Are The Football League Going To Fudge This Possible Cardiff City Points Deduction?

[Never to the dark side]

okay so Cardiff get into one of the play off places and we end up seventh.

If they enter administration on Wednesday 5th of May, and remain solvent, when will the ten point deduction be implemented?

ten point deduction this current season would that mean the table would have to be altered.

If that were to happen would there be enough time for tickets to be sold(to the seventh place team that could be us)

for the play off games considering the play offs take place on the Saturday

or would the ten point deduction be implemented next season whether in the top flight or the championship

best option would be total bankruptcy and out of business

Maybe if they get a ten point deduction on the Wednesday and it is implemented and Cardiff get knocked out in the first round

of the championship play offs

they will start with a ten point deduction next season

[CiderHider]

okay so Cardiff get into one of the play off places and we end up seventh.

If they enter administration on Wednesday 5th of May, and remain solvent, when will the ten point deduction be implemented?

ten point deduction this current season would that mean the table would have to be altered.

If that were to happen would there be enough time for tickets to be sold(to the seventh place team that could be us)

for the play off games considering the play offs take place on the Saturday

or would the ten point deduction be implemented next season whether in the top flight or the championship

best option would be total bankruptcy and out of business

Maybe if they get a ten point deduction on the Wednesday and it is implemented and Cardiff get knocked out in the first round

of the championship play offs

they will start with a ten point deduction next season

interesting point actually, I wonder how much of a deterrent going into admin and being docked -10 pts is these days, seems like a fair gamble tbh, the purputrator should be dropped 2 leagues really, that would be better.

[InCider]

okay so Cardiff get into one of the play off places and we end up seventh.

If they enter administration on Wednesday 5th of May, and remain solvent, when will the ten point deduction be implemented?

ten point deduction this current season would that mean the table would have to be altered.

If that were to happen would there be enough time for tickets to be sold(to the seventh place team that could be us)

for the play off games considering the play offs take place on the Saturday

or would the ten point deduction be implemented next season whether in the top flight or the championship

best option would be total bankruptcy and out of business

Maybe if they get a ten point deduction on the Wednesday and it is implemented and Cardiff get knocked out in the first round

of the championship play offs

they will start with a ten point deduction next season

I'm sure that someone posted on here that the cut-off date for a points deduction this season was back in March? If they literally went out of business, this would mean that their results this season would not count (as happened with Chester), so would also do our goal difference a world of good! Anyone know the likelyhood of this happening?

[luke_bristol]

The Welsh FA would probably bail them out, after all they are the Barcelona of Wales

[Andy082005]

I'm sure that someone posted on here that the cut-off date for a points deduction this season was back in March? If they literally went out of business, this would mean that their results this season would not count (as happened with Chester), so would also do our goal difference a world of good! Anyone know the likelyhood of this happening?

Yep, I think they changed the rules a few years ago when Leeds pulled a crafty one. Im sure though, although dont quote me on this, IF they go in to administration now, or before the end of the season, they will start next season on -25 points.

[Red Ferret]

Its all irrelevent - the Malaysian consortium will bail them out when it gets to that stage.

[Blagdon red]

I'm sure that someone posted on here that the cut-off date for a points deduction this season was back in March? If they literally went out of business, this would mean that their results this season would not count (as happened with Chester), so would also do our goal difference a world of good! Anyone know the likelyhood of this happening?

As someone posted previously, I think you will find that if a club goes into administration following the March cut-off, the season is played to the end ... then, if deduction of ten points at that point would have an affect on their relegation or promotion, the points get deducted. If not, they are deducted the following season.

Therefore, if Cardiff go into administration between now and May 8th AND they end the season in a play-off spot AND a loss of ten points would put them outside of the play-off places, then they should incur the 10-point deduction at that time. The club in 7th would then move up into the play-offs.

That, at least, is my understanding of the rules.

