Roy Hodgson

[CliftonCliff]

As things are fairly quiet at the moment, and Roy is very deservedly big news, I wonder if anyone can confirm a half-remembered story from the dread days of Benny Lennartsson?

Hodgson of course managed City for a while in the early eighties, when they were on their way to setting an unenviable record for falling from the top division to the fourth in successive seasons. But many years later, when City were struggling in the second tier, Scott Davidson in his wisdom decided to appoint Benny in place of John Ward. He became manager, but the proposal was initially that he should be Director of Football, with Ward remaining in post. Ward found this proposition unacceptable and resigned. (Can't say I blame him).

The outcome of this master stroke is well known and I won't dwell on it. But I have this vague recollection that Ward, who always struck me as a decent man, did not disagree that he needed some help and would have accepted someone in a DoF role, if he could have his say in who that should be. (Again, not altogether unreasonable). I seem to recall that Hodgson was his preferred choice (assuming he would have come here at that time and in that capacity, which we will now never know). Davidson insisted on Benny and the rest, as they say, is history.

I'm just wondering if anyone can confirm that I have this right? And, as a matter of interest, and just for our own amusement, I wonder also whether people think that season might have been less of a disaster if we'd had Hodgson on board instead of Benny? I seem to recall thinking that Ward's idea made more sense than Scott's at the time.

In passing, I'd just add that Hodgson and Lennartsson may have been acquainted with each other in those days, as Roy originally made his managerial reputation in Sweden, Benny's native country, where I believe he still lives in well-deserved obscurity.

[chinapig]

John Ward wanted Ray Harford but had Benny foisted on him instead. As to Roy, right man at the wrong time sadly.

[CliftonCliff]

John Ward wanted Ray Harford but had Benny foisted on him instead. As to Roy, right man at the wrong time sadly.

Well, thanks for that. Yet another worrying senior moment. So what you're saying is that, apart from the incidental fact that they happen to have exactly the same initials, I've got the whole thing completely wrong? Bloody hell. The old folk's home looms ever nearer.

[chinapig]

Well, thanks for that. Yet another worrying senior moment. So what you're saying is that, apart from the incidental fact that they happen to have exactly the same initials, I've got the whole thing completely wrong? Bloody hell. The old folk's home looms ever nearer.

I'll wager I'm closer to the front of the queue than you.

[CliftonCliff]

Well, thanks for that. Yet another worrying senior moment. So what you're saying is that, apart from the incidental fact that they happen to have exactly the same initials, I've got the whole thing completely wrong? Bloody hell. The old folk's home looms ever nearer.

To add to the above, and as further evidence of my rapidly advancing decrepitude, I've just had to look up Ray Harford, who I seem unable to disentangle in my memory from the other RH.

I'll probably now start confusing him with Mick Harford, although the clue that Mick is the one who's still alive should help.

[CliftonCliff]

I'll wager I'm closer to the front of the queue than you.

Not if my performance on the forum this afternoon is anything to go by!

[spudski]

Benny Lennartsson is a football genius...imho.

John Ward left us in the shit. Jumped off a sinking ship. Couldn't handle it in the Championship and went to SD asking for help. When Lennartsson was appointed to help, he jumped ship and left Benny to try and clean up his mess.

Ward imo, was a brown nose. Always walking amongst the fans in the crowd, and shaking hands. Trying to get them on his side. Fan's fell for it. Very clever John Ward...we have some gullable fans.

Lennartsson has coached his national side, knocked Chelsea out of the UEFA Cup, Coached the Olympic team and is now involved in the World Cup. He is very well respected amongst other Club coaches. What has John Ward achieved?

[EmersonsKev]

Benny Lennartsson is a football genius...imho.

John Ward left us in the shit. Jumped off a sinking ship. Couldn't handle it in the Championship and went to SD asking for help. When Lennartsson was appointed to help, he jumped ship and left Benny to try and clean up his mess.

Ward imo, was a brown nose. Always walking amongst the fans in the crowd, and shaking hands. Trying to get them on his side. Fan's fell for it. Very clever John Ward...we have some gullable fans.

Lennartsson has coached his national side, knocked Chelsea out of the UEFA Cup, Coached the Olympic team and is now involved in the World Cup. He is very well respected amongst other Club coaches. What has John Ward achieved?

I will agree with you spudski, his coaching ability is 2nd to non have a look at his CV. As mentioned he came aboard the titanic and there was no way he could have saved us. However managing and coaching is two different things.

