Here's A Thought

[CliftonCliff]

Sorry Cliff , your right.My wife has been fighting the big 'C' for 7 years and we just found she needs major surgery,which will be done in 2 weeks time.

This will be her 6th op, 3rd session of chemo and 3rd of radiotherapy.

And so we can't come home this year.

It all got a bit much, and I forgot my own rule.Never post drunk and angry.

Doesn't change my opinion of Nibor,but I could have been much more polite about it.

Andy

Andy

I've only just seen this at 10.30 this morning. Don't know if the time difference means you'll be offline now, but just wanted to say I'm so sorry to hear this. Football matters lose all significance in this context. My very best wishes and I do hope that things improve for your wife soon. Good luck.

CC

[Nibor]

Sometimes you write really well Nibor. As I've said before. But you do, I'm afraid, appear to have a desire to get the last word on everything. Even when, as with the post above, you have nothing much to say. As if what you write was the self evident truth. Which it isn't. This an forum for opinion...most of it, by definition, fairly ill informed

I post my opinions. I don't see the need to continually qualify those with "it's my opinion". That should be evident to anybody on a forum.

When I'm presenting something as a fact, I try to make that clear.

You can't "read whatever tone you want into a post". That's nonsense. You intend to come across as a man who really doesn't care to be challenged. Take a look at that picture. Fine, but don't pretend otherwise. Believe me that attitude puts off new posters who dislike the sound of the big gorillas of this forum beating their chests.

No, I don't intend to and I'm not pretending. You cannot possibly have any idea what my intent or attitude is and you're really just proving my point, you've read a tone into my posts that I didn't put there.

If you don't like my style of writing (I try to be terse and clear) that's fine with me, but please leave out the dodgy characterisations. I really do like it when people challenge my opinions with a good argument and that's why I reply to them when they do.

[marshy]

Millen might be a novice manager but he has been at the club for long enough to know it and the players inside out. The squad may have potential but this is an unforgiving league and all too soon we could be adrift at the foot of the table with even less confidence than we have now.

It's been coming ever since our playoff season. We did not strengthen the squad and bring in a quality Striker when we had the chance to consolidate our position at the top of the table - all City fans new that was the card to play at the time. Im sorry but loyalty goes out of the window when you have such an opportunity - you can't be nice in business.

As I see it giving Millen time to turn things around is not a calculated gamble or the right thing to do - it's pure stupidity.

Part of the problem is that he doesn't know them inside out as we have a squad full of new players. Consequently he has yet to find his best team and his best formation. As I've been saying for the past couple of seasons, too much change and an inability to manage those changes. Far better first to replace those leaving and then to bring in just two or three players to improve the quality of the squad where it needs strengthening.

[newboy]

Sorry Cliff , your right.My wife has been fighting the big 'C' for 7 years and we just found she needs major surgery,which will be done in 2 weeks time.

This will be her 6th op, 3rd session of chemo and 3rd of radiotherapy.

And so we can't come home this year.

It all got a bit much, and I forgot my own rule.Never post drunk and angry.

Doesn't change my opinion of Nibor,but I could have been much more polite about it.

Andy

From one human being to another, I genuinely hope she comes through this and that you both suffer as little as possible with the best possible outcome. I know it sounds glib to write this anonymously on a forum, but the sentiment is genuinely felt, for what it's worth.

[Red-Robbo]

Were looking to hard at stats, the main factors for me are:

Millen is very inexperienced as a first tram manager.

A tram manager might be a better job for him...

[Davros]

Ok Nibor - It's too time consuming to find ALL the stats! - but lets take last season in the Championship.

This time last year (Oct 09) the bottom 6 were:

19-Barnsley

20-Donny

21-Reading

22-Peterborough

23-Plymouth

24 -Ipswich

and their managerial decisions were:

19-Barnsley - sacked Davey August - stayed up

20-Donny - O'Driscoll no change - stayed up

21-Reading - sacked Rodgers December - stayed up

22-Peterborough- sacked Fergusen November (and then Cooper , and then Gannon) Relegated

23-Plymouth - sacked Sturrock Dec 09 - Relegated

24 -Ipswich - Keane no change - stayed up

Also Relegated of course was Sheff. Wed who wern't in the bottom 6 in Oct 09 (they were 16th) but when they

hit 21st in December Laws was sacked

You can read into that what you will

In the bottom 6 , 4 clubs sacked their managers - 2 stayed up 2 didn't

The only point I would make is that the 2 that didn't sack their managers (Donny & Ipswich) had relatively experienced managers who had had success before and therefore there was maybe a confidence that they had the ability to come through.

