A Little Worrying

[BCFC_Dan]

Apologies if this needs moving due to not being strictly BCFC-related.

Bolton Wanderers have announced a loss of £35.4m for the last year.

Bolton are in the sort of position we are aspiring to reach: a relatively stable Premier League club with a modern stadium. If they are losing sums of this magnitude despite Premier League income and new stadium revenue it's certainly worrying as we seem to be working on the assumption that these things will allow City to break even.

I've not done anything more than read the article, and it's true that these are tough times economically and things may be better by the time City gets there, so perhaps things aren't as bad as all that, but it's still interesting and at least slightly concerning.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-10/bolton-wanderers-loss-soars-to-35-million-pounds-as-player-costs-rise.html

[Frome Valley]

Apologies if this needs moving due to not being strictly BCFC-related.

Bolton Wanderers have announced a loss of £35.4m for the last year.

Bolton are in the sort of position we are aspiring to reach: a relatively stable Premier League club with a modern stadium. If they are losing sums of this magnitude despite Premier League income and new stadium revenue it's certainly worrying as we seem to be working on the assumption that these things will allow City to break even.

I've not done anything more than read the article, and it's true that these are tough times economically and things may be better by the time City gets there, so perhaps things aren't as bad as all that, but it's still interesting and at least slightly concerning.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2010-11-10/bolton-wanderers-loss-soars-to-35-million-pounds-as-player-costs-rise.html

The overwhelming majority of football clubs lose money.

Maybe somebody can enlighten here, does ANY club with a new stadium not lose money year upon year?

[Red]

Back in the days of the old first division, we had coaches coming from Plymouth, Cornwall, all over the place.

If and when we get into the prem, believe me the support will come out of the woodwork.

Bristol has a big area to draw support from, with the midlands being the nearest for prem teams.

Looking forward to it again

[BCFC_Dan]

The overwhelming majority of football clubs lose money.

Maybe somebody can enlighten here, does ANY club with a new stadium not lose money year upon year?

Arsenal.

The point is that we're being told that the new stadium (and ideally Premier League football) will allow the club to break even or at least minimise losses, yet here is a club with a new stadium and Premier League football losing 3 times what City did last year.

[Frome Valley]

Arsenal.

The point is that we're being told that the new stadium (and ideally Premier League football) will allow the club to break even or at least minimise losses, yet here is a club with a new stadium and Premier League football losing 3 times what City did last year.

I understand your point.

Bolton, Coventry, Derby, Leicester, Hull, Middlesbrough, Reading, Southampton, Stoke and Wigan don't operate at a profit.

Some have huge financial losses.

[CiderHider]

The FA should do more to cap wages, but they get bugger all support from the government who are powerless to do anything either, what a joke. Modern day football is capitalism at its finest.

[lanceloto]

Bolton wouldn't get the sort of income Bristol would, we are looking for conferencing and music incomes here, they lose all of that income to Manchester (where the Facilities are great, and in abundance). In Bristol there are no rivals especially to the south west. Which is also where our premier league support will come from. quick drive up from Cornwall to watch Man U or Chelsea its a no brainer. I genuinely think If we can get into the Premier league with a new stadium the finances will sort themselves out, its getting there that is the problem.

[Frome Valley]

Bolton wouldn't get the sort of income Bristol would, we are looking for conferencing and music incomes here, they lose all of that income to Manchester (where the Facilities are great, and in abundance). In Bristol there are no rivals especially to the south west. Which is also where our premier league support will come from. quick drive up from Cornwall to watch Man U or Chelsea its a no brainer. I genuinely think If we can get into the Premier league with a new stadium the finances will sort themselves out, its getting there that is the problem.

Can you give an example of the business model being followed?

At this point it has not been revealed if the non matchday revenue will actually go to the football club.

[myol'man]

I remember going to Wembley for the first of our Freight Rover finals vs Bolton in '86,

crowd was about 54,000, of which we had about 38,000,

so even though, historically, Bolton have been the more succesful ,

they have never been able to attract big crowds, because there are so many big football clubs in Lancashire.

