A Little Worrying

[NickJ]

You're basing our figures on what?

Historic figures - published accounts.

Future figures - published accounts of every other club with a new stadium.

And I'm basing my opinion (stadium atmospheres) on an exhaustive survey of matchday experiences across the country.

[Avalonred]

You're basing our figures on what?

I wouldn't bother, he's his mind made up and is on a crusade...... apparently we're all not worthy of posting an objection to his nonsense and should stick to 'simple' threads that we can understand.......

[Barrs Court Red]

Amazing to think that someone a month a go stated they knew nothing about the stadium plan now knows everything not only about Ashton Vale but every club with a new ground........

[Barrs Court Red]

Amazing to think that someone a month a go stated they knew nothing about the stadium plan now knows everything not only about Ashton Vale but every club with a new ground........

[NickJ]

I wouldn't bother, he's his mind made up and is on a crusade...... apparently we're all not worthy of posting an objection to his nonsense and should stick to 'simple' threads that we can understand.......

The first part of your post you are probably right, and its a crusade backed up by hard facts and observations from following City around the country.

The second part of your post is ridiculous, I have never said that or even suggested it. Feel free to come up with reasons in favour of your view rather than making false statements, your inference that I have patronised is itself patronising.

[NickJ]

Amazing to think that someone a month a go stated they knew nothing about the stadium plan now knows everything not only about Ashton Vale but every club with a new ground........

Nobody knows the detail of the stadium plans or its finances, that is information relating to Bristol City that has not been released.

I do not claim to know everything, I just post on here what I do know, and my opinions based on experiences of following City around the country.

You asked a question, I gave the answer. In the apparent absence of a coherent argument to back up your opinion, whatever it is, you choose to attack me rather than my posts.

Have a go at explaining why a loss in a new stadium with a shite atmosphere is going to be better than a loss in a stadium with a good atmosphere.

[lanceloto]

Nobody knows the detail of the stadium plans or its finances, that is information relating to Bristol City that has not been released.

I do not claim to know everything, I just post on here what I do know, and my opinions based on experiences of following City around the country.

You asked a question, I gave the answer. In the apparent absence of a coherent argument to back up your opinion, whatever it is, you choose to attack me rather than my posts.

Have a go at explaining why a loss in a new stadium with a shite atmosphere is going to be better than a loss in a stadium with a good atmosphere.

What makes you so sure that the atmosphere in the (as of yet) unbuilt stadium, would be bad?

I think you will find that Ashton Gate was a new stadium once and the atmosphere there isnt bad, The atmosphere is what the fans make it. You seam to be all about Ashton Gate being this great stadium with "electric atmosphere", from what I have seen of other New stadiums the atmosphere has been just as good as Ashton Gate.

[BCFC_Dan]

Except Ashton Gate never was a new stadium really. It's been built up over the years and first saw football back in the days before people really went along to "support" a team, they simply went to watch a match (funnily enough, much like the sort of people some are afraid the new stadium will attract.)

[Avalonred]

The first part of your post you are probably right, and its a crusade backed up by hard facts and observations from following City around the country.

The second part of your post is ridiculous, I have never said that or even suggested it. Feel free to come up with reasons in favour of your view rather than making false statements, your inference that I have patronised is itself patronising.

Errmm? Ah yes...... and I quote, "I suggest if this is all a bit too deep, you go over to the thread discussing how many we will take to Leeds."

You sir are a dick. sorry, was that out loud?

[Barrs Court Red]

Nobody knows the detail of the stadium plans or its finances, that is information relating to Bristol City that has not been released.

Yet you claim it will make a loss.

I do not claim to know everything, I just post on here what I do know, and my opinions based on experiences of following City around the country.

But you post about potential losses like they're facts.

You asked a question, I gave the answer. In the apparent absence of a coherent argument to back up your opinion, whatever it is, you choose to attack me rather than my posts.

I'm pointing out that you're dressing up supposistion as fact.