But - Sturrock though had been successful in the past - ditto Ferguson- but both were still sacked

I'd compare our situation more with Reading

My own view is that the KM appointment isn't working, and 2 more loses could well see SL act.

The appointment was a hasty one dictated by circumstance, and a choice which when SL WAS given time a few months previously he declined to take.

SL clearly hoped it would work out, possibly with help from an experienced no 2.

Clearly at present those hopes are not being fulfilled on the pitch.

It either improves or SL makes a change - that much is certain.

CR

YES!

[Guest Parson St Station]

From one human being to another, I genuinely hope she comes through this and that you both suffer as little as possible with the best possible outcome. I know it sounds glib to write this anonymously on a forum, but the sentiment is genuinely felt, for what it's worth.

Thankyou very much.That was very kind of you to make the time to comment.

[Guest Parson St Station]

Andy

I've only just seen this at 10.30 this morning. Don't know if the time difference means you'll be offline now, but just wanted to say I'm so sorry to hear this. Football matters lose all significance in this context. My very best wishes and I do hope that things improve for your wife soon. Good luck.

CC

Thanks Cliff..means a lot.

[The Red Planet]

Andy (as I now know is your real name)

It's a funny old world in this internet age when you can have friends on the internet who you have never met. However much we disagree on here (frequently of course) we all have one big thing in common, our love of BCFC. Personally I love the sense of community on this board.

So. I would like to add my sympathies for your current situation.

Both my wife and myself have experienced the "Big C" affecting family members (sometimes a good outcome, but not always).

I should say (as you must know) that medicine has made huge progress in this area over recent years and so keep your chin up old chap.

Our thoughts are with you and as Clifton Cliff has said, football fades into insignificance in these circumstances.

[Martyn Hocking]

Thankyou very much.That was very kind of you to make the time to comment.

Parson Street - my family has suffered a recent loss to 'the big C' so I feel your pain. Good luck mate - and best wishes to your wife.

[LongwellRed]

A tram manager might be a better job for him...

What duties do you think being a Tram manager would involve ? Very difficult to assess how good KM would be at this until I know your take on the role ?? (but a v funny post btw)

[Guest Parson St Station]

Thanks for the kind words people, my wife was very touched by the concern of total strangers.

Cheers

Andy

[Rednready]

Thankyou very much.That was very kind of you to make the time to comment.

I play golf with a foursome called the walking dead. We all have a story.

One of our group has had cancer in different parts of his body 7 times, Kemo 7 times, written off 7 times. His answer Febuary this year was to order a new set of golf clubs.

The human spirit, certain beliefs in the hereafter and modern medicine, can defeat almost anything. Ask the Austrian paper hanger.

Chin to the wind my friend, and may your God give you strength , I will pray for you.

[GrahamC]

I play golf with a foursome called the walking dead. We all have a story.

One of our group has had cancer in different parts of his body 7 times, Kemo 7 times, written off 7 times. His answer Febuary this year was to order a new set of golf clubs.

The human spirit, certain beliefs in the hereafter and modern medicine, can defeat almost anything. Ask the Austrian paper hanger.

Chin to the wind my friend, and may your God give you strength , I will pray for you.

Absolutely.

We all know how important this club is in our lives but really at the end of it all it is just a game, though admittedly one which takes up a big proportion of our leisure time.

A guy who sits two seats for me was given up as lost by virtually everyone last year and despite having a season ticket missed every single game of last season whilst in the Oncology Unit.

Unbelievably he renewed again this time and fought to the extent that he has been (just about) well enough to make it to every game but one so far despite us joking that the crap on the pitch must be sending him back into remission.

The human mind and body is utterly amazing as the great man above quite rightly says, whereas football is just a very interesting hobby.

The very best to your wife, Parson St.

[Alex_BCFC]

Nibor is probably the best poster on the forum, and though I don't always agree with everythign he says, he usually has some kind of reasoning for his opinion.

It would be interesting to know more stats on this. It seems to me that changing doesn't help in general but if we are thinking long term rather than just survival this season, I don't feel as if Millen is the man.

[CliftonCliff]

I have a sort of mantra that I trot out now and again. Apologies if you've read it before.

