Where Is The Justice?!

[James]

I am by no means condoning the way that clubs like Portsmouth have been run but it makes me sick to my stomach to see them being made such an example of whilst other clubs (naming no names!!) are able to get off next to scott free.

I do fully back every step that has been taken in making an example Pompey as otherwise how are clubs to learn but find it disgusting that "other clubs" in almost identical situations are able to escape any punishment whatsoever for what reason?!?!

I would not wish these terrible circumstances on any supporter or club but upon reading this Article I found myself amazed that HMRC were actully doing everything within their power to PREVENT Portsmouth from settling their debts in a managable way and have issued ANOTHER transfer embargo standing untill the next court hearing with the aim generally being that they will not be able to come out of administration? Where does this leave them at the start of the coming season??

This has gone beyond a joke and I can't imagine how i'd feel if I were a Pompey fan...

Disgracefull!

[Guest oftbc]

As a cva has not been agreed and signed off does that not warrent further points deductions as with other clubs I can recall that happening. Luton maybe?

[Guest oftbc]

is a cva has not been agreed and signed off does that not warrent further points deductions as with other clubs I can recall that happening. Luton maybe?

[James]

is a cva has not been agreed and signed off does that not warrent further points deductions as with other clubs I can recall that happening. Luton maybe?

My point exactly..

[chinapig]

I am by no means condoning the way that clubs like Portsmouth have been run but it makes me sick to my stomach to see them being made such an example of whilst other clubs (naming no names!!) are able to get off next to scott free.

I do fully back every step that has been taken in making an example Pompey as otherwise how are clubs to learn but find it disgusting that "other clubs" in almost identical situations are able to escape any punishment whatsoever for what reason?!?!

I would not wish these terrible circumstances on any supporter or club but upon reading this Article I found myself amazed that HMRC were actully doing everything within their power to PREVENT Portsmouth from settling their debts in a managable way and have issued ANOTHER transfer embargo standing untill the next court hearing with the aim generally being that they will not be able to come out of administration? Where does this leave them at the start of the coming season??

This has gone beyond a joke and I can't imagine how i'd feel if I were a Pompey fan...

Disgracefull!

How so disgraceful? And how exactly are Pompey settling their debts, other than to the Sol Campbell's of this world? The only disgraceful thing is the behaviour of clubs like Portsmouth running up stratospheric debts (estimated up to £120m in their case) and expecting to walk away from most of them. Why on earth should we taxpayers (and local businesses for that matter) write off most of what is owed to us when players and clubs can expect to get 100% back? In other words this is in effect a challenge to the football creditors rule which is laughably defended by those in the game as justified in order to maintain its integrity. Since when has there been any integrity in football? Just watch one interview in which Gordon Taylor explains why his poor Premier League members should not suffer hardship or the oily Scudamore claiming the PL manages its finances very well!

I would hope HMRC will continue to pursue other clubs until the game sorts itself out. The higher profile the clubs the more people may sit up and take notice since nobody gives a toss if somebody like Chester goes under.

As to the fans, I don't recall any protests against being owned by shall we say an individual who may not have been an entirely fit and proper person nor any complaints when Redknapp was signing a succession of players whose fees and wages they clearly could not afford. Their fate is a warning to all fans who still insist on their clubs "chasing the dream", including some of our own. I'm still waiting for the results of the alleged enquiries by the Administrator as to what exactly was going on behind the scenes at Pompey. That sound is me not holding my breath. In the meantime if any Pompey fan wants to lend me £100 I'll undertake to pay them back £20. Any more would surely be unfair?

As to Pompey being made an example of, the transfer embargo is imposed by the League not HMRC and quite right too. There is nothing exceptional in this; any club in the same position would suffer the same sanction. Where this leaves Portsmouth is where they deserve to be frankly. They're getting off lightly compared to any other business or individual in such circumstances. I'm with those in the game who want much tougher sanctions, including automatic relegation (didn't Salisbury get turfed out of the Conference for not having a CVA by May for instance?). Otherwise there will just be more and more Portsmouths.

Not that I feel strongly about about this issue.

[CliftonCliff]

How so disgraceful? And how exactly are Pompey settling their debts, other than to the Sol Campbell's of this world? The only disgraceful thing is the behaviour of clubs like Portsmouth running up stratospheric debts (estimated up to £120m in their case) and expecting to walk away from most of them. Why on earth should we taxpayers (and local businesses for that matter) write off most of what is owed to us when players and clubs can expect to get 100% back? In other words this is in effect a challenge to the football creditors rule which is laughably defended by those in the game as justified in order to maintain its integrity. Since when has there been any integrity in football? Just watch one interview in which Gordon Taylor explains why his poor Premier League members should not suffer hardship or the oily Scudamore claiming the PL manages its finances very well!