Have a go at explaining why a loss in a new stadium with a shite atmosphere is going to be better than a loss in a stadium with a good atmosphere.

Again, loss? You don't know that do you, yet you pretend it's a fact.

All you do is claim we'll lose money, and that the atmosphere will be poor. I can agree with the latter, but don't really care. It's not great now, and apart from 2 good years when the East End opened it was dire for a decade. What makes you so sure that we wont see a repeat of that decade? Again, you base your opinion on something that isn't tangible due to the amount of variables involved, while also overlooking our not too distant past.

In fairness, considering your snide remarks about fans in other threads, I find it rather sad you have the cheek to claim "I'm attacking you" Boo hoo.

[lanceloto]

From what I have read, the options are not loss at ashton Gate or loss at Ashton Vale. It is "Loss" or at best "break even" at ashton Gate compared with actual possibility to make a profit at Ashton Vale.

Why would you rather we go bankrupt at Ashton Gate instead actually having a go at trying to build the team and make it successful at Ashton Vale?

[NickJ]

Errmm? Ah yes...... and I quote, "I suggest if this is all a bit too deep, you go over to the thread discussing how many we will take to Leeds."

You sir are a dick. sorry, was that out loud?

A comment made in response to a patronising one made by you and which I prefaced with: I dont like to resort to rude replies however in your case for those remarks I will make an exception.

I wont waste my time replying to any further of your comments unless you are able to produce a coherent argument in favour of your views - which you still havent - rather than making pathetic digs.

[NickJ]

[chinapig]

MIDDLESBROUGH FOOTBALL CLUB AND ATHLETIC COMPANY HOLDINGS LTD

December 2006 £13m loss

December 2007 £8m loss

December 2008 £13m loss

SOUTHAMPTON FOOTBALL CLUB LIMITED

June 2007 £3m loss

June 2008 £5m loss

June 2009 £9m loss

SKY BLUE SPORTS & LEISURE LTD

May 2008 £4m loss

May 2009 £8m loss

THE DERBY COUNTY FOOTBALL CLUB LTD

June 2007 £13m loss

June 2008 £2m profit

June 2009 £15m loss

DARLINGTON FOOTBALL CLUB (2009) LTD

- No results yet but owned by PRESTIGE CARE LTD, a company whose major activity is "provision of residential care for the elderly".

- Attract attendances of 2,000 to their "build the stadium and they will come" 25,000 seater in the middle nowhere.

STOKE CITY FOOTBALL CLUB LTD

May 2007 £3m loss

May 2008 £4m loss

May 2009 Break even

I could go on, but you get the picture.

I am intrigued to find out how Bristol City will achieve something that no other club has managed.

Well researched but you assume that there is a simple correlation between a new stadium and losses and no other factors. For instance Boro, Derby and Saints have fallen out of the Prem in recent times and no doubt paid the price of carrying high wages with them. Coventry don't own their stadium and Derby were horribly mismanaged on and off the field (all the more reason why I am impressed with what Nigel Clough is doing as his budget is cut further each year). Darlington had a crooked Chairman. The most obvious comparison would be with Stoke in terms of potential I would think, and given that they have their very own Steve Lansdown in Peter Coates. I remain convinced by the case for a new stadium based on non-match day revenue we cannot generate at AG.

[SC_Red]

[lanceloto]

[Slave to the rhythm]

you seem to be saying Lansdown has looked at both rebuilding the Gate and building a new stadium and decided to go with the one thats going to cost him and the club a lot more money in the long run. Why would he do that?

I think that a lot of the impetus behind the building of a new stadium is because Mr Lansdown wants to leave a legacy to the City of Bristol. In other words, he wants his name to live on after he's gone, just like Colston, Dolman et al.

Unless we can establish ourselves in the Premier League, the economics of the new stadium don't really add up, to be honest, but I think there's a lot more going on than just finances and economics.