I think if you want to know the likely result of the next game, you look in the dressing room. If you want to know where you're likely to be at the end of the season, you look in the manager's office. But if you want to know where you're likely to be in five years or more, you look in the Chairman's office and the boardroom.

I'm as concerned as anybody here and relegation (which must obviously be regarded as a real possibility as things currently stand) would be a massive disappointment and a huge setback after all that's been achieved in recent years. However, as long as SL remains as Chairman I would continue to have confidence about the long term future of this club.

I do not mean by that to suggest that the man is infallible or walks on water. He is human. He makes mistakes. But he is an incredibly determined bloke, very committed to BCFC and when his mind is set on achieving something, woe betide anyone who tries to stand in his way. If we go down, and provided he doesn't walk away in sheer despair and frustration over the stadium thing, he is the sort who will take it on the chin, dust himself down, regroup and come back more resolved than ever to get where he wants to be.

And to those who have implied that the stadium is a sideshow and a distraction compared to the importance of maintaining CCC status - and I will no doubt invite ridicule by saying this, but what the hell - I would say it is, if anything, the other way round. Relegation can be temporary and can potentially be reversed - sometimes quite quickly, with luck . Failure to secure the new ground has profound implications for the long-term financial viability and survival of the club.

Just to put things in perspective, as I would see it....

Tin hat on; rhinoceros skin donned; do your worst.

[BrizzleRed]

I have a sort of mantra that I trot out now and again. Apologies if you've read it before.

I think if you want to know the likely result of the next game, you look in the dressing room. If you want to know where you're likely to be at the end of the season, you look in the manager's office. But if you want to know where you're likely to be in five years or more, you look in the Chairman's office and the boardroom.

I'm as concerned as anybody here and relegation (which must obviously be regarded as a real possibility as things currently stand) would be a massive disappointment and a huge setback after all that's been achieved in recent years. However, as long as SL remains as Chairman I would continue to have confidence about the long term future of this club.

I do not mean by that to suggest that the man is infallible or walks on water. He is human. He makes mistakes. But he is an incredibly determined bloke, very committed to BCFC and when his mind is set on achieving something, woe betide anyone who tries to stand in his way. If we go down, and provided he doesn't walk away in sheer despair and frustration over the stadium thing, he is the sort who will take it on the chin, dust himself down, regroup and come back more resolved than ever to get where he wants to be.

And to those who have implied that the stadium is a sideshow and a distraction compared to the importance of maintaining CCC status - and I will no doubt invite ridicule by saying this, but what the hell - I would say it is, if anything, the other way round. Relegation can be temporary and can potentially be reversed - sometimes quite quickly, with luck . Failure to secure the new ground has profound implications for the long-term financial viability and survival of the club.

Just to put things in perspective, as I would see it....

Tin hat on; rhinoceros skin donned; do your worst.

I'm really glad someone else thinks the same on this.

I'm sure its no coincidence that there is far less interest in fighting this town green nonsense at the moment, as fans are just focusing on events on the pitch. If we were top of the league, everyone would be on the case.

Yes results are important, but not getting the new ground would be disastrous to the long term future of the club and too many fans have literally taken their eye off the ball and I just hope the club doesn't suffer because of that. This terrible run we're in at the moment could have far more serious consequences than relegation and people need to wake up to the fact. As well as supporting from the terraces, we ALL need to be signing any petition going to put this town green crap where it belongs ........... DOWN IN THE LANDFILL WITH THE REST OF THE RUBBISH.

[CliftonCliff]

I'm really glad someone else thinks the same on this.

I'm sure its no coincidence that there is far less interest in fighting this town green nonsense at the moment, as fans are just focusing on events on the pitch. If we were top of the league, everyone would be on the case.

Yes results are important, but not getting the new ground would be disastrous to the long term future of the club and too many fans have literally taken their eye off the ball and I just hope the club doesn't suffer because of that. This terrible run we're in at the moment could have far more serious consequences than relegation and people need to wake up to the fact. As well as supporting from the terraces, we ALL need to be signing any petition going to put this town green crap where it belongs ........... DOWN IN THE LANDFILL WITH THE REST OF THE RUBBISH.