I would hope HMRC will continue to pursue other clubs until the game sorts itself out. The higher profile the clubs the more people may sit up and take notice since nobody gives a toss if somebody like Chester goes under.

As to the fans, I don't recall any protests against being owned by shall we say an individual who may not have been an entirely fit and proper person nor any complaints when Redknapp was signing a succession of players whose fees and wages they clearly could not afford. Their fate is a warning to all fans who still insist on their clubs "chasing the dream", including some of our own. I'm still waiting for the results of the alleged enquiries by the Administrator as to what exactly was going on behind the scenes at Pompey. That sound is me not holding my breath. In the meantime if any Pompey fan wants to lend me £100 I'll undertake to pay them back £20. Any more would surely be unfair?

As to Pompey being made an example of, the transfer embargo is imposed by the League not HMRC and quite right too. There is nothing exceptional in this; any club in the same position would suffer the same sanction. Where this leaves Portsmouth is where they deserve to be frankly. They're getting off lightly compared to any other business or individual in such circumstances. I'm with those in the game who want much tougher sanctions, including automatic relegation (didn't Salisbury get turfed out of the Conference for not having a CVA by May for instance?). Otherwise there will just be more and more Portsmouths.

Not that I feel strongly about about this issue.

Thank you for saving me the trouble of about 30 minutes labourious typing. If I'd got there first, I'd have said exactly the same things. With you all the way on this. The injustice and hypocrisy make me seeth. And don't get me started on Scudamore...

[chipdawg]

How so disgraceful? And how exactly are Pompey settling their debts, other than to the Sol Campbell's of this world? The only disgraceful thing is the behaviour of clubs like Portsmouth running up stratospheric debts (estimated up to £120m in their case) and expecting to walk away from most of them. Why on earth should we taxpayers (and local businesses for that matter) write off most of what is owed to us when players and clubs can expect to get 100% back? In other words this is in effect a challenge to the football creditors rule which is laughably defended by those in the game as justified in order to maintain its integrity. Since when has there been any integrity in football? Just watch one interview in which Gordon Taylor explains why his poor Premier League members should not suffer hardship or the oily Scudamore claiming the PL manages its finances very well!

I would hope HMRC will continue to pursue other clubs until the game sorts itself out. The higher profile the clubs the more people may sit up and take notice since nobody gives a toss if somebody like Chester goes under.

As to the fans, I don't recall any protests against being owned by shall we say an individual who may not have been an entirely fit and proper person nor any complaints when Redknapp was signing a succession of players whose fees and wages they clearly could not afford. Their fate is a warning to all fans who still insist on their clubs "chasing the dream", including some of our own. I'm still waiting for the results of the alleged enquiries by the Administrator as to what exactly was going on behind the scenes at Pompey. That sound is me not holding my breath. In the meantime if any Pompey fan wants to lend me £100 I'll undertake to pay them back £20. Any more would surely be unfair?

As to Pompey being made an example of, the transfer embargo is imposed by the League not HMRC and quite right too. There is nothing exceptional in this; any club in the same position would suffer the same sanction. Where this leaves Portsmouth is where they deserve to be frankly. They're getting off lightly compared to any other business or individual in such circumstances. I'm with those in the game who want much tougher sanctions, including automatic relegation (didn't Salisbury get turfed out of the Conference for not having a CVA by May for instance?). Otherwise there will just be more and more Portsmouths.

Not that I feel strongly about about this issue.

While i agree with everything you say and personally believe that its going to take 2 or 3 biggish clubs going out of existence before this general mess in football gets sorted, i think the OP was also making reference to HMRC's leniency towards some clubs whilst coming down hard on others. While Portsmouth's debts are in another league to other clubs, Cardiff got chance after chance to pay the debts off- basically giving them time to scrounge together the money, when Portsmouth were given no such time. The way Portsmouth have been run is disgraceful and someone needs to be brought to account over it, but the same could be said for several other clubs currently talking to HMRC about their debt to the treasurey

Personally i think that the owners of the clubs need to be more personally accountable for these things to stop them running clubs into the ground. Either that or have a German-style system where the fans have to own most of the club

[chinapig]

While i agree with everything you say and personally believe that its going to take 2 or 3 biggish clubs going out of existence before this general mess in football gets sorted, i think the OP was also making reference to HMRC's leniency towards some clubs whilst coming down hard on others. While Portsmouth's debts are in another league to other clubs, Cardiff got chance after chance to pay the debts off- basically giving them time to scrounge together the money, when Portsmouth were given no such time. The way Portsmouth have been run is disgraceful and someone needs to be brought to account over it, but the same could be said for several other clubs currently talking to HMRC about their debt to the treasurey

Personally i think that the owners of the clubs need to be more personally accountable for these things to stop them running clubs into the ground. Either that or have a German-style system where the fans have to own most of the club

This point keeps coming up and I keep replying in the same vein. It was the Courts, not HMRC who kept giving Cardiff extensions. If HMRC had had their way Cardiff would have been wound up.