[NickJ]

Well researched but you assume that there is a simple correlation between a new stadium and losses and no other factors. For instance Boro, Derby and Saints have fallen out of the Prem in recent times and no doubt paid the price of carrying high wages with them. Coventry don't own their stadium and Derby were horribly mismanaged on and off the field (all the more reason why I am impressed with what Nigel Clough is doing as his budget is cut further each year). Darlington had a crooked Chairman. The most obvious comparison would be with Stoke in terms of potential I would think, and given that they have their very own Steve Lansdown in Peter Coates. I remain convinced by the case for a new stadium based on non-match day revenue we cannot generate at AG.

I haven't assumed anything, there is no need to. The examples I gave and for which you have provided explanations arent the only ones. EVERY other club with a new stadium continue to make losses, including the club mentioned at the outset of this thread - Bolton, who currently sit very successfully 6th in the Premier League.

In reply to the poster who asks, essentially, "why would Steve Lansdown want to proceed with a project if the experience of every other club is that losses will result?" - I dont know. Im just pointing out that the reasons given for the stadium do not correlate with the experience of every other club and I'm curious as to what Bristol City will do to buck that trend.

[Avalonred]

Might I suggest a quick look at the stadium plans, I'm sure you've all popped onto the BCC website a had a good look through the proposed stadium planning application...... haven't you?

Follow THIS link and enter the application number 09/02242/P

go to the last tab and press enter.

The world will open to a wonderous list of PDF documents associated with the application........

Some that you may find interesting are the following:-

DRAWING-529042.PDF

DRAWING-529007.PDF

DRAWING-529053.PDF

DRAWING-529513.PDF

DRAWING-529002.PDF

You will see a 'Bowl-like' stadium... at least the seating is..... the roof however is multi-level and square panels, much like the current stadium at AG, the two ends being lower to the seating, the sides being at a higher level.

Amazing what you can find if you really want to.

[Frome Valley]

Might I suggest a quick look at the stadium plans, I'm sure you've all popped onto the BCC website a had a good look through the proposed stadium planning application...... haven't you?

Follow THIS link and enter the application number 09/02242/P

go to the last tab and press enter.

The world will open to a wonderous list of PDF documents associated with the application........

Some that you may find interesting are the following:-

DRAWING-529042.PDF

DRAWING-529007.PDF

DRAWING-529053.PDF

DRAWING-529513.PDF

DRAWING-529002.PDF

You will see a 'Bowl-like' stadium... at least the seating is..... the roof however is multi-level and square panels, much like the current stadium at AG, the two ends being lower to the seating, the sides being at a higher level.

Amazing what you can find if you really want to.

The architect responsible for the design calls his design a bowl.

If you really want to check the position of exits, rake of seating and number of seats per row v Stadium MK and you will see they are almost exact in the lower section of the design.

The design intent is to be nothing like Ashton Gate, it is all about being uniform and symetrical.

[Avalonred]

I wont waste my time replying to any further of your comments unless you are able to produce a coherent argument in favour of your views - which you still havent - rather than making pathetic digs.

..... One will place ones digits in ones ears and say "la de da de da de da" many times over and over until you leave one alone!

[Avalonred]

The architect responsible for the design calls his design a bowl.

It's not the seating arrangement which causes the acoustic dampening, it's the roof design, most modern stadii (stadiums?) are designed to reduce the acoustic levels in the surrouding areas, which may disturb residents of nearby housing.

The roof is designed to keep you dry, give 100% views around the whole seating, keep the grass alive (hopefully, unlike Wembley)) and to let the sound out vertically. The unfortunate part is the reduction in atmosphere, most designs originating in foreign countries (like the USA) where the acoustics are less important. Unless you can close the roof (as per CMS) the sound will just 'go'.

My thoughts anyway.....

[Frome Valley]

It's not the seating arrangement which causes the acoustic dampening, it's the roof design, most modern stadii (stadiums?) are designed to reduce the acoustic levels in the surrouding areas, which may disturb residents of nearby housing.