Well, at least that makes two of us who are going to cop it. Thanks for that, mate, and I believe you are absolutely spot on with the highlighted quotes above. All most people seem to be able to think about at the moment is whether, or when, Millen should be booted out. Much as the league position matters to all of us, it isn't - believe it or not - the single most important thing that's happening to this football club right now. We could get out of this mess we're in on the field, but it would be a hollow victory if, in the meantime, we lost the town green or Sainsburys planning decision. And if that happens, how long will it be after the cheering's died down before everyone realises we'd have been better off going down but still getting the new stadium?

There's a bigger picture here that too many have lost sight of.

[lager loud]

Well, at least that makes two of us who are going to cop it. Thanks for that, mate, and I believe you are absolutely spot on with the highlighted quotes above. All most people seem to be able to think about at the moment is whether, or when, Millen should be booted out. Much as the league position matters to all of us, it isn't - believe it or not - the single most important thing that's happening to this football club right now. We could get out of this mess we're in on the field, but it would be a hollow victory if, in the meantime, we lost the town green or Sainsburys planning decision. And if that happens, how long will it be after the cheering's died down before everyone realises we'd have been better off going down but still getting the new stadium?

There's a bigger picture here that too many have lost sight of.

And...I don't imagine for a moment that SL would walk away from the club because we got relegated. But he might just decide he'd had enough if he became convinced that his attempts to improve the club and the city it plays in were always going to be thwarted by NIMBYs and numpties.

SL is ambitious for the club. Going down could be seen as just a bump in the road, and I can imagine him seeing it as another challenge to be overcome. Not being able to build the new ground would be a major road block, and might just convince him that he couldn't ever get the club where he wants it to be. I hope it doesn't come to that, but he hasn't got where he is by settling for mediocrity.

[Martyn Hocking]

Yes results are important, but not getting the new ground would be disastrous to the long term future of the club and too many fans have literally taken their eye off the ball and I just hope the club doesn't suffer because of that. This terrible run we're in at the moment could have far more serious consequences than relegation and people need to wake up to the fact. As well as supporting from the terraces, we ALL need to be signing any petition going to put this town green crap where it belongs ........... DOWN IN THE LANDFILL WITH THE REST OF THE RUBBISH.

Don't agree with this at all guys. Look at Southampton - on paper they now have a modern ground that can generate serious income compared with the Dell. In reality, relegation meant the new ground is half empty, soulless (something you could never say about The Dell) and a bit of a white elephant. I can see Ashton Vale looking an awful like it if we go down (which we will with Millen left in charge).

[Kid in the Riot]

I can see Ashton Vale looking an awful like it if we go down (which we will with Millen left in charge).

How much do you want for the crystal ball?

[CliftonCliff]

And...I don't imagine for a moment that SL would walk away from the club because we got relegated. But he might just decide he'd had enough if he became convinced that his attempts to improve the club and the city it plays in were always going to be thwarted by NIMBYs and numpties.

SL is ambitious for the club. Going down could be seen as just a bump in the road, and I can imagine him seeing it as another challenge to be overcome. Not being able to build the new ground would be a major road block, and might just convince him that he couldn't ever get the club where he wants it to be. I hope it doesn't come to that, but he hasn't got where he is by settling for mediocrity.

Spot on, mate.

[Martyn Hocking]

Going down could be a 'bump in the road'?????

Good grief - it took us 9 years to get out of League One last time. If we go down we will be right back where we started when Lansdown took over - hardly progress.

[CliftonCliff]

Don't agree with this at all guys. Look at Southampton - on paper they now have a modern ground that can generate serious income compared with the Dell. In reality, relegation meant the new ground is half empty, soulless (something you could never say about The Dell) and a bit of a white elephant. I can see Ashton Vale looking an awful like it if we go down (which we will with Millen left in charge).

Your point seems to be that this example proves us wrong because Southampton are, for now, in L1. We don't know where they'll be in a year or two years, but that 'serious income' you refer to will be helping to sustain the club while they are in the lower leagues and attracting smaller attendances, which in turn improves their chances of getting out of there and of securing the long-term financial viability of their club. In that sense St. Mary's is certainly no white elephant, but a vital source of revenue at a difficult time for them. This gives them a far better chance of long term improvement than, say, our friends in Horfield, who for all their current glee at our discomfort lack such assets and consequently have a far less optimistic long-term outlook.

The same would be true of numerous other clubs whose grounds generate crucial revenue streams from non-football activities. I simply do not understand why some people continue to fail to grasp the importance of this argument. Football clubs just cannot make a profit purely out of football alone (unless you're Arsenal). SL, as an outstandingly astute businessman, certainly understands it, which is why he's moving heaven and earth to try to push this thing through. It simply could not be more essential to the club's future.