[hippy273]

http://www.bcfc.co.uk/page/NewsDetail/0,,10327~2066637,00.html

I'm not sure they know how to deal with clubs in Administration

[Pezo]

This point keeps coming up and I keep replying in the same vein. It was the Courts, not HMRC who kept giving Cardiff extensions. If HMRC had had their way Cardiff would have been wound up.

Don't get me wrong I think the Cardiff situation stinks but if a business can show that it will be able to pay its debt then it should be allowed to continue until it can no longer do so. This may mean refinancing some debt so that its stretched out over a long period of time and they end up paying more in the long run but all Football Clubs have an income that can be used to pay debt. Being wound up and stating again with no debt doesn't help anyone.

[MC Risk]

How so disgraceful? And how exactly are Pompey settling their debts, other than to the Sol Campbell's of this world? The only disgraceful thing is the behaviour of clubs like Portsmouth running up stratospheric debts (estimated up to £120m in their case) and expecting to walk away from most of them. Why on earth should we taxpayers (and local businesses for that matter) write off most of what is owed to us when players and clubs can expect to get 100% back? In other words this is in effect a challenge to the football creditors rule which is laughably defended by those in the game as justified in order to maintain its integrity. Since when has there been any integrity in football? Just watch one interview in which Gordon Taylor explains why his poor Premier League members should not suffer hardship or the oily Scudamore claiming the PL manages its finances very well!

I would hope HMRC will continue to pursue other clubs until the game sorts itself out. The higher profile the clubs the more people may sit up and take notice since nobody gives a toss if somebody like Chester goes under.

As to the fans, I don't recall any protests against being owned by shall we say an individual who may not have been an entirely fit and proper person nor any complaints when Redknapp was signing a succession of players whose fees and wages they clearly could not afford. Their fate is a warning to all fans who still insist on their clubs "chasing the dream", including some of our own. I'm still waiting for the results of the alleged enquiries by the Administrator as to what exactly was going on behind the scenes at Pompey. That sound is me not holding my breath. In the meantime if any Pompey fan wants to lend me £100 I'll undertake to pay them back £20. Any more would surely be unfair?

As to Pompey being made an example of, the transfer embargo is imposed by the League not HMRC and quite right too. There is nothing exceptional in this; any club in the same position would suffer the same sanction. Where this leaves Portsmouth is where they deserve to be frankly. They're getting off lightly compared to any other business or individual in such circumstances. I'm with those in the game who want much tougher sanctions, including automatic relegation (didn't Salisbury get turfed out of the Conference for not having a CVA by May for instance?). Otherwise there will just be more and more Portsmouths.

Not that I feel strongly about about this issue.

[/qu

Thank you for also saving me time responding, agree with all the above, Pompeys debt are catastrophic 75m in taxes alone i believe, and they were also given more than enough time and court adjournments before punishment was imposed. Cardiff's debt is much smaller in comparison and therfore they will be with selling a few players in a position to settle the vast majority if not all of this!!!

[chinapig]

Don't get me wrong I think the Cardiff situation stinks but if a business can show that it will be able to pay its debt then it should be allowed to continue until it can no longer do so. This may mean refinancing some debt so that its stretched out over a long period of time and they end up paying more in the long run but all Football Clubs have an income that can be used to pay debt. Being wound up and stating again with no debt doesn't help anyone.

But the point is that Pompey cannot pay off theirs debts and never will. Only 20% will be paid to non-football creditors, which means they will get away with maybe up to £100m without penalty . Ultimately the Courts must decide whether the CVA is reasonable in law but I cannot see any ethical case for saying it is. Winding up might lead to creditors getting more from the realisation of the value from the club's assets for instance. Neverthless sooner or later a significant club must go under or clubs will just carry on doing the same things knowing they can screw their creditors whenever they like.