The roof is designed to keep you dry, give 100% views around the whole seating, keep the grass alive (hopefully, unlike Wembley)) and to let the sound out vertically. The unfortunate part is the reduction in atmosphere, most designs originating in foreign countries (like the USA) where the acoustics are less important. Unless you can close the roof (as per CMS) the sound will just 'go'.

My thoughts anyway.....

And the design of Ashton Vale will be no different.

The architect stated fans assertions that an end of the stadium should have an enclosed "end" were wrong.

[chinapig]

I haven't assumed anything, there is no need to. The examples I gave and for which you have provided explanations arent the only ones. EVERY other club with a new stadium continue to make losses, including the club mentioned at the outset of this thread - Bolton, who currently sit very successfully 6th in the Premier League.

In reply to the poster who asks, essentially, "why would Steve Lansdown want to proceed with a project if the experience of every other club is that losses will result?" - I dont know. Im just pointing out that the reasons given for the stadium do not correlate with the experience of every other club and I'm curious as to what Bristol City will do to buck that trend.

Thanks, and I'm not suggesting you do not raise legitimate points and raise a fair question. I do wonder however whether all the clubs who have not built new stadiums are therefore in profit. In other words I still think in any given case the presence or not of a new stadium will not be the sole factor, life and business rarely being that simple. The financial state of football in general seems to me to be far more a consequence of the astronomical escalation in wages (at least at the top two levels) than anything else. many of the clubs you mention would likely still be in dire straits even without a new stadium precisely because of that. The Premier League in particular got itself a fortune from Sky and squandered it and continues to squander it that way. For me investment in infrastructure is invariably better than escalating current expenditure. Not that British business and government ever seem to have grasped that point. Bonuses all round folks?

[NickJ]

Might I suggest a quick look at the stadium plans, I'm sure you've all popped onto the BCC website a had a good look through the proposed stadium planning application...... haven't you?

Follow THIS link and enter the application number 09/02242/P

go to the last tab and press enter.

The world will open to a wonderous list of PDF documents associated with the application........

Some that you may find interesting are the following:-

DRAWING-529042.PDF

DRAWING-529007.PDF

DRAWING-529053.PDF

DRAWING-529513.PDF

DRAWING-529002.PDF

You will see a 'Bowl-like' stadium... at least the seating is..... the roof however is multi-level and square panels, much like the current stadium at AG, the two ends being lower to the seating, the sides being at a higher level.

Amazing what you can find if you really want to.

Thanks, some useful information at last.

I will look at the drawings later, but the first thing I notice is that there are 3 applicants to the project:

Ashton Gate Ltd - whose directors are Lansdown, Dawe, Harman and Sexstone.

Ashton Vale Projects LLP - whose members are various wealthy individuals and a couple of companies including one for example being a Totnes based company which is in the business of selling and developing real estate.

Vence LLP - whose members are Steve and Jon Lansdown.

I will make an assumption here.

The members of the LLP's are presumably funding the project - ie not all being funded by Lansdown - and will therefore be looking to make money out of it. So anyone supporting the Ashton Vale project and fighting against the village green are doing so for the benefit not just of Bristol City but for the benefit of the investors.

That seems a right royal result for the investors, but apologies if I've made 5 from 2 and 2.

[BCFC_Dan]

I will make an assumption here.

The members of the LLP's are presumably funding the project - ie not all being funded by Lansdown - and will therefore be looking to make money out of it. So anyone supporting the Ashton Vale project and fighting against the village green are doing so for the benefit not just of Bristol City but for the benefit of the investors.

That seems a right royal result for the investors, but apologies if I've made 5 from 2 and 2.

Are you pointing this out because you think it's a bad thing?

You said "for the benefit not just of Bristol City but for the benefit of the investors", so you accept that there is some benefit to Bristol City. Why, then, should the investors not benefit as well?

[Slave to the rhythm]

Thanks, some useful information at last.

I will look at the drawings later, but the first thing I notice is that there are 3 applicants to the project:

Ashton Gate Ltd - whose directors are Lansdown, Dawe, Harman and Sexstone.