The other issues your comparison with Saints overlooks is the instability they've had in their boardroom over recent years and the poor financial management that has resulted from it that was at least partly responsible for their relegation. We have SL. They don't. I'd say that's a rather significant difference. Even so, I'd give Southampton a far better chance of making it back to the CCC in the short to medium term future than any one of a host of little clubs with decaying grounds and no hope of markedly improving their position using their main business assets - their stadia.

I will say it again. We could go down and recover. Fail to replace Ashton Gate and the consequences may not appear immediately disastrous, but wait and see what that does to the club's chances of progress over the next decade. Those obsessed with short-termism and the Millen-out row need to take a step back and look at the bigger picture. Their energy would be better spent somewhere it could benefit the club, in supporting the stadium project in any way they can, rather than in trying to get rid of the current manager.

[Martyn Hocking]

I understand exactly what you are saying Cliff but after almost 40 years of watching City the promise of 'jam tomorrow' is losing it's appeal.

I pitched up at AG for the Milwall game looking forward to seeing the dawn of a new era - a 2-3 year charge into the Prem led by a manager who had been there and done it.

Now here we are in October bottom of the league with a wet-behind-the-ears novice who inspires no confidence attempting to save our Championship status.

You'll forgive me if my excitement for the new stadium is somewhat diminished I'm sure!

[red man dan]

I have a sort of mantra that I trot out now and again. Apologies if you've read it before.

I think if you want to know the likely result of the next game, you look in the dressing room. If you want to know where you're likely to be at the end of the season, you look in the manager's office. But if you want to know where you're likely to be in five years or more, you look in the Chairman's office and the boardroom.

I'm as concerned as anybody here and relegation (which must obviously be regarded as a real possibility as things currently stand) would be a massive disappointment and a huge setback after all that's been achieved in recent years. However, as long as SL remains as Chairman I would continue to have confidence about the long term future of this club.

I do not mean by that to suggest that the man is infallible or walks on water. He is human. He makes mistakes. But he is an incredibly determined bloke, very committed to BCFC and when his mind is set on achieving something, woe betide anyone who tries to stand in his way. If we go down, and provided he doesn't walk away in sheer despair and frustration over the stadium thing, he is the sort who will take it on the chin, dust himself down, regroup and come back more resolved than ever to get where he wants to be.

And to those who have implied that the stadium is a sideshow and a distraction compared to the importance of maintaining CCC status - and I will no doubt invite ridicule by saying this, but what the hell - I would say it is, if anything, the other way round. Relegation can be temporary and can potentially be reversed - sometimes quite quickly, with luck . Failure to secure the new ground has profound implications for the long-term financial viability and survival of the club.

Just to put things in perspective, as I would see it....

Tin hat on; rhinoceros skin donned; do your worst.

I quite agree, although I really do feel that relegation is a major problem should it happen, partly because our stadium if we get it will be very cost 'in'efficient should we drop down a league and thus we would be in a worse position to come back up, financially, than if we stayed at the gate?? Too simplistic maybe?

Anyway, I do see your 'bigger' picture point, and with SL as chairmen I do agree we should be confident long term. I read this earlier and though some may say its silly Q&A at the end of an interview, I do trust that SL meant this when he said it!!

http://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/analysis/stephen-lansdown/141587.article

Life Ambition: To see Bristol City FC in the Premier League........I would say someone who can build a company like his, from his bedroom with a friend, should have a very good chance of seeing through their other ambition and that fills me with some confidence. We may be in a rough patch at the moment, but I do feel SL is in this for the long haul and in a business like his, on the scale in which he deals, setbacks and rough patches are will be common place at least they will have been and he has seen them through.

[CliftonCliff]

I understand exactly what you are saying Cliff but after almost 40 years of watching City the promise of 'jam tomorrow' is losing it's appeal.

I pitched up at AG for the Milwall game looking forward to seeing the dawn of a new era - a 2-3 year charge into the Prem led by a manager who had been there and done it.

Now here we are in October bottom of the league with a wet-behind-the-ears novice who inspires no confidence attempting to save our Championship status.

You'll forgive me if my excitement for the new stadium is somewhat diminished I'm sure!