I think we would get much higher crowds in the Prem than we did in the old 1st division days

because there are many more 'floating' or neutral fans who would come to see the ooposition.

[Red Ferret]

Haven't Burnley just posted massive profits (£17m or something) for this year?

They don't have a new stadium

[Frome Valley]

I remember going to Wembley for the first of our Freight Rover finals vs Bolton in '86,

crowd was about 54,000, of which we had about 38,000,

so even though, historically, Bolton have been the more succesful ,

they have never been able to attract big crowds, because there are so many big football clubs in Lancashire.

I think we would get much higher crowds in the Prem than we did in the old 1st division days

because there are many more 'floating' or neutral fans who would come to see the ooposition.

On averages of 27000 Stoke lose money.

At Championship level with averages of 29000 Derby lost more money than Bristol City.

[Loderingo]

The amount of profit/loss depends on the amount spent on players and wages as well as the income. Stoke have I think spent reasonably well since they were promoted.

In our case I don't see how an increase in income could be a bad thing as it will either allow us to reduce the losses or to improve the side.

[simonwheeler]

Apologies if this needs moving due to not being strictly BCFC-related.

Bolton Wanderers have announced a loss of £35.4m for the last year.

Bolton are in the sort of position we are aspiring to reach: a relatively stable Premier League club with a modern stadium. If they are losing sums of this magnitude despite Premier League income and new stadium revenue it's certainly worrying as we seem to be working on the assumption that these things will allow City to break even.

I've not done anything more than read the article, and it's true that these are tough times economically and things may be better by the time City gets there, so perhaps things aren't as bad as all that, but it's still interesting and at least slightly concerning.

http://www.bloomberg...costs-rise.html

PLUS in my experience an absolutely ZERO atmosphere in new sterile stadiums - not that I am against moving from beloved Ashton (much)

[GrahamC]

Haven't Burnley just posted massive profits (£17m or something) for this year?

They don't have a new stadium

Yep, they made a profit of £14.4M, but mainly because they spent very cautiously after getting promoted.

I doubt those figures include the compensation they got from Bolton for Owen Coyle or the near £7M they got from Wolves this summer for Steven Fletcher, either.

[Judge Roughneck]

Arsenal.

Arsenal still haven't paid for their stadium yet. Their latest accounts show the figure still owing is around £240-250m.

[lanceloto]

Can you give an example of the business model being followed?

At this point it has not been revealed if the non matchday revenue will actually go to the football club.

I put this question forward for Lansdowns interview, Basically who will own the stadium what will the business model be? and it was asked

I'll paste in the answer here...

You've got Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Ltd under Bristol City Holdings...who would own the stadium?

The owner as it stands, and its subject to advice on tax and various other things, would be Ashton Gate Ltd. It sits within the Bristol City Holdings Group. That's always been my intention and it's still the case.

"The Football Club is dependent on the stadium and the stadium is dependent on the Football Club. People have questioned the motives of separating the stadium company with the worry of flogging it off and asset stripping. That's not the case.

"You put it there so it can be managed and identified properly. It can be seen in its own right as a business.

"The Football Club and the team need to be in a separate business to do the same. It knows what money its making and spending. The football team doesn't finance the stadium and the stadium doesn't finance the football team; they deal with themselves independently."

So essentially from what I can make out the business model would be the same as the current. Ashton Gate is a separate entity to BCFC but they back each other up. I think with this you have to remember, its in the stadium and Lansdowns interest that the football club does well. If he wanted a conference centre only (and he could make lots of money) then he could have built an office block in the City Centre and not had the club taking his profits. I think its through his passion for the club that he wants to tie the businesses together.

[nebristolred]

Haven't Burnley just posted massive profits (£17m or something) for this year?

They don't have a new stadium

But their ground is modern enough to allow for other revenue. Ours isn't.

[mark43]

I find the situation all very worrying, not just for us but the game in general. It seems more and more clubs need to have somebody pilling in the cash to keep going. Its already difficult for a lot of fans to continue to support their team due to ticket prices, and its only getting worse.

