation via Christian religion. Why do they make people declare their religion and then make them swear on the Bible? Surely these expensively trained and educated lawyer Toffs should know when someone is lying or not without bringing the Bible into the equation? I'm wondering what Jesus would have said about the legal system that often morally and ethically blights our land.

[southy354]

Really interesting discussion, and one I've had about a million times being a theology student!

The question of suffering is interesting, as I see a lot of you have mentioned in argument agains God, but let me turn it on it's head: What about all the joy, happiness, hope and love in the world? I am a Christian, and I would find it very hard to have any hope for the future if I didn't believe God existed. If, ultimately, we are just a bunch of atoms put together randomly, how is it that we can feel such strong emotions such as love, or hurt. If anyone has ever had a child been born or seeing a long lost friend you haven't seen for ages, and the intense joy that comes with it, how can that be if there's no God?

I'm really not sure how that is an argument for a God. The two extremes are both through social values and the conditioning that goes with it. If we are just a bunch of atoms, then emergent qualities arise out of it that come to what we call feelings.

Also with regard to the suffering problem: if there's no God, if we're just a bunch of atoms, then pain and suffering isn't a problem any more? Why should it be? Everything's random anyway! You're lucky if you have a life without much pain, but for those who have it, then hard luck, there's no greater power to ensure justice will be done or that things might change. This doesn't fit in with what I see in humanity: there is too much hope that things will change for this to be the case, and I don't believe there's any ultimate foundation of this apart from God.

Why would pain and suffering not be a problem if there was no God? It's based on the societies view of what is right and wrong, this changes quite frequently. Also, the justice of the action is based on the current government and society, the culture of the country also matters in this case. There would still be change and advancement in society, through science and understanding.

Finally: atheists have faith themselves and I don't think this can be argued. You cannot PROVE God doesn't exist, just as you can't PROVE God exists, so atheists effectively have FAITH that God doesn't exist.

[Mr Mosquito]

If we are just a bunch of atoms, then emergent qualities arise out of it that come to what we call feelings.

OK, we're no more than a collection of atoms but forces such as gravity, magnetism, weak nuclear forces, electrical energy etc etc influence those atoms. Who's to say that some higher being or whatever does not influence those atoms as well ???!!!!

[southy354]

OK, we're no more than a collection of atoms but forces such as gravity, magnetism, weak nuclear forces, electrical energy etc etc influence those atoms. Who's to say that some higher being or whatever does not influence those atoms as well ???!!!!

Would an absent God, make life any better or change anything? As these physical rules would be constant, so he would just click his fingers at/for the big bang and that would be it.

There also wouldn't really be a reason to worship that God as everything would be set out for you.

[Philip Belgrave]

Stop fishing. It's partly hilarious/partly dull.

I think you're mixing up concepts that are argued for and the style of argument used.

A football manager has the same conviction in his belief that 4-4-2 is the best way to go, he must be a Christian using your argument.

Fishing? Didnt Christ say to St Peter, "I shall make thee a Fisher of Men ?"

This world is full of smartarses who think they have all the answers:- you only have to read this forum.

I suggest a way for you to rise above the cr*p ,make a sure-fire mark on the world and you respond with a mundane rejection.

"Part Hilarious/partly dull" you say- and you accuse ME of muddled thinking ! How in God's name (sorry, sorry!) did you get the idea that someone with a belief- any belief- must therefore a Christian. Please quote me where I've made such a suggestion.

[Mr Mosquito]

Would an absent God, make life any better or change anything? As these physical rules would be constant, so he would just click his fingers at/for the big bang and that would be it.

There also wouldn't really be a reason to worship that God as everything would be set out for you.

Let me put it another way, would it not be possible for the Universe to have a living consciousness with you and me being part of that consciousness?