Certainly it's forgiveable - my excitement's pretty bloody diminished and all! There's an air of dejection around at the moment which is completely understandable. You've only got to walk into the club shop to buy a couple of away tickets or something and you pick it up just chatting to the woman on the till. It's bound to send ripples through the entire organisation and however much the coaching staff trot out the old line about 'it doesn't affect the players', I don't believe that. They all work for the same employer, report to AG every day, know each other and talk to each other about what's happening. It's no different from any other workplace in that respect, except that crucially, any despondency also communicates itself to supporters, and vice versa - and that affects performance. Millen knowing that there are scores of people here screaming for his head won't help there and much the same will be true of the players.

It's how we respond to it that matters. If you've been watching that long, as I have too, you'll have the experience to realise that fortunes fluctuate in football. It's difficult for younger members of OTIB to adopt a more detached perspective because they haven't seen things come and go in the way that you and I have, so one tries to cut them a bit of slack, but I feel we all need to get a clearer sense of priorities. Relegation is a horrible, gut wrenching experience, but it's not the end of the world. Failure to take the club into the 21st century and put it on a successful long-term business footing might, however, just lead to its demise further down the road. Certainly some club, somewhere, will go tits up sooner rather than later.

It's not simply a case of 'jam tomorrow'. We tend to forget very quickly that we had quite a generous dollop of jam only a couple of years ago, with promotion and a play-off final. What you won't get is jam every year. Don't underestimate the boost to morale that could result from the defeat of the town green nonsense and the approval of Sainsburys application. It may be totally separate from the playing side of things in one way, but in another it's all of a piece. The bigger picture, as I keep saying.

[Southport Red]

Certainly it's forgiveable - my excitement's pretty bloody diminished and all! There's an air of dejection around at the moment which is completely understandable. You've only got to walk into the club shop to buy a couple of away tickets or something and you pick it up just chatting to the woman on the till. It's bound to send ripples through the entire organisation and however much the coaching staff trot out the old line about 'it doesn't affect the players', I don't believe that. They all work for the same employer, report to AG every day, know each other and talk to each other about what's happening. It's no different from any other workplace in that respect, except that crucially, any despondency also communicates itself to supporters, and vice versa - and that affects performance. Millen knowing that there are scores of people here screaming for his head won't help there and much the same will be true of the players.

It's how we respond to it that matters. If you've been watching that long, as I have too, you'll have the experience to realise that fortunes fluctuate in football. It's difficult for younger members of OTIB to adopt a more detached perspective because they haven't seen things come and go in the way that you and I have, so one tries to cut them a bit of slack, but I feel we all need to get a clearer sense of priorities. Relegation is a horrible, gut wrenching experience, but it's not the end of the world. Failure to take the club into the 21st century and put it on a successful long-term business footing might, however, just lead to its demise further down the road. Certainly some club, somewhere, will go tits up sooner rather than later.

It's not simply a case of 'jam tomorrow'. We tend to forget very quickly that we had quite a generous dollop of jam only a couple of years ago, with promotion and a play-off final. What you won't get is jam every year. Don't underestimate the boost to morale that could result from the defeat of the town green nonsense and the approval of Sainsburys application. It may be totally separate from the playing side of things in one way, but in another it's all of a piece. The bigger picture, as I keep saying.

A good example of this very phenomenon is Liverpool. The owner/ownership/debt shenanighans SHOULD NOT affect the players and yet, going out of cups to Northampton and losing at home to Blackpool are not what you TYPICALLY associate with Liverpool.

Cliff is right, these things should not distract the players...but they do.

[Nogbad the Bad]

Millen knowing that there are scores of people here screaming for his head won't help there and much the same will be true of the players.

Cliff, I don't think anyone is screaming for Millen's head - I haven't even heard one chant of 'Milllen out' in the ground and those advocating change on here are by and large doing it in a reasoned way. The reason for that, I suspect, is that most of us have a lot of time for SL, and were it not for this respect the mutterings of discontent at the appointment and chorus for change now would have been louder and longer some time ago. Despite all his good work though, it is essential in any football club that fans feel they can question the decisions of the man at the top, not simply kowtow to his every decision, however bewildering it may appear, for fear of upsetting him.

It's not simply a case of 'jam tomorrow'. We tend to forget very quickly that we had quite a generous dollop of jam only a couple of years ago, with promotion and a play-off final. What you won't get is jam every year. Don't underestimate the boost to morale that could result from the defeat of the town green nonsense and the approval of Sainsburys application. It may be totally separate from the playing side of things in one way, but in another it's all of a piece. The bigger picture, as I keep saying.