[dafarms]

I am pretty sure Benny is Ass-Coach for the Ivory Coast World Cup squad.

My Father always ranted and raved about how good Roy Hodgson would become, So, I guess he was right on that, A first for him.

I must be the only one who thought, If Ward had stayed and worked with Benny they would have been a success. Not a first for me.

You are definately not the only one, I thought exactly the same, but Ward spat his dummy out, sorry if people have got other opionions, but where ever benny went he was a sucess, apart from us, when he took over a badly sinking ship, and wards own words " I don't know what to do".

[dafarms]

Benny Lennartsson is a football genius...imho.

John Ward left us in the shit. Jumped off a sinking ship. Couldn't handle it in the Championship and went to SD asking for help. When Lennartsson was appointed to help, he jumped ship and left Benny to try and clean up his mess.

Ward imo, was a brown nose. Always walking amongst the fans in the crowd, and shaking hands. Trying to get them on his side. Fan's fell for it. Very clever John Ward...we have some gullable fans.

Lennartsson has coached his national side, knocked Chelsea out of the UEFA Cup, Coached the Olympic team and is now involved in the World Cup. He is very well respected amongst other Club coaches. What has John Ward achieved?

Mate. I totally 100% agree with you, top post.

[054123]

Benny Lennartsson is a football genius...imho.

John Ward left us in the shit. Jumped off a sinking ship. Couldn't handle it in the Championship and went to SD asking for help. When Lennartsson was appointed to help, he jumped ship and left Benny to try and clean up his mess.

Ward imo, was a brown nose. Always walking amongst the fans in the crowd, and shaking hands. Trying to get them on his side. Fan's fell for it. Very clever John Ward...we have some gullable fans.

Lennartsson has coached his national side, knocked Chelsea out of the UEFA Cup, Coached the Olympic team and is now involved in the World Cup. He is very well respected amongst other Club coaches. What has John Ward achieved?

I also agree that Benny is a far better coach then many City fans give him credit for and actually don't think City played that bad under him, we were just a sinking ship.

As for John Ward, a very harsh assesment. He was genuine in many, many respects and in the bottom two divisions, has an excellent record. Maybe he couldn't handle the Championship, but he achieved more than Danny Wilson did.

[CliftonCliff]

I also agree that Benny is a far better coach then many City fans give him credit for and actually don't think City played that bad under him, we were just a sinking ship.

As for John Ward, a very harsh assesment. He was genuine in many, many respects and in the bottom two divisions, has an excellent record. Maybe he couldn't handle the Championship, but he achieved more than Danny Wilson did.

That's probably the most balanced response so far to my initial post.

To be fair, I was a bit flippant in my original remarks, partly because I was only trying to kick-start a pretty academic argument, just for a lark. I will readily concede that I was rather unkind to Benny on several levels. For one thing, despite the ghastly nature of the season over which he partly presided, I never took a dislike to the man and I don't think most other fans did, either, even though results were disastrous. He was a genial, likeable man and was proved right about a number of things. For one thing, he was a shrewd judge of a player, on the whole, and was largely for responsible for getting Jim Brennan's career properly off the ground. One of his first questions, I recall, when looking over the squad, was: "Why isn't the young Canadian boy in the team?" Dead right, as it later turned out. (Mind you, it could also be said he made some odd positional changes. Brennan, a left-sided player, was played at right back; Tony Thorpe, who was a consumate finisher but only broke into a run if the circumstances made it absolutely unavoidable, was asked to play in midfield; and another aberration was Soren Anderson, also a very good striker, appearing wide left for a number of matches).

The team's attacking qualities were another point in his favour. They rarely failed to score, at least in the first half of the season as I recall it (bit different from GJ's sides, then) and, given their 'goals for' total, would at one stage have been well up the table if the defence hadn't been so utterly inept. Responsibility for that must be traced back to the pre-season recruitment policy, so I guess if we're looking for the villain of the piece it would have to be the Chairman at the time, who stockpiled forwards at the expense of the rest of the side (and in some cases, without first consulting the man who was going to have to manage them).

I'd have to agree, though, that the comments about Ward are a bit harsh. I never much liked the style of football under him, and thought we had a lot of good fortune in the season he took us up, but nobody complained when we got promoted. He's a good, solid lower leagues manager, but as has been said, out of his depth at CCC level. (Remind you of anyone?)

