Here's A Thought

[Nibor]

How many clubs have changed manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

How many have stuck with a manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

I don't have time to figure out the stats, but my feeling is making the change works less often than sticking with.

[Ben4BCFC]

How many clubs have changed manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

How many have stuck with a manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

I don't have time to figure out the stats, but my feeling is making the change works less often than sticking with.

Especially when the manager has only had 9 games to find his feet with a newly changed squad with low confidence and transfer window now over.

[Riaz]

I understand the view about giving him a chance.

But we look totally disorganised all over the pitch, but especially at the back - and millen was a defender - The defence does not look like it has a centre back in charge!

Where was our defensive players for the 3rd goal? I know we we're going for it, but how did the norwich player have so much space?? and why was JCR the last man.

Things are such a mess on the pitch - that it leads me to think that millen isnt up to the job sadly

[Maesknoll Red]

How many clubs have changed manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

How many have stuck with a manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

I don't have time to figure out the stats, but my feeling is making the change works less often than sticking with.

I don't have the stats, but worth a thought (and I'm not advocating sacking anyone) is that all is not lost.

On 9th December 2003 Crystal Palace were occupying one of the relegation spots, they ended up finishing 6th that season and getting promoted to the Premiership. I'm not deluded enough to believe we are promotion candidates, but we are a long way from certain relegation. They did have a change of Manager on the 22nd December, a certain Mr Dowie took over, but it, so far, has been a bit of a one hit wonder for his career.

[Melksham Red]

Especially when the manager has only had 9 games to find his feet with a newly changed squad with low confidence and transfer window now over.

The squad has quality throughout and it most certainly stronger than anything Johnson ever had. We lack leadership,direction and a plan.

BTW your sig made me laugh

[Nibor]

I understand the view about giving him a chance.

But we look totally disorganised all over the pitch, but especially at the back - and millen was a defender!!

Where was our defensive players for the 3rd goal? I know we we're going for it, but how did the norwich player have so much space?? and why was JCR the last man.

Things are such a mess on the pitch - that it leads me to think that millen isnt up to the job sadly

For me it's nothing to do with giving him a chance, I don't give a flying one about fairness in the face of relegation.

It's about what is most likely to keep us up and on that front there are for me a few reasons not to make a change:

- There are (inconsistently) signs of improvement in performances

- The players ARE putting the effort in and still playing for the manager

- There does not seem to be an obvious, available and appointable candidate who we could be sure would improve things

- Change usually means a period of more uncertainty, confusion and poor results

- Four managers in six months does not make us look like an attractive club to manage at or play for

I agree we do look disorganised on the pitch, I think the stupid system we're trying to play plus the swapping around of personnel is a big factor and the manager can fix that, but also that the players need to take some responsibility and the senior ones need to show some leadership. I just think we should not act in panic because a poor start to the season should not be unexpected by any reasonable person in the circumstances.

[Guest Parson St Station]

For me it's nothing to do with giving him a chance, I don't give a flying one about fairness in the face of relegation.

It's about what is most likely to keep us up and on that front there are for me a few reasons not to make a change:

- There are (inconsistently) signs of improvement in performances

- The players ARE putting the effort in and still playing for the manager

- There does not seem to be an obvious, available and appointable candidate who we could be sure would improve things

- Change usually means a period of more uncertainty, confusion and poor results

- Four managers in six months does not make us look like an attractive club to manage at or play for

I agree we do look disorganised on the pitch, I think the stupid system we're trying to play plus the swapping around of personnel is a big factor and the manager can fix that, but also that the players need to take some responsibility and the senior ones need to show some leadership. I just think we should not act in panic because a poor start to the season should not be unexpected by any reasonable person in the circumstances.

Well i'm not reasonable Robin.

Inconsistant performance

Pitman taking the corner wasn't exactly 'playing for millen'

Plenty of established,proven and availiable managers out there.

Change has equalled a terrible run with a very reasonable squad

I don't care if we have 10 managers in 10 days as long as we find the right one.

77% of 'reasonable people' on here want Millen to go,according to the latest poll.

You agree we look 'disorganised' and have 'a stupid system'

So WTF, just like your other 13,500 posts is the point of this?

13,500. Get a life FFS.

And, just to be sure you understand, I FEEL YOU ARE BY FAR, THE MOST BULLYING MEMBER OF OTIB.

So who's the next Mr Anderson?

I

[Riaz]

For me it's nothing to do with giving him a chance, I don't give a flying one about fairness in the face of relegation.