It's not a question of expecting 'jam' every season, most of us are content to be a mid table Championship club with an occasional eye to the play-offs - Bristol City Football Club's natural optimum position in the league structure imo. Relegation though is entirely different to an uneventful season and would be a monumental failure for everyone connected to the club.

I'm also now a 40 years+ watcher of BCFC and to me everything about City this season, from the uninspirational manager, subdued crowd, poor defence and lack of goals points to not just likely relegation, but almost certain with no change. We haven't even got the basic structure of the team right, and the majority of teams in this division will approach a game against Bristol City as either a chance to dish out a hammering, or to regain their own confidence with a good win. Not one team will view a confrontation with us with anything but optimism, and understandably so.

I'm afraid I can't take the prospect of a season of miserable relegation followed by League 1 football in my stride as easily as you appear able to.

BTW, I don't think the new Stadium has any affect on the players on the pitch whatsoever - the likelihood is only a minority of them will even be at City by the time it gets built and they will be more aware of that as they look to their futures.

[CliftonCliff]

BTW, I don't think the new Stadium has any affect on the players on the pitch whatsoever - the likelihood is only a minority of them will even be at City by the time it gets built and they will be more aware of that as they look to their futures.

Not in a direct sense, no: that would be a simplistic misinterpretation of what I was trying to say. Of course I wasn't suggesting the players, individually or collectively, cross the white line on a Saturday afternoon with their minds elsewhere, worrying about the town green controversy. That would be absurd.

I was talking about something more subtle, but at the same time very real and actually quite powerful, which is rooted in, if you like, the psychology of the situation; or just call it sentiment if you prefer. As we all know, this club has had not one but a succession of kicks in the teeth in a very short time: Sainsburys; Coppell; town green; bottom of the table. Sentiment can have a discernable effect on far more important things in life than the fortunes of a mere football club. (It can sway financial markets and potentially cause economic meltdown, for example. The short term fluctuations in share values on a daily basis has very little to do with the underlying investments and the profitability of the companies themselves, and more to do with how positive people feel - an abstract and unmeasureable factor, but one you ignore at your peril, as anyone who's ever lost money can tell you). It is an influence that permeates all organisations, large or small, for better or worse. I could write a book on morale in the NHS, for instance, and how it affects performance, having spent over a quarter of a century working in it.

One thing the club desperately needs now, and by that I mean evereyone from the groundsman, through executives and players to the fanbase, is a lifting of the spirits which, rather like Steve Coppell's mood, are unquestionably depressed at the moment. Stadium matters and match results are on one level totally unconnected. But I do believe that a breakthrough in any one of the major issues affecting the future of the club would be likely to have a positive impact in other areas. To try to picture a possible scenario: some time between now and Christmas, Sainsburys' application is approved and town green status is rejected by the Council. Good news at last and huge relief! The chairman, board and executives are delighted, as are most fans. Chairman takes to pitch with microphone (again) before home match and gives rousing speech about his vision for the future of the club. Fired up crowd responds rousingly to players' efforts, etc.etc.

OK, OK, I know I'm hamming it up a bit for effect, but there is a serious point here, and I remain unrepentant in my view that the outcome of these planning issues will determine the long-term health of this club long after the next half dozen results, and possibly even whether we are relegated or not this season, are completely forgotten. I may exaggerate in the interest of trying to press my argument, but I can assure you I am not in the least philosophical about the possibility of going down. No fan is, or could be, and anyone who thinks I lack passion on that score doesn't know me, but at the risk of sounding like a stuck record, there is more at stake.

Those of us opposed to the dismissal of Millen at the moment are not daft. I consider myself a realist and I know if this losing streak continues much longer he'll inevitably have to go. But it will be a solution of last resort and I still back SL's decision to give him as long as he thinks he can, which my guess would be, along with some others here, until about early December at the latest, so that if a new man must be found, we have time to get him in place in time to assess the squad before the January window. In the meantime, you can if you like dispute my use of the word 'screaming' to characterise the calls for Millen's sacking, but whatever you call it, it has risen and continues to rise to a considerable clamour and I remain of the view that it is (a) premature and unhelpful, and (b) a dangerous distraction from another battle, the outcome of which will continue to affect the club's fortunes to a point in the future when I'll be dead and buried and nobody will remember who the hell Keith Millen was.

I rest my case.