[chinapig]

That's probably the most balanced response so far to my initial post.

To be fair, I was a bit flippant in my original remarks, partly because I was only trying to kick-start a pretty academic argument, just for a lark. I will readily concede that I was rather unkind to Benny on several levels. For one thing, despite the ghastly nature of the season over which he partly presided, I never took a dislike to the man and I don't think most other fans did, either, even though results were disastrous. He was a genial, likeable man and was proved right about a number of things. For one thing, he was a shrewd judge of a player, on the whole, and was largely for responsible for getting Jim Brennan's career properly off the ground. One of his first questions, I recall, when looking over the squad, was: "Why isn't the young Canadian boy in the team?" Dead right, as it later turned out. (Mind you, it could also be said he made some odd positional changes. Brennan, a left-sided player, was played at right back; Tony Thorpe, who was a consumate finisher but only broke into a run if the circumstances made it absolutely unavoidable, was asked to play in midfield; and another aberration was Soren Anderson, also a very good striker, appearing wide left for a number of matches).

The team's attacking qualities were another point in his favour. They rarely failed to score, at least in the first half of the season as I recall it (bit different from GJ's sides, then) and, given their 'goals for' total, would at one stage have been well up the table if the defence hadn't been so utterly inept. Responsibility for that must be traced back to the pre-season recruitment policy, so I guess if we're looking for the villain of the piece it would have to be the Chairman at the time, who stockpiled forwards at the expense of the rest of the side (and in some cases, without first consulting the man who was going to have to manage them).

I'd have to agree, though, that the comments about Ward are a bit harsh. I never much liked the style of football under him, and thought we had a lot of good fortune in the season he took us up, but nobody complained when we got promoted. He's a good, solid lower leagues manager, but as has been said, out of his depth at CCC level. (Remind you of anyone?)

Benny believed players ought to be able to play in any position. Sweet thought and fair enough if the players are Dutch say but never likely to work here, where we are pretty rigid about positions (most youngsters being told "You are a right back" or whatever before they're out of short trousers).

Some of the comments on John Ward were indeed unfair though it is true to say he was not up to it at a higher level, as he pretty much said himself.

The implication that Gary Johnson was similarly out of his depth seems similarly unfair to me given the fact that we became established at this level under him. It has been a long time since that was the case. He may not have been the right man to try to take us to the next level but deserves credit for his achievement I think. This division is also a lot stronger than it was in John and Benny's day imo. His record certainly bears comparison with anybody since Alan Dicks, though I am convinced Joe Jordan would have taken us up if he had not jumped ship; but again I think the CCC is now stronger and the financial competition much tougher.

[spudski]

Ha ha, You like a Wind-up Spudski don't you? Get your Tin hat on sir!

I agree about Benny being given a rough deal, Not his fault he had Ten strikers on the books.

I watched us play away to W.B.A that season, tore them to shreads, but only drew. Very unlucky, that game could have been the turning point.

I don't mean to wind people up...honest. I just say it, as i see it. I very rarely go along with the masses. I like to observe and judge for myself.

In reponse to my words about John Ward, I think i'm right. I never stated he was a bad manager. But he did drop us in the shit when he didn't get his way. When results were poor, I remember him walking amongst the crowd prior to the start of games, shaking hands with fans and making a big fuss of them. It was a bit like watching a Politician doing the rounds pre election. The fans loved him for it, and fell for his spin.

He approached me in the Williams going up the steps offering his hand to everyone as he passed. I shook his hand, but remarked..'what's this, trying to get the fans behind you then John?'...He looked shocked at first, then with a wry grin winked and carried on up the steps.

I spoke to him years later when he was manager at Cheltenham. We met at the Gloucestershire ccc Cheltenham festival. One of those prawn sandwich occasions. I won't repeat what he said of his time here, pretty damning about the Board etc, and from what i gathered, he was pretty much out of his depth with the jump up.

Nice bloke...but imo, Benny Lennartsson is by far better.

[Donald]

Benny Lennartsson is a football genius...imho.

John Ward left us in the shit. Jumped off a sinking ship. Couldn't handle it in the Championship and went to SD asking for help. When Lennartsson was appointed to help, he jumped ship and left Benny to try and clean up his mess.

Ward imo, was a brown nose. Always walking amongst the fans in the crowd, and shaking hands. Trying to get them on his side. Fan's fell for it. Very clever John Ward...we have some gullable fans.