Ashton Vale Projects LLP - whose members are various wealthy individuals and a couple of companies including one for example being a Totnes based company which is in the business of selling and developing real estate.

Vence LLP - whose members are Steve and Jon Lansdown.

I will make an assumption here.

The members of the LLP's are presumably funding the project - ie not all being funded by Lansdown - and will therefore be looking to make money out of it. So anyone supporting the Ashton Vale project and fighting against the village green are doing so for the benefit not just of Bristol City but for the benefit of the investors.

That seems a right royal result for the investors, but apologies if I've made 5 from 2 and 2.

This is news? Some people on here have been pointing out for QUITE SOME TIME NOW that the football club is unlikely to share significantly (if at all) in the non-football revenue, as that will belong fairly and squarely to those who actually paid for, and own, the stadium (in other words, Mr Lansdown personally, and his business associates).

I thought everybody had accepted that fact by now.

[WellRedPhil]

I wouldn't bother, he's his mind made up and is on a crusade...... apparently we're all not worthy of posting an objection to his nonsense and should stick to 'simple' threads that we can understand.......

He is making some good points tbf. This thread has been an excellent read and I must admit I think Nick J has argued his case very well, using the accounts and figures of other clubs in his summary. I am not saying I agree entirely with what he says, nor that I'm against the new stadium, but I do believe that if someone voices an opinion on this forum that is not in favour of the Ashton Vale project they are often shot down regardless of the point they are making or the figures they have presented.

[NickJ]

Are you pointing this out because you think it's a bad thing?

You said "for the benefit not just of Bristol City but for the benefit of the investors", so you accept that there is some benefit to Bristol City. Why, then, should the investors not benefit as well?

If I am correct then yes, I suppose I do believe it is a bad thing.

Planning permission has been granted on green belt land for a project following pressure generated, for a new stadium to be built, the benefits of which will be, to quote Steve Lansdown, a world class stadium for the South West, jobs, financial viability for Bristol City, and so on.

The whole thing has been sold on the basis of benefits to the community generally (whether you agree with that or not) so I think the fact that private investors will actually be the ones making money out of it is underhand, when they are effectively making money out of something which would never have been approved of were it not riding on the back of Bristol City.

It is no doubt a model adopted by all the other clubs which I have quoted and helps to explain why football clubs and their communities do not in fact benefit financially but meanwhile a small group of people will walk off with a tidy profit, and possibly also helps explain why there is so much enthusiasm to build a new stadium rather than improve the one we already have.

If the benefit of Ashton Vale is accruing to entities other than Bristol City Steve Lansdown should come out and talk about that as often as he does about all the other "benefits".

[BCFC_Dan]

If I am correct then yes, I suppose I do believe it is a bad thing.

Planning permission has been granted on green belt land for a project following pressure generated, for a new stadium to be built, the benefits of which will be, to quote Steve Lansdown, a world class stadium for the South West, jobs, financial viability for Bristol City, and so on.

The whole thing has been sold on the basis of benefits to the community generally (whether you agree with that or not) so I think the fact that private investors will actually be the ones making money out of it is underhand, when they are effectively making money out of something which would never have been approved of were it not riding on the back of Bristol City.

It is no doubt a model adopted by all the other clubs which I have quoted and helps to explain why football clubs and their communities do not in fact benefit financially but meanwhile a small group of people will walk off with a tidy profit, and possibly also helps explain why there is so much enthusiasm to build a new stadium rather than improve the one we already have.

If the benefit of Ashton Vale is accruing to entities other than Bristol City Steve Lansdown should come out and talk about that as often as he does about all the other "benefits".

I think this is probably just one of the many things on which you and I differ then.

Personally I think that if something is largely funded by private investment then it's only fair that those investors see some return. It's beneficial to the community irrespective of where the revenue goes.

Bristol City gets a better stadium, Bristol gets better facilities and the people who made it happen are rewarded for their work and risk. It's win-win.