It's about what is most likely to keep us up and on that front there are for me a few reasons not to make a change:

- There are (inconsistently) signs of improvement in performances

- The players ARE putting the effort in and still playing for the manager

- There does not seem to be an obvious, available and appointable candidate who we could be sure would improve things

- Change usually means a period of more uncertainty, confusion and poor results

- Four managers in six months does not make us look like an attractive club to manage at or play for

I agree we do look disorganised on the pitch, I think the stupid system we're trying to play plus the swapping around of personnel is a big factor and the manager can fix that, but also that the players need to take some responsibility and the senior ones need to show some leadership. I just think we should not act in panic because a poor start to the season should not be unexpected by any reasonable person in the circumstances.

I agree, the players seem like they are still playing for him.

The reason I think we should go for a new man is because your average manager in this division would be able to organise us - and for me thats all we need and I think we would climb the table. We have some very good players, enough to field a team good enough to stay up.

I just think millen it tatically naive - He may have had only 10 games, but you would have thought he would have learned alot already from previous managers - what works and what does not.

if we we're losing by the odd goal, I'd also say there is hope. But we have been beaten easily at home by average teams like norwich, watford & millwall.

Cant see it getting any better until he goes IMO

[Nibor]

Well i'm not reasonable Robin.

Inconsistant performance

Pitman taking the corner wasn't exactly 'playing for millen'

Plenty of established,proven and availiable managers out there.

Change has equalled a terrible run with a very reasonable squad

I don't care if we have 10 managers in 10 days as long as we find the right one.

77% of 'reasonable people' on here want Millen to go,according to the latest poll.

You agree we look 'disorganised' and have 'a stupid system'

So WTF, just like your other 13,500 posts is the point of this?

13,500. Get a life FFS.

And, just to be sure you understand, I FEEL YOU ARE BY FAR, THE MOST BULLYING MEMBER OF OTIB.

So who's the next Mr Anderson?

I

I think you must be quite an insecure person, and if you get that upset over a message board you should probably not use the internet.

[Martyn Hocking]

Norwich last season look like a good example to throw your way Nibor. Destroyed 7-1 on the opening day under the stewardship of a loyal servant who couldn't manage.

He gets the boot, in comes a new, experienced boss, and they end the season promoted. That is what I call decisive leadership from a board of directors not renowned for hiring and firing. SL take note.

And you are a tad aggressive on here, BTW. No odds to me, but others may find it unpleasant.

[Nibor]

Norwich last season look like a good example to throw your way Nibor. Destroyed 7-1 on the opening day under the stewardship of a loyal servant who couldn't manage.

He gets the boot, in comes a new, experienced boss, and they end the season promoted. That is what I call decisive leadership from a board of directors not renowned for hiring and firing. SL take note.

Yes we can all pick out examples to support either side of the argument, but what is the overall picture?

And you are a tad aggressive on here, BTW. No odds to me, but others may find it unpleasant.

No, I'm not. You can read whatever tone you like into a post on a forum.

[CliftonCliff]

And, just to be sure you understand, I FEEL YOU ARE BY FAR, THE MOST BULLYING MEMBER OF OTIB.

Andy,

I don't know what's rattled your cage today, but you do seem to be on the warpath on this and other threads. (I'm minded to bring to your attention the advice in the forum rules where it urges members to "attack the post, not the poster".)

Calm down, mate. I don't think it's on to accuse Nibor of bullying. I don't recall him ever resorting to name-calling or personal abuse. He simply puts forward his arguments forcefully and with a lot of conviction, and they're invariably well written. I don't always agree with him, but you have to respect that. Sorry, but I don't think that in any sense equares to 'bullying'.

CC

[Redcliffe 78]

How many clubs have changed manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

How many have stuck with a manager when in the bottom four and stayed up?

I don't have time to figure out the stats, but my feeling is making the change works less often than sticking with.

The league don't lie after ten games, but then again Blackpools postion wow, really worried though next three games worrying but lets not worry 2 much Mondays r shit, Suicide Tues 2 come Weds a good day.

[CodeRed]

Ok Nibor - It's too time consuming to find ALL the stats! - but lets take last season in the Championship.

This time last year (Oct 09) the bottom 6 were:

19-Barnsley

20-Donny

21-Reading

22-Peterborough

23-Plymouth

24 -Ipswich

and their managerial decisions were:

19-Barnsley - sacked Davey August - stayed up

20-Donny - O'Driscoll no change - stayed up

21-Reading - sacked Rodgers December - stayed up

22-Peterborough- sacked Fergusen November (and then Cooper , and then Gannon) Relegated

23-Plymouth - sacked Sturrock Dec 09 - Relegated

24 -Ipswich - Keane no change - stayed up

Also Relegated of course was Sheff. Wed who wern't in the bottom 6 in Oct 09 (they were 16th) but when they

hit 21st in December Laws was sacked

You can read into that what you will

In the bottom 6 , 4 clubs sacked their managers - 2 stayed up 2 didn't

The only point I would make is that the 2 that didn't sack their managers (Donny & Ipswich) had relatively experienced managers who had had success before and therefore there was maybe a confidence that they had the ability to come through.