Lennartsson has coached his national side, knocked Chelsea out of the UEFA Cup, Coached the Olympic team and is now involved in the World Cup. He is very well respected amongst other Club coaches. What has John Ward achieved?

Excellent Post. unfortunately Benny is one of the most under-rated managers in our history, he took over a sinking ship with a squad of players that were generally totally unfit and total without discipline, it didn't help Benny that a number of senior players (including a couple of so called club legends) weren't interested giving Benny a chance and when they did actually decide to listen, it was too little too late.

Great Man unfortunately wrong time, I still don't understand why he went in the summer and instead we brought in Pulis

[Jesus]

My minds gone blank. Was it Wardy or Benny that signed Bo Anderson? Worst city signing ever?

[CliftonCliff]

The implication that Gary Johnson was similarly out of his depth seems similarly unfair to me given the fact that we became established at this level under him. It has been a long time since that was the case. He may not have been the right man to try to take us to the next level but deserves credit for his achievement I think. This division is also a lot stronger than it was in John and Benny's day imo. His record certainly bears comparison with anybody since Alan Dicks, though I am convinced Joe Jordan would have taken us up if he had not jumped ship; but again I think the CCC is now stronger and the financial competition much tougher.

Only just picked upon this from yesterday and if you're still reading this thread, China, would just like to put the record staight.

Whenever I have made comments about GJ in the past, I have been careful to do so in the context of a recognition of his achievement in getting us promoted. I've done that in order to distance myself from those posters whose relentless criticisms of him have at times bordered on the outrageous and who have generally refused to acknowledge that he contributed anything of worth at all. (No names, no pack drill). On this occasion I failed to insert my customary disclaimer and consequently may have left myself open to misinterpretation.

That said, I think we will have to agree to disagree about whether he was up to it at this level. That may seem harsh after nearly three seasons, but I nevertheless do believe it to be the case and I don't think it's by chance that GJ has ended up at Peterborough and in League One. Our first season in the CCC was somewhat untypical in that (1) there was arguably no truly outstanding side in the division, or at best only one in WBA - and they were defensively frail at times; and (2) it was possible to achieve a play-off place with a relatively modest points total. There is, in addition to that, the first season syndrome to be taken into account, when momentum often carries quite mediocre sides into very respectable final positions in the league. (Colchester, for example, in the year before we joined the CCC). I don't want to take too much away from Gary, but I think, looking at the quality of our squad and our football, that we were flattered a little in the end.

Thereafter, our results from part way through our second season up to the point at which GJ left were almost relegation form. (I can't quote the stats now, but just a few weeks back there were numerous threads pointing out that we had picked up something like only nine wins in forty-odd games, and I do believe it might have been a desperately tight thing as to whether we would have stayed up if GJ had remained in post). I confess I was very relieved when he went and I would also argue that the subsequent recovery under a very inexperienced Keith Millen tells us something.

I lay myself open to accusations of hindsight in saying this, and I will have to ask you to take me on trust (though I think my posting history may bear me out if one could be bothered to check), but I had misgivings a long time ago about GJ's conservative, if not downright cautious, tactical approach and his rather crude, often confrontational style of man management. I always felt that these shortcomings were likely to bite him on the backside eventually and I think that is, in essence, what happened in the end. If he subsequently manages in the CCC again, whether it be with Peterbro' or another club, and succeeds in winning promotion, you will be most welcome to ram my words down my throat, and I hope I will have the good grace to accept that, but I remain firmly of the opinion that he is, like John Ward, someone whose managerial talents are not quite sophisticated enough to survive the transition from L1 to CCC.

[chinapig]

Only just picked upon this from yesterday and if you're still reading this thread, China, would just like to put the record staight.

Whenever I have made comments about GJ in the past, I have been careful to do so in the context of a recognition of his achievement in getting us promoted. I've done that in order to distance myself from those posters whose relentless criticisms of him have at times bordered on the outrageous and who have generally refused to acknowledge that he contributed anything of worth at all. (No names, no pack drill). On this occasion I failed to insert my customary disclaimer and consequently may have left myself open to misinterpretation.