[Dan Robin]

During Cardiff-Swansea, the Italian commentator said that Cardiff is doing an agreement with some Asian businessmen to find money to avoid the point deduction... so if it happens,they will maintain their position

[InCider]

As someone posted previously, I think you will find that if a club goes into administration following the March cut-off, the season is played to the end ... then, if deduction of ten points at that point would have an affect on their relegation or promotion, the points get deducted. If not, they are deducted the following season.

Therefore, if Cardiff go into administration between now and May 8th AND they end the season in a play-off spot AND a loss of ten points would put them outside of the play-off places, then they should incur the 10-point deduction at that time. The club in 7th would then move up into the play-offs.

That, at least, is my understanding of the rules.

Cheers. Here's to hoping they can't find the money. Still, if they had 10 points deducted now, they'd still be above us! Can't see us getting 7th place tho. Our goal difference is also very poor compared to the other teams in the mix.

[The Casual Connoisseur]

It was march 23rd for points deduction this season, as someone pointed out they have Dato Chan lurking in the background with an open chequebook.

The HMRC had their chance to make an example of Cardiff, they have set a benchmark now for deadline extensions, it would be criminal for the next club in Cardiffs situation to be wound up after their special treatment.

[Donald]

It was march 23rd for points deduction this season, as someone pointed out they have Dato Chan lurking in the background with an open chequebook.

The HMRC had their chance to make an example of Cardiff, they have set a benchmark now for deadline extensions, it would be criminal for the next club in Cardiffs situation to be wound up after their special treatment.

The HMRC have already made an example recently (chester city - GONE) and will do it again given the chance.

The interesting question is, why are soooo many clubs having debt issues which are related to HMRC? Answer - Bristol City 1982.

They don't like us very much, Needless to say SL ensure's they are the first creditors paid anything.

Fingers Crossed though they will get a deduction and we are in position to take advantage - Just imagine City finishing 7th, then getting into and winning the play-offs due to Cardiff losing 10points.

[Kid in the Riot]

Fingers Crossed though they will get a deduction and we are in position to take advantage - Just imagine City finishing 7th, then getting into and winning the play-offs due to Cardiff losing 10points.

I've got a semi just thinking about it

[The Casual Connoisseur]

The HMRC have already made an example recently (chester city - GONE) and will do it again given the chance.

The interesting question is, why are soooo many clubs having debt issues which are related to HMRC? Answer - Bristol City 1982.

They don't like us very much, Needless to say SL ensure's they are the first creditors paid anything.

Fingers Crossed though they will get a deduction and we are in position to take advantage - Just imagine City finishing 7th, then getting into and winning the play-offs due to Cardiff losing 10points.

Cardiff WONT lose any points, if they fail to pay (which they won't) they get wound up.

Question is why give them nearly a month longer than Southend to pay and wind Chester up, Cardiff ate getting special treatment, it seems quite obvious that someone seems to be looking out for them!

[Redcliffe 78]

Cardiff WONT lose any points, if they fail to pay (which they won't) they get wound up.

Question is why give them nearly a month longer than Southend to pay and wind Chester up, Cardiff ate getting special treatment, it seems quite obvious that someone seems to be looking out for them!

Maybe it's the Prince of Wales getting a favour of the old dear.

[Chappers]

The HMRC have already made an example recently (chester city - GONE) and will do it again given the chance.

The interesting question is, why are soooo many clubs having debt issues which are related to HMRC? Answer - Bristol City 1982.

They don't like us very much, Needless to say SL ensure's they are the first creditors paid anything.

Fingers Crossed though they will get a deduction and we are in position to take advantage - Just imagine City finishing 7th, then getting into and winning the play-offs due to Cardiff losing 10points.

I think that HMRC object to football creditors being satisfied as priority, and are getting tougher to try and prompt a rule change.

[22A]

Cardiff WONT lose any points, if they fail to pay (which they won't) they get wound up.