But - Sturrock though had been successful in the past - ditto Ferguson- but both were still sacked

I'd compare our situation more with Reading

My own view is that the KM appointment isn't working, and 2 more loses could well see SL act.

The appointment was a hasty one dictated by circumstance, and a choice which when SL WAS given time a few months previously he declined to take.

SL clearly hoped it would work out, possibly with help from an experienced no 2.

Clearly at present those hopes are not being fulfilled on the pitch.

It either improves or SL makes a change - that much is certain.

CR

[FanaticRed]

To be honnest we can look at previous stats till were blue in the face but it doesnt actually prove anything! just ever club and every situation is different! you should always remember that today is tomorrows history, lets look forward rather than backwards at silly stats that mean very little!

[North London Red]

Following on from CodeRed's post above, here are the stats for the 08-09 season in the Championship.

The 10th game was completed on the 4th of October. The bottom six at that point were:

19) Watford

20) Southampton

21) Norwich

22) Barnsley

23) Doncaster

24) Forest

Their managerial decisions were:

19) Watford - got rid of Boothroyd in November. Stayed up

20) Southampton - got rid of Poortvliet in January. Went down

21) Norwich - sacked Roeder in January. Went down

22) Barnsley - stuck with Davey until the end of the season. Stayed up

23) Doncaster - stuck with O'Driscoll. Stayed up

24) Forest - sacked Calderwood in December. Stayed up

The other team to go down was Charlton, who were 14th after ten games. They sacked Pardew in November 2008.

Interesting that the three teams to go down all had managerial change, and that two of the bottom three after ten games stuck with their manager and stayed up.

The most encouraging thing for me is that the team who were bottom after ten games stayed up in each of the last two seasons (Ipswich last year, Forest the year before)

[Nogbad the Bad]

In those 2 seasons how many of the teams mentioned were playing as badly as City and conceding so many goals at home?

I go into a home match these days expecting to see us concede at least 2 and am somewhat relieved if it isn't more. I'm never thinking we are actually going to win. Not sure Reading or QPR will offer much comfort and Cardiff will be rubbing their hands at the prospect of a repeat of last season's massacre and will certainly not be showing any mercy.

How many of the managers named, replaced or not, were so far out of their depth as KM appears to be? Whatever signings, or changes to the team he makes, we look disorganised and weak in more or less every game. We could have had bigger scores against us on occasions but for teams taking their foot off the pedal with the game already won.

Don't forget we have already made a managerial change this season - the departure not being of our making but the choice of replacement being hugely disappointing and bewildering to many fans.

We have nothing at all to draw any confidence from and, as things stand, I dread the thought of our goal difference after the next 3 games.

[North London Red]

In those 2 seasons how many of the teams mentioned were playing as badly as City and conceding so many goals at home?

Forest and Ipswich were both bottom with five points from ten; Forest had conceded 18 and Ipswich had conceded 22. We have six points and 19 goals against, so a comparable record.

Things can and do change. A battling 1-0 win in one of the next three games could have a huge impact on confidence and however unlikely it seems at the moment, the last two years have shown that that the team seemingly adrift after ten games can climb away from trouble.

That said, Millen really does need some results in the next three games (absolute minimum of four points I'd say) otherwise the pressure may well become too much.

[petehinton]

weren't Sunderland in the bottom three when Keane took over?

[Economou]

In those 2 seasons how many of the teams mentioned were playing as badly as City and conceding so many goals at home?

I go into a home match these days expecting to see us concede at least 2 and am somewhat relieved if it isn't more. I'm never thinking we are actually going to win. Not sure Reading or QPR will offer much comfort and Cardiff will be rubbing their hands at the prospect of a repeat of last season's massacre and will certainly not be showing any mercy.

How many of the managers named, replaced or not, were so far out of their depth as KM appears to be? Whatever signings, or changes to the team he makes, we look disorganised and weak in more or less every game. We could have had bigger scores against us on occasions but for teams taking their foot off the pedal with the game already won.

Don't forget we have already made a managerial change this season - the departure not being of our making but the choice of replacement being hugely disappointing and bewildering to many fans.

We have nothing at all to draw any confidence from and, as things stand, I dread the thought of our goal difference after the next 3 games.

I was optimistic prior to the Burnley match, and after, but have now sadly come round to your way of thinking.

[mozo]

This season is also loosely reminiscent of our previous relegation year.

We had big signings that raised expectation, onely one early win and manager turmoil early on that we never recovered from.