[James]

While i agree with everything you say and personally believe that its going to take 2 or 3 biggish clubs going out of existence before this general mess in football gets sorted, i think the OP was also making reference to HMRC's leniency towards some clubs whilst coming down hard on others. While Portsmouth's debts are in another league to other clubs, Cardiff got chance after chance to pay the debts off- basically giving them time to scrounge together the money, when Portsmouth were given no such time. The way Portsmouth have been run is disgraceful and someone needs to be brought to account over it, but the same could be said for several other clubs currently talking to HMRC about their debt to the treasurey

Personally i think that the owners of the clubs need to be more personally accountable for these things to stop them running clubs into the ground. Either that or have a German-style system where the fans have to own most of the club

Thank you, this was the point I was trying to make (thus the constant quotes such as "I do not in anyway condone the way Portsmouth have been run).

The fact that portsmouth have totted up more debts than other clubs should not be the precident for way they are punished. Any club that owes HMRC or, any other creditors for that matter should be dealt with in the same way with no exception. It is all very well "making an example" of a club like Portsmouth but only if you are going to treat every club in the same way otherwise what is the point.

As Chipdawg says it will probably take AT LEAST 2 or 3 big clubs going out of business before other clubs and chairmen start to really take notice.

Thank God for SL at the helm here!

[Pezo]

But the point is that Pompey cannot pay off theirs debts and never will. Only 20% will be paid to non-football creditors, which means they will get away with maybe up to £100m without penalty . Ultimately the Courts must decide whether the CVA is reasonable in law but I cannot see any ethical case for saying it is. Winding up might lead to creditors getting more from the realisation of the value from the club's assets for instance. Neverthless sooner or later a significant club must go under or clubs will just carry on doing the same things knowing they can screw their creditors whenever they like.

I don't really know enough about the whole Portsmouth mess but rather than just folding and writing off all that debt I believe it would be better if the debts could be paid over say 100 years? Make the payments interest only at 0.1% above inflation insuring they are relatively next to nothing with them having to find £120m in 100 years that with inflation will probably be next to nothing. This way everyone is still getting the money owed to them eventually and at above inflation.

I agree that 20% to non-football creditors is a disgrace and another idea is that as its the rules of the prem and FA that have allowed them to get in the mess then these creditors shortfall should be made up of 60% of the assets of the chairman and owners of Portsmouth (whatever can be clawed back from these people that knowingly ruined a 1/2 decent football club) and 40% the premier league and FA. Football in this country seems to have the attitude of look after you own (i.e. look after football) and then look after everyone, this seems to be an attempt to stop knock on effect in this such scenario but to me that is all wrong, at the end of the day football as a whole should pay off its debts and if that means that footballers cant earn the silly sums of money they currently enjoy then that would be a welcome change as far as im concerned.

[chipdawg]

This point keeps coming up and I keep replying in the same vein. It was the Courts, not HMRC who kept giving Cardiff extensions. If HMRC had had their way Cardiff would have been wound up.

Again fair point, but it doesn't necessarily make any difference as to whether its fair or not. It's only because Cardiff owe so much to Langston that HMRC aren't able to force the issue with them. I still think that Pompey are in effect getting a backlash from HMRC's failure to nail Cardiff

I've actually been thinking about this and i think we probably need to get rid of a whole professional division to sort things out; admittedly thats horribly unfair on some of the small teams who're run well, but in the long run they'd probably end up replacing the basket case financial messes of clubs anyway.

[chinapig]

Again fair point, but it doesn't necessarily make any difference as to whether its fair or not. It's only because Cardiff owe so much to Langston that HMRC aren't able to force the issue with them. I still think that Pompey are in effect getting a backlash from HMRC's failure to nail Cardiff

I've actually been thinking about this and i think we probably need to get rid of a whole professional division to sort things out; admittedly thats horribly unfair on some of the small teams who're run well, but in the long run they'd probably end up replacing the basket case financial messes of clubs anyway.

Again I fail to see what more HMRC can do. They applied to have Cardiff wound up but the Court kept giving them extensions. Eventually Cardiff paid up but now owe further tax and if they fail to pay back to Court it goes. Cardiff's debt to Langston has no bearing on HMRC who are only interested in getting the money the taxpayer is due (again). Indeed if Cardiff were wound up Langston would get their money back from disposals of Cardiff's assets. Cardiff of course are not and have not been in administration (yet) so are in a different position to Pompey who are using that route to escape paying 80% of their debts.

[MC Risk]

Again I fail to see what more HMRC can do. They applied to have Cardiff wound up but the Court kept giving them extensions. Eventually Cardiff paid up but now owe further tax and if they fail to pay back to Court it goes. Cardiff's debt to Langston has no bearing on HMRC who are only interested in getting the money the taxpayer is due (again). Indeed if Cardiff were wound up Langston would get their money back from disposals of Cardiff's assets. Cardiff of course are not and have not been in administration (yet) so are in a different position to Pompey who are using that route to escape paying 80% of their debts.

Correct again!!!! The Cardiff situation is entirely different