Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The centre midfield pairing of Arnold Mvuemba and Morgan Amalfitano, central midfielders at Lorient in the French 1st division. Arnold Mvuemba, creative midfielder, Has also played 14 games for Portsmouth in the prem. Played a very important part in an explosive 5-1 win over Bordeaux, looked the part to me good all round game, good tackler, a good passing range, good vision, had the composure to score a twice taken penalty (after the appalling referee had sent off a team mate) and most importantly a football brain. Morgan Amalfitano, a slightly different proposition, very pacy, very confident, some of his runs from midfield to measured balls over the top were sublime and resulted in him scoring a great opening goal, again confident tackler, good all round game, good passer and good vision. These 2 guys formed the foundation of a very impressive win over their far more illustrious rivals, mind you having a 10million + rated striker playing out of his skin and scoring a hatrick certainly helped, both worth a look in my view and wages should'nt be much of a problem, apart from the bigger clubs, Marseille, Lyon, Bordeaux, PSG, Lille etc. most players are on sensible championship wages and both the right age as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
beaverface Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The centre midfield pairing of Arnold Mvuemba and Morgan Amalfitano, central midfielders at Lorient in the French 1st division. Arnold Mvuemba, creative midfielder, Has also played 14 games for Portsmouth in the prem. Played a very important part in an explosive 5-1 win over Bordeaux, looked the part to me good all round game, good tackler, a good passing range, good vision, had the composure to score a twice taken penalty (after the appalling referee had sent off a team mate) and most importantly a football brain. Morgan Amalfitano, a slightly different proposition, very pacy, very confident, some of his runs from midfield to measured balls over the top were sublime and resulted in him scoring a great opening goal, again confident tackler, good all round game, good passer and good vision. These 2 guys formed the foundation of a very impressive win over their far more illustrious rivals, mind you having a 10million + rated striker playing out of his skin and scoring a hatrick certainly helped, both worth a look in my view and wages should'nt be much of a problem, apart from the bigger clubs, Marseille, Lyon, Bordeaux, PSG, Lille etc. most players are on sensible championship wages and both the right age as well. Hmm? Unfortunately we don't have anybody to do those "measured" passes over the top. We've got quite a few who can lump it diagonally into the corner, would that help? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Hmm? Unfortunately we don't have anybody to do those "measured" passes over the top. We've got quite a few who can lump it diagonally into the corner, would that help? it reminded me of the games that Hartley actually put a full shift in last season, dangerous measured balls over the top, the Bordeaux central defenders struggled all game to cope, 1 goal and the penalty resulted from that tactic. But they mixed it up by playing diagonal wide balls as well and 3 more goals resulted. it has been a long time since I have seen any game with so much goal mouth action, could have been 8 or 9 goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 'Balls over the top" are a waste of time. I can remember aged 9 or 10 playing balls 'over the top' to our speedy strikers. It hardly ever worked back then and its a low percentage tactic now. You don't see Arsenal or at our level Swansea playing 'balls over the top' very often.Once or twice every other game maybe. Its a crap tactic for crap teams who can't play any other way. Its too easy for players with limited ability and even less vision to hoof a ball 'over the top'. We've see far too many over the years at City and yet managers still allow their players to hand posession back to the opposition 80% of the time. Passing and moving are the fundamentals of the game, best stick with them imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 'Balls over the top" are a waste of time. I can remember aged 9 or 10 playing balls 'over the top' to our speedy strikers. It hardly ever worked back then and its a low percentage tactic now. You don't see Arsenal or at our level Swansea playing 'balls over the top' very often.Once or twice every other game maybe. Its a crap tactic for crap teams who can't play any other way. Its too easy for players with limited ability and even less vision to hoof a ball 'over the top'. We've see far too many over the years at City and yet managers still allow their players to hand posession back to the opposition 80% of the time. Passing and moving are the fundamentals of the game, best stick with them imo. it is a tactic that employed occasionally against the correct opposition can be devastating and although Arsenal may not employ that tactic Manu and especially Chelsea do. and of course you were the 'sage' who when Hartley completed two over the top passes resulting in 2 goals in the same match last season, called them 'hopeful punts upfield', so with all due respect Ginge please excuse me if I don't actually take on board your pearls of wisdom regarding this particular tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 and of course you were the 'sage' who when Hartley completed two over the top passes resulting in 2 goals in the same match last season, called them 'hopeful punts upfield', so with all due respect Ginge please excuse me if I don't actually take on board your pearls of wisdom regarding this particular tactic. The law of avearges says that two 'over the top' passes would be successfull but ask yourself how many times that type of pass was attempted with no