Question is why give them nearly a month longer than Southend to pay and wind Chester up, Cardiff ate getting special treatment, it seems quite obvious that someone seems to be looking out for them!

Cardiff were given extra because the judge believed them when they stated they were getting some money from the Asian business man. If that money is not available by Wednesday May 5th, then Cardiff WILL be wound up.

Football League rule 12.2 states what happens if a club folds after the regular season, but before the play offs. I've got the wording on my PC at work, so will try and post it tomorrow lunch time.

[Bristol Rob]

Cardiff were given extra because the judge believed them when they stated they were getting some money from the Asian business man. If that money is not available by Wednesday May 5th, then Cardiff WILL be wound up.

Football League rule 12.2 states what happens if a club folds after the regular season, but before the play offs. I've got the wording on my PC at work, so will try and post it tomorrow lunch time.

So are you saying that Cardiff aren't able to go into administration now and their only option - if they fail to pay HMRC is to be wound up?

If they were to enter into administration, would they be able to get promoted anyway? I'm pretty sure that the Conference don't accept club who are in administration, I wonder what the Premierships view is on this?

[bucksred]

Yep, I think they changed the rules a few years ago when Leeds pulled a crafty one. Im sure though, although dont quote me on this, IF they go in to administration now, or before the end of the season, they will start next season on -25 points.

Thats what happend to Lu'on I beleive.

[Slave to the rhythm]

So are you saying that Cardiff aren't able to go into administration now and their only option - if they fail to pay HMRC is to be wound up?

If they were to enter into administration, would they be able to get promoted anyway? I'm pretty sure that the Conference don't accept club who are in administration, I wonder what the Premierships view is on this?

But they only owe the taxman about a million, which they could easily find by agreeing to sell Chopra or Whittingham at the start of the next transfer window and accepting a £1million down payment from the buying club now.

I hate to say it, but Cardiff will be OK.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I'm a tad confused about this one really. I mean, Portsmouth had one winding up order I believe then administration.

Cardiff have had three if memory serves...yet still no points docked and in the playoffs?! I don't recall other clubs receiving such treatment!

[22A]

Cardiff were given extra because the judge believed them when they stated they were getting some money from the Asian business man. If that money is not available by Wednesday May 5th, then Cardiff WILL be wound up.

Football League rule 12.2 states what happens if a club folds after the regular season, but before the play offs. I've got the wording on my PC at work, so will try and post it tomorrow lunch time.

OK folks, here's the Football league rule 12. Rule 12.2.2 is the one relating to clubs folding between the end of the regular season and the play offs.

12 Retirement and Admission of Clubs

12.1 Clubs retiring from The League pursuant to Regulations 10 and 11 shall retire with effect from the end of the relevant Season, whereupon new Clubs taking their places shall be admitted and be deemed to have been formally elected as members of The League. With effect from such time any new Club shall become entitled to receive a transfer of and to exercise the rights attaching to such share in The League held by the retiring Club as the Board shall direct and each of the retiring Clubs shall procure that, with effect from such date and until the respective transferee Club has been registered as the holder of its share in the Register of Members of The League, the rights attaching thereto shall be exercised in such manner as such transferee Club shall direct.

12.2 Cessation of membership. If a Club (or Clubs) ceases to be a member of The League for any reason (including, without limitation, pursuant to Article 4 of the Articles of Association or by way of relegation or expulsion for disciplinary reasons):

12.2.1 during any Normal Playing Season, its playing record shall be expunged and the number of relegation places from the relevant Division for that Season shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members;

12.2.2 during the period between the end of the Normal Playing Season and the conclusion of the last Play-Off Match for that Season, its playing record shall not be expunged but the number of relegation places from the relevant Division for that Season shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members; or

12.2.3 during the period between the conclusion of the last Play-Off Match and the start of the following Season, its playing record shall not be expunged but the number of relegation places from the Division in which a Club would have played but for its cessation of membership, shall be reduced by the number of Clubs ceasing to be members and, during that Season, the relevant Division shall operate with a reduced number of Clubs.