That said, I think we will have to agree to disagree about whether he was up to it at this level. That may seem harsh after nearly three seasons, but I nevertheless do believe it to be the case and I don't think it's by chance that GJ has ended up at Peterborough and in League One. Our first season in the CCC was somewhat untypical in that (1) there was arguably no truly outstanding side in the division, or at best only one in WBA - and they were defensively frail at times; and (2) it was possible to achieve a play-off place with a relatively modest points total. There is, in addition to that, the first season syndrome to be taken into account, when momentum often carries quite mediocre sides into very respectable final positions in the league. (Colchester, for example, in the year before we joined the CCC). I don't want to take too much away from Gary, but I think, looking at the quality of our squad and our football, that we were flattered a little in the end.

Thereafter, our results from part way through our second season up to the point at which GJ left were almost relegation form. (I can't quote the stats now, but just a few weeks back there were numerous threads pointing out that we had picked up something like only nine wins in forty-odd games, and I do believe it might have been a desperately tight thing as to whether we would have stayed up if GJ had remained in post). I confess I was very relieved when he went and I would also argue that the subsequent recovery under a very inexperienced Keith Millen tells us something.

I lay myself open to accusations of hindsight in saying this, and I will have to ask you to take me on trust (though I think my posting history may bear me out if one could be bothered to check), but I had misgivings a long time ago about GJ's conservative, if not downright cautious, tactical approach and his rather crude, often confrontational style of man management. I always felt that these shortcomings were likely to bite him on the backside eventually and I think that is, in essence, what happened in the end. If he subsequently manages in the CCC again, whether it be with Peterbro' or another club, and succeeds in winning promotion, you will be most welcome to ram my words down my throat, and I hope I will have the good grace to accept that, but I remain firmly of the opinion that he is, like John Ward, someone whose managerial talents are not quite sophisticated enough to survive the transition from L1 to CCC.

Your words are too eloquent for that and not my style anyway. My opinion is just my opinion and carries no weight at all.

There is no doubt that Gary slipped up but the subsequent improvement under Keith imo was to an extent down to players putting in effort they weren't before. I'm not sure there was huge change in general approach as such; for instance Keith soon jettisoned Ribeiro and Henderson. The Scunny game was a fairly typical one of recent times, disorganised, lacking motivation, full of shoddy defending and no threat going forward. Today's game was fairly typical too. Go ahead with a great Maynard goal, spend most of the game defending it and struggling against balls into the box, failing to keep possession etc. A sound performance but not radically different to before as such. I fear that more of those might still lurk without further significant change. Removing Gary was the right thing but only the start. Players who share culpability should follow imo.

Anyway I'm certainly not arguing that Gary would take us up. He got us up and established when many of us thought we would struggle from day one but that was probably as far as it would go. SC obviously is more likely to do so but I am uncomfortable with the opprobrium directed at the man who put us on an upward path. That's not the same as being out of his depth. For out of his depth I nominate Darren Ferguson as a much better candidate!

Anyway, I am always happy to debate these issues with you as your posts are invariably intelligent and articulate. Whether I agree with you is neither here nor there.

[CliftonCliff]

Your words are too eloquent for that and not my style anyway. My opinion is just my opinion and carries no weight at all.

There is no doubt that Gary slipped up but the subsequent improvement under Keith imo was to an extent down to players putting in effort they weren't before. I'm not sure there was huge change in general approach as such; for instance Keith soon jettisoned Ribeiro and Henderson. The Scunny game was a fairly typical one of recent times, disorganised, lacking motivation, full of shoddy defending and no threat going forward. Today's game was fairly typical too. Go ahead with a great Maynard goal, spend most of the game defending it and struggling against balls into the box, failing to keep possession etc. A sound performance but not radically different to before as such. I fear that more of those might still lurk without further significant change. Removing Gary was the right thing but only the start. Players who share culpability should follow imo.

Anyway I'm certainly not arguing that Gary would take us up. He got us up and established when many of us thought we would struggle from day one but that was probably as far as it would go. SC obviously is more likely to do so but I am uncomfortable with the opprobrium directed at the man who put us on an upward path. That's not the same as being out of his depth. For out of his depth I nominate Darren Ferguson as a much better candidate!

Anyway, I am always happy to debate these issues with you as your posts are invariably intelligent and articulate. Whether I agree with you is neither here nor there.

Fair shout, mate: you make the case very persuasively and it would be hard to take issue with anything in your second para.

As regards your final sentence, I don't want to turn this into a love-in, but thanks for the compliment and the feeling is mutual. You're not lacking in eloquence yourself and if all exchanges of opinion on the forum were this civilised and worthwhile, I'd probably spend a lot more time engaged in taking part.