[Portland Bill]

Theres more money coming into football than ever before,but most of it is being taken out by overhyped players wages.

[InCider]

Arsenal.

The point is that we're being told that the new stadium (and ideally Premier League football) will allow the club to break even or at least minimise losses, yet here is a club with a new stadium and Premier League football losing 3 times what City did last year.

Pompey were losing much more Bolton whilst in the Premier League and didn't have a new stadium. Sunderland with a similar sized stadium (to Bolton's ground and our plans) lost just over 2m last year which is much less than our current losses. The link between ourselves and Bolton is tenuous. There are so many other factors to consider (i.e. transfers, wages, other revenue, etc ...). Most clubs lose money, new stadium or not, but it is hoped a new stadium would minimise our losses. I'm sure that SL has a viable business plan.

[Davros]

Haven't Burnley just posted massive profits (£17m or something) for this year?

They don't have a new stadium

It's called promotion and then not spending any of the money!

[NickJ]

MIDDLESBROUGH FOOTBALL CLUB AND ATHLETIC COMPANY HOLDINGS LTD

December 2006 £13m loss

December 2007 £8m loss

December 2008 £13m loss

SOUTHAMPTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED

June 2007 £3m loss

June 2008 £5m loss

June 2009 £9m loss

SKY BLUE SPORTS & LEISURE LTD

May 2008 £4m loss

May 2009 £8m loss

THE DERBY COUNTY FOOTBALL CLUB LTD

June 2007 £13m loss

June 2008 £2m profit

June 2009 £15m loss

DARLINGTON FOOTBALL CLUB (2009) LTD

- No results yet but owned by PRESTIGE CARE LTD, a company whose major activity is "provision of residential care for the elderly".

- Attract attendances of 2,000 to their "build the stadium and they will come" 25,000 seater in the middle nowhere.

STOKE CITY FOOTBALL CLUB LTD

May 2007 £3m loss

May 2008 £4m loss

May 2009 Break even

I could go on, but you get the picture.

I am intrigued to find out how Bristol City will achieve something that no other club has managed.

[Bar BS3]

MIDDLESBROUGH FOOTBALL CLUB AND ATHLETIC COMPANY HOLDINGS LTD

December 2006 £13m loss

December 2007 £8m loss

December 2008 £13m loss

SOUTHAMPTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED

June 2007 £3m loss

June 2008 £5m loss

June 2009 £9m loss

SKY BLUE SPORTS & LEISURE LTD

May 2008 £4m loss

May 2009 £8m loss

THE DERBY COUNTY FOOTBALL CLUB LTD

June 2007 £13m loss

June 2008 £2m profit

June 2009 £15m loss

DARLINGTON FOOTBALL CLUB (2009) LTD

- No results yet but owned by PRESTIGE CARE LTD, a company whose major activity is "provision of residential care for the elderly".

- Attract attendances of 2,000 to their "build the stadium and they will come" 25,000 seater in the middle nowhere.

STOKE CITY FOOTBALL CLUB LTD

May 2007 £3m loss

May 2008 £4m loss

May 2009 Break even

I could go on, but you get the picture.

I am intrigued to find out how Bristol City will achieve something that no other club has managed.

One recently promoted and sustained club promoted to the premier league there, and i would think Sir Steve Lansdown would be comfortable with the figures that stoke have posted, especially as i don't believe (could be wrong) but their capacity is not 30,000 with a possible increase to 40,000. Is not generally used as a major concert venue and they are much closer to many other main event cities than we are.

If we could replicate Stokes achievements over the last 3 years (even with that horrible **** in charge, then i think most would be quite satisified with that!)

[NickJ]

One recently promoted and sustained club promoted to the premier league there, and i would think Sir Steve Lansdown would be comfortable with the figures that stoke have posted, especially as i don't believe (could be wrong) but their capacity is not 30,000 with a possible increase to 40,000. Is not generally used as a major concert venue and they are much closer to many other main event cities than we are.