result? How many goals have been scored since with 'balls over the top'? Its a crap tactic. Just accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The law of avearges says that two 'over the top' passes would be successfull but ask yourself how many times that type of pass was attempted with no result? How many goals have been scored since with 'balls over the top'? Its a crap tactic. Just accept it. Well actually 'sage' several of our so far meagre total this season have resulted from this tactic. and I can see you are being deliberately obtuse or perhaps it's your turn to be 'thick' again, I never once suggested it was a one and only tactic, but when it works it works and i'm sure even the highly intelligent Mr Wenger knows when and when not to employ it. it's not a crap tactic, we do not have the players capable of playing such balls or the coaching staff competent enough to coach it, they are far to busy coaching our incredibly well coached defence and finding another position where a player can be played to confuse the opposition and of course the player himself. just accept it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 long ball can be a crap tactic, us for example, its terrible. Defenders who pump it long without much direction and with forwards who aint really good in the air. but chelsea for example, who have drogba, and players who can put the ball in the right areas, its very much suited to them. I dont like it, but its not a "crap tactic" if you have the players.... but it'll never be as good to watch as say arsenal/barcelona Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marmite Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Well actually 'sage' several of our so far meagre total this season have resulted from this tactic. and I can see you are being deliberately obtuse or perhaps it's your turn to be 'thick' again, I never once suggested it was a one and only tactic, but when it works it works and i'm sure even the highly intelligent Mr Wenger knows when and when not to employ it. it's not a crap tactic, we do not have the players capable of playing such balls or the coaching staff competent enough to coach it, they are far to busy coaching our incredibly well coached defence and finding another position where a player can be played to confuse the opposition and of course the player himself. just accept it. Its our ONLY tactic, and it doesn't work or entertain.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Reynolds Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 'Balls over the top" are a waste of time. I can remember aged 9 or 10 playing balls 'over the top' to our speedy strikers. It hardly ever worked back then and its a low percentage tactic now. You don't see Arsenal or at our level Swansea playing 'balls over the top' very often.Once or twice every other game maybe. Its a crap tactic for crap teams who can't play any other way. Its too easy for players with limited ability and even less vision to hoof a ball 'over the top'. We've see far too many over the years at City and yet managers still allow their players to hand posession back to the opposition 80% of the time. Passing and moving are the fundamentals of the game, best stick with them imo. Robbored, you are many years my senior, and as a result you have years of supporting City/watching football on myself. However, I scarcely see anybody post on here who knows as little about the game as you. For what it's worth, with the right execution and the right players to knock it to it is a devastating tactic. Lumping the ball straight isn't, as centre-halves are centre-halves for a very good reason. But are you telling me that a Brian Tinnion 'ball over the top' to Scott Murray was a tactic employed by a player lacking vision or ability? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The law of avearges says that two 'over the top' passes would be successfull but ask yourself how many times that type of pass was attempted with no result? How many goals have been scored since with 'balls over the top'? Its a crap tactic. Just accept it. 3 of the 4 goals at Preston came from balls over the top. As did 1 at QPR. It didnt seem too crap a tactic then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 You don't see Arsenal or at our level Swansea playing 'balls over the top' very often.Once or twice every other game maybe. I dont watch Swansea every week as you clearly do to come up with those stats. But heres the highlights of their last game against Doncaster. I count 3 balls over the top leading to chances in this brief clip alone. I guess that means they won't be doing it again for the next 2 games to keep their stats inline with what you've said. http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/football/eng_div_1/9403072.stm Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Posted Today, 02:45 PM long ball can be a crap tactic, us for example, its terrible. Defenders who pump it long without much direction and with forwards who aint really good in the air. but chelsea for example, who have drogba, and players who can put the ball in the right areas, its very much suited to them. I dont like it, but its not a "crap tactic" if you have the players.... but it'll never be as good to watch as say arsenal/barcelona Its our ONLY tactic, and it doesn't work or entertain.. I have not once mentioned the ball tactic. That was the work of 'the sage' who as usual has misrepresented my original thread. I am talking about the sort of measured ball over top that Hartley occasionally used last season. Bearing in mind that with Millens dream team of Elliott and Skuse in midfield a) we generally lose anyway and b) if we do win or avoid defeat the long ball tactic tends to be the only tactic available. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 <However, I scarcely see anybody post on here who knows as little about the game as you. For what it's worth, with the right execution and the right players to knock it to it is a devastating tactic. Lumping the ball straight isn't, as centre-halves are centre-halves for a very good reason. But are you telling me that a Brian Tinnion 'ball over the top' to Scott Murray was a tactic employed by a player lacking vision or ability? 'Right execution and right players'. Yeh,thats about right but City don't have the right players. And...just to put the record straight, Tinnion used to find Murry more often that not with through balls, often played between the full back and central defenders. It wasn't often he played aerial balls to Murray unless it was a counter attack. And.... dont forget that Tinnion played most of career at City in Division 1. Coming up against slower, less mobile defenders certainly helped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 And...just to put the record straight, Tinnion used to find Murry more often that not with through balls, often played between the full back and central defenders. more made up stats. good stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 'Right execution and right players'. Yeh,thats about right but City don't have the right players. And...just to put the record straight, Tinnion used to find Murry more often that not with through balls, often played between the full back and central defenders. It wasn't often he played aerial balls to Murray unless it was a counter attack. And.... dont forget that Tinnion played most of career at City in Division 1. Coming up against slower, less mobile defenders certainly helped. Your talking to yourself as usual Ginge, You are the only one talking about the 'long ball game', nobody else is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Reynolds Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 'Right execution and right players'. Yeh,thats about right but City don't have the right players. And...just to put the record straight, Tinnion used to find Murry more often that not with through balls, often played between the full back and central defenders. It wasn't often he played aerial balls to Murray unless it was a counter attack. And.... dont forget that Tinnion played most of career at City in Division 1. Coming up against slower, less mobile defenders certainly helped. I didn't suggest that City do have the right players, nor did the original poster. You did suggest that it's a 'crap tactic' regardless. And you were obviously watching a different game than me. Plus, you can only beat whats put in front of you. I don't think you can claim that Murray and Tinnion were the weak links of the teams that failed to get us out of the third tier. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 dont forget that Tinnion played most of career at City in Division 1. Coming up against slower, less mobile defenders certainly helped. When I said that GJ was a better manager thab Danny Wilson, because he did better and did better at a higher level, you dismissed it. Now your saying that division one is much poorer! make your mind up! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 I don't think you can claim that Murray and Tinnion were the weak links of the teams that failed to get us out of the third tier. Where do I claim that Tinnion and Murray were 'weak links'? If anything they were the stand out stars of the team. Both could have played higher up as Murray did when he went to Reading. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Where do I claim that Tinnion and Murray were 'weak links'? If anything they were the stand out stars of the team. Both could have played higher up as Murray did when he went to Reading. and as Tinnion did with a team called Bristol City. You may of heard their games covered on the minibus radio on the way to Rovers games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 it is a tactic that employed occasionally against the correct opposition can be devastating and although Arsenal may not employ that tactic Manu and especially Chelsea do. and of course you were the 'sage' who when Hartley completed two over the top passes resulting in 2 goals in the same match last season, called them 'hopeful punts upfield', so with all due respect Ginge please excuse me if I don't actually take on board your pearls of wisdom regarding this particular tactic. The Boro game as I recall when 2 superb long passes led to Maynard's goals. They were not hopeful hoofs upfield of the kind our defenders do too often but intended to turn the defence and give Nicky the advantage in a one to one with his marker. Playing long passes to a purpose is entirely different to the Charles Hughes school of long ball, percentage football as you suggest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redcliffe 78 Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 The ball over the top is effective as passing through a team Barcelona's first goal last night 30yd ball over the top to Alves squared back to Villa who scored, Chelsea play this tactic, both goals i saw them score at Wolves last year balls over the top on the break,when you have players up front who are nearly as fast as Linford Christie in his prime common sence means you use this tactic as well as pass and move. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 If Arnold Mvuemba is the same guy who played vs us for Pompey in the FA cup the other season at Fratton park - he was quality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NOTR Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 Look at the players at your disposal,set your game plan to suit said players,you then have the right tactics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 21, 2011 Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 There are different types of 'long ball' football to be fair. There are aimless long ball, traditional route 1 stuff. Then there are as EMB correctly states measured ones. An example of this I guess, Caulker for the opening goal at Preston. Thought it looked a little like one of the former at first but it was actually perfectly weighted.. Similarly, Djorkaeff and Okocha for Bolton probably didn't play many aimless long balls despite Big Sam's reputation for the long ball game. I suppose mixing it up would be best all round really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 21, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 21, 2011 There are different types of 'long ball' football to be fair. There are aimless long ball, traditional route 1 stuff. Then there are as EMB correctly states measured ones. An example of this I guess, Caulker for the opening goal at Preston. Thought it looked a little like one of the former at first but it was actually perfectly weighted.. Similarly, Djorkaeff and Okocha for Bolton probably didn't play many aimless long balls despite Big Sam's reputation for the long ball game. I suppose mixing it up would be best all round really. But back to the original thread before RR hijacked it with his usual drivel. I have only seen them a few times on TV playing in tandem, i've seen them once live and i'm due to see them again in early March. They have always impressed me they are a handful and very skillful, the one touch passing between them at pace was a joy to watch and very comfortable on the ball. Having said that Lorient have one of the most gifted, intelligent and respected coaches in europe in Christian Gourcuff, he regularly picks up or buys players and turns them into big money sales for the club. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 But back to the original thread before RR hijacked it with his usual drivel. I have only seen them a few times on TV playing in tandem, i've seen them once live and i'm due to see them again in early March. They have always impressed me they are a handful and very skillful, the one touch passing between them at pace was a joy to watch and very comfortable on the ball. Having said that Lorient have one of the most gifted, intelligent and respected coaches in europe in Christian Gourcuff, he regularly picks up or buys players and turns them into big money sales for the club. Certainly sounds promising, maybe something to look at in the summer. As for the team themselves, definitely one to watch in terms of streams I guess. Two things though, how much would these players cost in terms of fees and would they necessarily come here if they are of the quality which you suggest? Top end CCC sides, lower PL sides and similar in La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga. No harm in having a go though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted February 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Certainly sounds promising, maybe something to look at in the summer. As for the team themselves, definitely one to watch in terms of streams I guess. Two things though, how much would these players cost in terms of fees and would they necessarily come here if they are of the quality which you suggest? Top end CCC sides, lower PL sides and similar in La Liga, Serie A and Bundesliga. No harm in having a go though. Lorient is not a big place about 70,000 population, the ground is excellent just one more side to re-develop, the present capacity is 18,500 and the average is about 14,000. The ground has 2 all weather training surfaces attached to the ground and 2nd (reserve pitch) with a running track. it is a well run club and the atmosphere is good and is an intimidating and difficult place for the top sides to play. Since their promotion back to the top flight in 2006 they have improved year by year and last year finished comfortably in 7th a position they occupy at the moment. After selling Koscielny to Arsenal, Gourcuff has already found a more than adequate replacement in fact the 2 centre backs were very impressive. The team has a strong spine, goalkeeper, central defenders, central midfielders and a top drawer striker who will move in the summer for 10million + and will be replaced by more up and coming quality who will be coached to the highest standard, Gourcuff has god like status at this club, he receives the biggest cheer when the teams are announced. His style of play is quite different to the normal slow continental approach of most french teams, they play a very high tempo pressing game, very quick one touch passing movement, nobody moans when a mistake is made they just attempt to rectify the mistake or more likely the player behind will rectify it for you, they are most importantly a team they work hard and are all comfortable on the ball, the only weakness I could spot to be honest was the full backs, they were adequate. in 2002 another Breton team Guingamp were in the french 1st division a town of 9,000 people that had an average gate of 14,000, they finished 3rd and played in the Eufa cup the next season, in the summer prior to their Eufa cup games they sold their star striker and ended up relegated and are now in the 3rd division the star striker was Didier Drogba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frank Reynolds Posted February 22, 2011 Report Share Posted February 22, 2011 Where do I claim that Tinnion and Murray were 'weak links'? If anything they were the stand out stars of the team. Both could have played higher up as Murray did when he went to Reading. My point exactly. So the players who were our 'stand out stars' became so by employing a crap tactic? You assumed that the OP meant long hoof-balls (and if thats all you've got the players for then tough) when he actually was suggesting a couple who could play cultured, measured balls. As I said, for a man who has watching a lot of football your knowledge is sadly lacking. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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