That year our defence was the problem as it is now. We finIshed rock bottom with a whimper...

[Mr Popodopolous]

Hard one really- 4 amangers in a calendar year is not great really, new manager will want their own players in come January. This can breed more instability.

On the other hand our home record this season is catastrophic- both in terms of points gained and goals conceded. Something has to give in either case.

[Onthefence]

Millen might be a novice manager but he has been at the club for long enough to know it and the players inside out. The squad may have potential but this is an unforgiving league and all too soon we could be adrift at the foot of the table with even less confidence than we have now.

It's been coming ever since our playoff season. We did not strengthen the squad and bring in a quality Striker when we had the chance to consolidate our position at the top of the table - all City fans new that was the card to play at the time. Im sorry but loyalty goes out of the window when you have such an opportunity - you can't be nice in business.

As I see it giving Millen time to turn things around is not a calculated gamble or the right thing to do - it's pure stupidity.

[The Casual Connoisseur]

Were looking to hard at stats, the main factors for me are:

Millen is very inexperienced as a first tram manager.

We don't have a settled formation that is effective.

We are leaking goals left right and centre.

We still haven't solved our left sided defensive problem.

We are very poor at home.

We are pretty much constantly tinkering with personnel.

Our next few games look very, very tough.

We are bottom of the league and in danger with our next three games of staying there.

We are still playing players out of position (Rose).

I could go on and on......and on and on etc

[GrahamC]

This season is also loosely reminiscent of our previous relegation year.

We had big signings that raised expectation, onely one early win and manager turmoil early on that we never recovered from.

That year our defence was the problem as it is now. We finIshed rock bottom with a whimper...

Too right.

I came out of Saturday's match not only thinking that we'd go down just like in 1998, but that we'd also finish 24th again.

I think Benny was a decent man who inherited a mess and I think the same of KM, but I also reckon that if we'd appointed an experienced (British) boss in 1998 we'd have made a better fist of it, does anyone else see the parallel?

[red badger]

Too right.

I came out of Saturday's match not only thinking that we'd go down just like in 1998, but that we'd also finish 24th again.

I think Benny was a decent man who inherited a mess and I think the same of KM, but I also reckon that if we'd appointed an experienced (British) boss in 1998 we'd have made a better fist of it, does anyone else see the parallel?

I was looking at the record book yesterday - the same thing struck me. I was SO excited that summer...it was all over by the end of November...we have an abysmal record of building on the success of managers who leave us.

[red badger]

Yes we can all pick out examples to support either side of the argument, but what is the overall picture?

No, I'm not. You can read whatever tone you like into a post on a forum.

Sometimes you write really well Nibor. As I've said before. But you do, I'm afraid, appear to have a desire to get the last word on everything. Even when, as with the post above, you have nothing much to say. As if what you write was the self evident truth. Which it isn't. This an forum for opinion...most of it, by definition, fairly ill informed

You can't "read whatever tone you want into a post". That's nonsense. You intend to come across as a man who really doesn't care to be challenged. Take a look at that picture. Fine, but don't pretend otherwise. Believe me that attitude puts off new posters who dislike the sound of the big gorillas of this forum beating their chests.

Which has got that off mine.

oh - and let's keep KM for a bit longer. He's doing a great job.

[Guest Parson St Station]

Andy,

I don't know what's rattled your cage today, but you do seem to be on the warpath on this and other threads. (I'm minded to bring to your attention the advice in the forum rules where it urges members to "attack the post, not the poster".)

Calm down, mate. I don't think it's on to accuse Nibor of bullying. I don't recall him ever resorting to name-calling or personal abuse. He simply puts forward his arguments forcefully and with a lot of conviction, and they're invariably well written. I don't always agree with him, but you have to respect that. Sorry, but I don't think that in any sense equares to 'bullying'.

CC

Sorry Cliff , your right.My wife has been fighting the big 'C' for 7 years and we just found she needs major surgery,which will be done in 2 weeks time.

This will be her 6th op, 3rd session of chemo and 3rd of radiotherapy.

And so we can't come home this year.

It all got a bit much, and I forgot my own rule.Never post drunk and angry.

Doesn't change my opinion of Nibor,but I could have been much more polite about it.

Andy

[havanatopia]

I might forgive you myself for calling me thick after hearing that news. I had a strong feeling something was not quite right because I have been acused of things in the past but lacking a significant number of brain cells is a new one. I hope your wife has some good news soon and can be made as comfortable as is possible.

[Guest Parson St Station]

I might forgive you myself for calling me thick after hearing that news. I had a strong feeling something was not quite right because I have been acused of things in the past but lacking a significant number of brain cells is a new one. I hope your wife has some good news soon and can be made as comfortable as is possible.

Thankyou.