[italian dave]

I think there's a difference between insolvency and going into adminstration. That difference was only introduced in 1986 - so City's situation in 1982 (and Charlton and Middlesbrough soon after) were different to what happens today.

If a company is declared insolvent - either by the complany itself or by its creditors - then it ceases to exist, its assets are sold off and the proceeds used to pay creditors a % of what they are owed. End of company - and presumably when the League rules about a club going out of business kick in.

If the company goes into administration then it's buying time, to try to find someone who'll buy the whole company and keep it going. I think the creditors still have to agree to it - and as part of that may get less than they are owed - but the theory is that they'll get more than if it went into liquidation. Especially true, I would imagine, of football clubs. Provided it works out then the company continues to exist.

If a club goes into administration they get points deducted, but since Leeds did it after they were already relegated the 'cut off' date - which is something like the 4th Thursday in March - was introduced. Any club going into administration after that date will get the points deducted next season. That's why Portsmouth didn't challenge their deduction: it looked like they were down anyway, and if they had challeneged and lost they would have risked going past the cut off and having the points deducted next season.

So, I think, if Cardiff go into administration then they'll have the points deducted next season - is that the first time that will haev happened to a club going up?

Applications for winding up orders are different to getting one - so clubs could have as many applications against them as they have creditors, but if they can persuade the court to postpone or suspend them then nothing more happens. I'm not sure really what choices there are when a winding up application is considered by a court - , I guess that they could persuade a court that administration was a viable way forward - but only if the court thought it was realistic?

Bottom line seems to be that BCFC are not going to benefit whatever happens to Cardiff this season!! (Though if they were declared insolvent before the 2nd May their record this season would be 'expunged' - that would improve our goal difference if nothing else!!)

[The Casual Connoisseur]

Cardiff were given extra because the judge believed them when they stated they were getting some money from the Asian business man. If that money is not available by Wednesday May 5th, then Cardiff WILL be wound up.

It wasn't their first winding up order though, they should have been treated te same as everyone else, Cardiff at the time had as much chance of getting investment as Pompey did, the whole thing stinks.

Football League rule 12.2 states what happens if a club folds after the regular season, but before the play offs. I've got the wording on my PC at work, so will try and post it tomorrow lunch time.

[22A]

Bottom line seems to be that BCFC are not going to benefit whatever happens to Cardiff this season!!

Unless of course, City finished 7th and Cardiff disappeared before the first play off game!

Meanwhile Sheff W must be sweating on Cardiff as that would be one less club to be relegated!

[italian dave]

It's a bit unclear, isn't it? As you've said they aren't likely to go before 5th May cos that's when the next hearing is.

I would have though that the "end of the normal playing season" to quote rule 12, was the end of the last set of fixtures on 2nd May? Before that it would be a re-calculation of points (which I guess we'd benefit from) but that really seem unlikeley.

Once 2nd May games finish then one less club gets relegated (hooray for Sheff Weds), but the rules don't seem to anticipate that the club going out of business would have been in the play offs - there's nothing to say what happens then. Maybe you're right, and they would let the 7th placed club take part. But what would happen if, say, Cardiff played their first play off game, won it, and then went bust??

Anyway, all very "what if" - I don't for a moment think they'll go out of business! And anyawy, it's one thing to see them gets points deducted, which I'd be more than happy with after the way they have acted past few years - its quite another to wish a club - even Cardiff - to disappear completely, least of all to benefit from it!

[Portland Bill]

interesting point actually, I wonder how much of a deterrent going into admin and being docked -10 pts is these days, seems like a fair gamble tbh, the purputrator should be dropped 2 leagues really, that would be better.

The 2 league drop IS being debated at the next football league chairmans meeting. Orient's chairman Barry Hearn has proposed it.