If we could replicate Stokes achievements over the last 3 years (even with that horrible **** in charge, then i think most would be quite satisified with that!)

As I said I could go on and provide the loss making results of every single club with a new stadium.

So I'm still eager to find out how Bristol City will achieve something that no other club has and still curious as to how loss making in a new stadium will be better than solvent at Ashton Gate, as we were a few years back.

Sir Steve says a new stadium is the only viable option, the facts do not support that.

[gater2]

Germany is the way forward for football club ownership and the way footbal should be run! They have a 50+1 rule where fans will always hold the majority and therefore veto any decisions which will hurt the club like this. Highest average attendances in Europe, best atmosphere anywhere in Europe (ten times the atmosphere of English football) and you can get in to to flight games for a tenner. Almost no German clubs run at a loss either as far as I'm aware. I am very jealous of the German system, but I think we might be moving that way in the next few years. The UEFA Financial Fair Play rules which will come in 2012-13 will really help with this, but the FA need to get serious about implementing this kind of thing in the whole of the English game.

Finally Scudamore needs to realise English football should be there to serve the English fans and not SE Asia. It's embarrassing that he's a City fan!

[Frome Valley]

I put this question forward for Lansdowns interview, Basically who will own the stadium what will the business model be? and it was asked

I'll paste in the answer here...

You've got Bristol City FC and Ashton Gate Ltd under Bristol City Holdings...who would own the stadium?

The owner as it stands, and its subject to advice on tax and various other things, would be Ashton Gate Ltd. It sits within the Bristol City Holdings Group. That's always been my intention and it's still the case.

"The Football Club is dependent on the stadium and the stadium is dependent on the Football Club. People have questioned the motives of separating the stadium company with the worry of flogging it off and asset stripping. That's not the case.

"You put it there so it can be managed and identified properly. It can be seen in its own right as a business.

"The Football Club and the team need to be in a separate business to do the same. It knows what money its making and spending. The football team doesn't finance the stadium and the stadium doesn't finance the football team; they deal with themselves independently."

So essentially from what I can make out the business model would be the same as the current. Ashton Gate is a separate entity to BCFC but they back each other up. I think with this you have to remember, its in the stadium and Lansdowns interest that the football club does well. If he wanted a conference centre only (and he could make lots of money) then he could have built an office block in the City Centre and not had the club taking his profits. I think its through his passion for the club that he wants to tie the businesses together.

Bristol City FC are moving because we as fans have been informed that Ashton Gate cannot support a championship squad. So the move is all about the stadium supporting financially the football team.

I will ask again what example are Bristol City modelling this on? The losses at comparable clubs are often higher and those clubs are still bankrolled by wealthy owners.

[Barrs Court Red]

As I said I could go on and provide the loss making results of every single club with a new stadium.

So I'm still eager to find out how Bristol City will achieve something that no other club has and still curious as to how loss making in a new stadium will be better than solvent at Ashton Gate, as we were a few years back.

Sir Steve says a new stadium is the only viable option, the facts do not support that.

Or why don't you do something subjective, and show what revenues the stadium complex's make the clubs above what they had in place before.

[Slave to the rhythm]

Or why don't you do something subjective, and show what revenues the stadium complex's make the clubs above what they had in place before.

But, don't forget to also include the extra costs associated with the new stadiums, particularly the interest payments associated with the debt incurred to build the stadium in the first place.

[NickJ]

Or why don't you do something subjective, and show what revenues the stadium complex's make the clubs above what they had in place before.

Silly post but I will answer anyway.

If you were in business with income of £100 and costs of £80 (Bristol City 10 years ago), and somebody said you could go to income of £150 and costs of £180, you would be happy with that, would you?

Or, if your income was £100 and costs of £120 (Bristol City now), and somebody said you could you could go to income of £150 and costs of £180, that would be somehow better would it?

Thats the facts, and if you want subjectivity, the atmospheres at Cardiff, Middlesbrough and Swansea have been crap this saeson, whereas Portsmouth at Fratton was electric.

[Barrs Court Red]

You're basing our figures on what?