BCFC_Beaks Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Lee Johnson has been an excellent player for us. I would say that if he hadn't got injured v Watford in feb of our play off season then we would have gone up automatically. A lot of city fans can't see past daddys son syndrome... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pete1975Legend Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Another comment from their forum 'yes, i was a bit undecided wether johnson was any good, but i am happily suprised , i think he,s doing a great job for us .' I really hope he comes back to us personally and not staying there.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
windmillhillred Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Ever thought that he played shit because of so called supporters like yourself? His own fans on his back every time he makes a mistakes.... Look at Cole Skuse, he often makes mistakes, sometimes quite often - look at the cardiff game - he was shocking - but he'll bounce back like he always does, partly due to the great support he gets..... Absolutely. The standard required of Johnson was at least twice what a large minority of idiots expected frrom Hartley, Sno, Skuse, Elliott etc. It's a shame that a collection of morons have most likely forces out of the club a very decent player for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DanC Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Ever thought that he played shit because of so called supporters like yourself? His own fans on his back every time he makes a mistakes.... Look at Cole Skuse, he often makes mistakes, sometimes quite often - look at the cardiff game - he was shocking - but he'll bounce back like he always does, partly due to the great support he gets..... I never slag a player off duriing a game, Everyone says do it after the game but then you get shot down when you do that by the happy clappers. Prozone lies my eyes don't. When Hartley gets 'rested' for LJ then you know something is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cheese Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I never slag a player off duriing a game, Everyone says do it after the game but then you get shot down when you do that by the happy clappers. Prozone lies my eyes don't. When Hartley gets 'rested' for LJ then you know something is up. Your eyes see what you want to see. As for prozone, there seems to be a myth on here that it picks the team - I'd like to see the evidence for that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman-is-god Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Well a lot of what you've said could also be levelled at Brian Tinnion especially the scoring, but apparently he's a 'legend'. Did you watch City between 2000 and 2004, the time in which Tinnion's delivery and vision was arguably as good as anyone we have seen at the Gate? How many of Murray's 26 goals was he directly responsible for? The man was a legend, and after he moved into central midfield he was an absolute revelation. Totally and utterly different from LJ, and a true legend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Did you watch City between 2000 and 2004, the time in which Tinnion's delivery and vision was arguably as good as anyone we have seen at the Gate? How many of Murray's 26 goals was he directly responsible for? The man was a legend, and after he moved into central midfield he was an absolute revelation. Totally and utterly different from LJ, and a true legend. Yes 4 years of pretty much abject failure, play off misery, I nearly forgot the cup for the teams in the bottom 2 leagues, But yes 1 good scoring season for Murray. An all round legend for you, A loyal and very good lower league player for me, Who scored a legendary goal at Anfield. I have heard all of the arguments about his ability to play at a higher level, well we'll never know. I know to many my view on Tinnion 'the player' maybe considered heresy, but it's my opinion, as is yours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I never slag a player off duriing a game, Everyone says do it after the game but then you get shot down when you do that by the happy clappers. Prozone lies my eyes don't. When Hartley gets 'rested' for LJ then you know something is up. Pro Zone doesn't Lie - Pro Zone only deals in facts! how much distance a player covers how many passes a player makes how many time a player is involved in a goal scoring move Non of these things can be lies - they can only be used to backup or discredit opinion which is how GJ uses them because there is of course nothing that can replace watching a game. saying Prozone lies just goes to show how ignorant you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tinman-is-god Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Yes 4 years of pretty much abject failure, play off misery, I nearly forgot the cup for the teams in the bottom 2 leagues, But yes 1 good scoring season for Murray. An all round legend for you, A loyal and very good lower league player for me, Who scored a legendary goal at Anfield. I have heard all of the arguments about his ability to play at a higher level, well we'll never know. I know to many my view on Tinnion 'the player' maybe considered heresy, but it's my opinion, as is yours. I don't think its fair to let the 4 years of misery affect your judgement of whether or not he is a club legend or his effectiveness on the pitch, were it not for him those 4 years would have been considerably more abject without him. It is indeed a game of opinions and we all see the game differently, and I know of a fair few City fans who have voiced your opinion, but I do have to say that I completely disagree! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 For a lot those who have only been watching since 1990 ish Tinnion is a legend. He was our most loyal and best player of the era, and passionate to boot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 For a lot those who have only been watching since 1990 ish Tinnion is a legend. He was our most loyal and best player of the era, and passionate to boot. Well put and correct. Older fans may feel differently, but tinnion played for city for most of my city-supporting life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DanC Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Tinnion and Bell what a combination that was! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Tinnion and Bell what a combination that was! Over-rated IMO. Tinnion and Barnard was the real deal. Bell was very good though Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redrebel Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Lee Johnson has been an excellent player for us. I would say that if he hadn't got injured v Watford in feb of our play off season then we would have gone up automatically. A lot of city fans can't see past daddys son syndrome... I would say that , that is complete and utter rubbish and shows just how stupid the LJ debate has become.And is an insult to the players in that season that really did make a difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I would say that , that is complete and utter rubbish and shows just how stupid the LJ debate has become.And is an insult to the players in that season that really did make a difference. FACTS are FACTS. When he got injured we dropped down the league. he played most of the first 38 games and we were top (or 2nd) He may not be the only reason we dropped down the league, but its fair to say we missed him... I dont think thats an insult to anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest DanC Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 FACTS are FACTS. When he got injured we dropped down the league. he played most of the first 38 games and we were top (or 2nd) He may not be the only reason we dropped down the league, but its fair to say we missed him... I dont think thats an insult to anyone. I agreed at the time and still do now, However I think now it was more of we had a lack of central midfielders back then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 I don't think its fair to let the 4 years of misery affect your judgement of whether or not he is a club legend or his effectiveness on the pitch, were it not for him those 4 years would have been considerably more abject without him. It is indeed a game of opinions and we all see the game differently, and I know of a fair few City fans who have voiced your opinion, but I do have to say that I completely disagree! An average of 3 goals per season (over 12 years), his free kicks were generally woeful, I also seem to remember a lot criticism on this forum about lack of goals from corners during this period and who used to take our corners. That is why as a so called creative midfielder with a left foot that could do magic, I cannot put him into my team of legends. I do agree with your first sentence though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
red colin Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Pro Zone doesn't Lie - Pro Zone only deals in facts! how much distance a player covers how many passes a player makes how many time a player is involved in a goal scoring move Non of these things can be lies - they can only be used to backup or discredit opinion which is how GJ uses them because there is of course nothing that can replace watching a game. saying Prozone lies just goes to show how ignorant you are. so stats dont lie....crime is down .less people out of work. hmm stats can read any way you want . lee passes 10 balls back 1 forward 8 sideways . going nowhere .. hartley 1 ball forward splits defence we score but stats say lee more involved come on .. eyes open dont look at stats watch the games. gordon brown Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tunley Legend Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Lee Johnson is obviously not as good as the likes of Skuse and Hartley (otherwise he wouldn't be up at Derby would he?). Hopefully he will continue to do a job for Derby and they will sign him on. That will free up wages for us in positions where we have far less cover and I also happen to think it would be the best career move for Lee Johnson himself. Playing a whole career, more or less, for your Dad cannot be healthy for anyone. Even LJ's current Manager moved away from the old man in the end - and nobody at Forest thought he was given a "bye" into the side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kingswood red Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 so stats dont lie....crime is down .less people out of work. hmm stats can read any way you want . lee passes 10 balls back 1 forward 8 sideways . going nowhere .. hartley 1 ball forward splits defence we score but stats say lee more involved come on .. eyes open dont look at stats watch the games. gordon brown Don't know what prozone stats show, but the OS stats show me that LJ played a total of 60 games, this season and last, and has 2 assists. Hartley got that in one game v Derby, but I wonder what his Prozone stats were. Personally I hope LJ does well at Derby and they sign him permanently, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 so stats dont lie....crime is down .less people out of work. hmm stats can read any way you want . lee passes 10 balls back 1 forward 8 sideways . going nowhere .. hartley 1 ball forward splits defence we score but stats say lee more involved come on .. eyes open dont look at stats watch the games. gordon brown Your correct stats can be made to prove or disprove anything when someone's got an agenda, Prozone doesn't have an agenda like a politition though. Prozone will tell you everything at every level. It can give you a simple breakdown how many passes a player has made - which I think is what your problem with it is. If you drill a little deeper you can see what was happening with those passes - so you can see that LJ passes 10 back, 1 forward, 8 sideways and Hartley has played a defence splitting ball. I think before you come on here discrediting Prozone (a piece of software that nearly every team in the championship uses) I think you need to understand a little better how it works, what you can get out of it and when it is appropriate to use stats without blindly dismissing them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 FACTS are FACTS. When he got injured we dropped down the league. he played most of the first 38 games and we were top (or 2nd) He may not be the only reason we dropped down the league, but its fair to say we missed him... I dont think thats an insult to anyone. That doesnt really make sense. What about every other game in City's history where he hasnt played? What about every single game he has played? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 That doesnt really make sense. What about every other game in City's history where he hasnt played? What about every single game he has played? I dont get what you mean I was talking about that particular season, he certainly not played well very often since then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mindjuicer Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 so stats dont lie....crime is down .less people out of work. hmm stats can read any way you want . lee passes 10 balls back 1 forward 8 sideways . going nowhere .. hartley 1 ball forward splits defence we score but stats say lee more involved come on .. eyes open dont look at stats watch the games. gordon brown Stats are a tool and tools can be used to lie. But whilst the Government wants to lie, nobody is trying to lie with Prozone. Likewise, nobody is saying LJ is as good as Hartley. But Hartley doesn't split the defence that often and LJ stopped passing backwards about 4 months ago. And you have to put aside your preconceptions to notice these things. And really, isn't that what this thread is all about? LJ wasn't picked because his Dad was manager. He was picked because no-one else was expected to perform better on the day. But we have 6 good CMs, LJ wouldn't get much game time with us and will never be treated fairly by the fans. So if an offer comes in we should take it, else extend his loan at Derby. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton Kate Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 No way! We don't want Johnson back! If you really understand football, like some people on here, you would understand that someone who misplaces far fewer passes than he gets on target is quite frankly a liability. It's perfectly fair that other players making more mistakes get encouraging cheers from the crowd; whereas LJ gets jeered for every single tiny little misdemeanor. Honestly, some people just don't get it. I would welcome Johnson back............ Perhaps all the boo boys will read this and SHUT UP and got off his back once and for all. He has taken so much stick in the past I would be very surprised if he wanted to come back!!!! You would obviously appreciate that but there are some of us who ACTUALLY like Lee Johnson the player. When we went to Newcastle my friends daughter has Johnson on the back of her shirt and was yelled at by a so called supporter for having this. Pathetic!! Not everyone likes the same players !!! But to give the guy stick everytime he plays is out of order. We as supporters are there to SUPPORT THE TEAM so lets try supporting ALL OF THEM!!!!! RANT OVER Roll on Middlesborough.......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Humble Realist Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Lee Johnson is shit and cannot make it consistantly at this level. Nothing more needs to be said. Im sure Lee feels the same way about u Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Humble Realist Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 Your correct stats can be made to prove or disprove anything when someone's got an agenda, Prozone doesn't have an agenda like a politition though. Prozone will tell you everything at every level. It can give you a simple breakdown how many passes a player has made - which I think is what your problem with it is. If you drill a little deeper you can see what was happening with those passes - so you can see that LJ passes 10 back, 1 forward, 8 sideways and Hartley has played a defence splitting ball. I think before you come on here discrediting Prozone (a piece of software that nearly every team in the championship uses) I think you need to understand a little better how it works, what you can get out of it and when it is appropriate to use stats without blindly dismissing them. I stick up for LJ a fair bit, not neccersarily as a player but more stick up for him cos the abuse he gets is unjustified. However, as for prozone, you can say what u want about it but in footie its a results buisness. I think it can help improve performances and individual performances but for example...in yesterdays Stoke Arsenal game im sure Prozone viewed the match as a comfortable Arsenal win. Yet stoke kicking lumps outa Arsenal worked and they won 3-1. it has got its good qualities and im sure it helps improve individual performances and thusly the teams performance, i just dont think u shud justfiy how good a player is because of it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alex_BCFC Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I stick up for LJ a fair bit, not neccersarily as a player but more stick up for him cos the abuse he gets is unjustified. However, as for prozone, you can say what u want about it but in footie its a results buisness. I think it can help improve performances and individual performances but for example...in yesterdays Stoke Arsenal game im sure Prozone viewed the match as a comfortable Arsenal win. Yet stoke kicking lumps outa Arsenal worked and they won 3-1. it has got its good qualities and im sure it helps improve individual performances and thusly the teams performance, i just dont think u shud justfiy how good a player is because of it You must have been watching a diffrent game to me- Stoke won with two well crafted goals and I didn't think they played in a dirty manner at all. I know pro-zone must have its advantages but I prefer to go on what I see rather than worry about if someone ran for 2% more or something. And what I've seen is that LJ is poor for 3 or 4 games that has a reasonable game- he isn't good enough to take us forward. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pezo Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 I stick up for LJ a fair bit, not neccersarily as a player but more stick up for him cos the abuse he gets is unjustified. However, as for prozone, you can say what u want about it but in footie its a results buisness. I think it can help improve performances and individual performances but for example...in yesterdays Stoke Arsenal game im sure Prozone viewed the match as a comfortable Arsenal win. Yet stoke kicking lumps outa Arsenal worked and they won 3-1. it has got its good qualities and im sure it helps improve individual performances and thusly the teams performance, i just dont think u shud justfiy how good a player is because of it Completely correct - your describing Prozone how every club should and our management team does use it as far as im aware. If you as manager and the management team see something in a game and then look at Prozone after the game and Prozone shows the same thing then you can be 99% sure that this positive or negative thing can be worked on or emphasised to help you. If you and the management team see something and Prozone doesn't back it up then you maybe need to look at a matchday video again just to check but still always believe in what you see. I don't care what anybody says your eyes can lie which is why many managers watch games over and over, stats do not lie(as long as you understand there context). As long as GJ understand the limitations of the software he will be fine (which I am fairly sure he and Millen does by the way they have talked about it). My stance on LJ is simple: I do think LJ is good enough for this league unfortunately for him we have an abundance of very good midfielders that are better than him so he should'nt be in the first team when others are fit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted January 25, 2010 Report Share Posted January 25, 2010 The problem with prozone is whether people use it objectively or look for evidence to support conclusions they've already reached. Millen using it to describe width as a myth tells me it is easy to misuse. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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