Gary Johnson

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I'm not angry, just viewing it isolation after the event and trying to view it with and open mind

I'm happy to be corrected and stuff, but Im not keen on people glossing over things to keep some kind of mythology (imo) alive. Hence the pros and cons in the first place.

I was trying to be honest in the response and give the reasons why. Im not sure how this makes me angry?

I said before I wasnt comparing it to the other managers and wont continue to. This is a thread about Gary Johnson being a legend or not. Based on what I've said he isnt. I'm not going to start leaving stuff out to make it it like he was, if I dont believe it..

It may make us in the minority of fans on this board but Ive tried to come up with some reasoned discussions and rebuttals, nothing more, nothing less. Im certain it wont make people change their minds about him, but its still a valid view nonetheless

That's fine and I respect your point of view, mine is as many in football GJ is a flawed character, but we are where are because of him and our jubilation about our Sainsbury's planning decision on wednesday night and our proposed new stadium has everything to do with our position in the championship and our very near miss in the play off final, the 2 go hand in hand because if we were a 1st division club then we almost certainly would'nt be looking at having a brand new stadium and the impact in the long term of a new stadium will be very important to not only for our survival but any plans of playing in the Premier League someday and bearing in mind Wilson who failed spectacularly and Tinnion who only exacerbated the Wilson years and the other managers who got us promoted and could'nt keep us there, GJ is without a very important part of recent BCFC history.

[Jordan Tansley]

You are being way too harsh Ralphy IMO - what manager ever leaves a club looking rosy?

In reality you could apply the above criticisms and praise to Alan Dicks! Got us one promotion, increased our media profile and signed the likes of Norman Hunter and TC.

But also left a mess, unbalanced squad, full of overpaid players on long contracts, which took THREE managers to sort out (Houghton and Hodgson couldn't do it, TC did). If you are old enough to remember Dicksy signing Clive Whitehead up to a TEN YEAR contract, you will perhaps be less harsh in your judgement of Gary's transfer dealings I would suggest.

The reality is that the mess Dicksy left saw the club go bust and get relegated three years running. So I assume he isn't a legend either then?

Great post, especially to all those who claim Dicks is a legend but in the same breath claim GJ isn't.

I wasn't alive at the time of Dicks, but I can speak about the club when GJ was here. He brought this club together! we were a fractured and poor excuse for a club in league 1 when Tinman left... GJ single handidly dragged us up and changed the entire mentality of the players and fans.

I notice Ralph lists some of the signings we made in GJ's first season... Those players might not have been the best, but they played there part in helping get City out of a precarious relegation battle and almost snatch the playoffs...

In my eyes, GJ is a legend for the way he shaped this club with SL into an established Championship side. The man had his faults, but he made us laugh and he made us successful.

others I would add to the legend status from recent times; Scott Murray, Tinnion and Adriano Basso... these guys brought more than just good performances to this club... Cult heroes and therefore Legends!

[Bristolface]

yet you have none yourself. remarkable.

I guess its like doctors that smoke

[Jordan Tansley]

Precarious Relegation Battle in, er, September (Gary took over near the end of September)? Please explain, as that's slightly confusing.

As for the players, are you saying that you cant criticise the manager for making rubbish signings because of league position, despite that setting the tone for years ahead and leaving us in a financial and on the field mess? If not that, then what are you saying?

As said not here to argue, just asking for some clarification

Cheers

We were up the shitter when GJ came in. It may have been early in the season, but we were still in serious trouble,

Some of those signings you list were in no way world beaters, but they all put the effort in. They ran their hearts out for the club and helped build a "seige mentality" within the club. I'm not for one second saying we stayerd up because we had Osei Sankofa in our side... But they were better than those they kept out of the side and the effort at least was there from most (Andy Smith for example, was SHIT. but he made runs and tackles that earnt us valuable points.

GJ's record in the transfer market wasn't the best, but it was by no means the worst either!

[Lammers]

Like your profile pic Lammers. Did you do it yourself?

Yes mate i did, i also did the caricatures in last seasons programmes, sorry to everyone for replying on a post but i cant view profiles.

you can check my facebook if you like theres a profile on there, just search for simon lambley...

[Lammers]

Great result today too

[Lammers]

o.k updated account, why will my laptop not recognise me but my pc does

[Economou]

Yeah but this isnt a judge Alan Dicks thread is it? If I wanted to compare the for and against argument for him I do it in his own thread if he had one and there was sufficient interest

This was a for and against GJ thread, so thats exactly what was laid out. The problems were there before he left and werent sorted during his tenure so how is he exempt from criticism for it?

Cant be blamed for leaving a mess? How does that work.. If I left a mess out of something is it then not my fault if I leave whilst in the middle of making said mess? You will have to explain that to me as to how it doesnt somehow matter despite these problems being well aware of during his tenure and not suddenly coming to light after.

Re the academy Skuse made his debut in Feb 2005 and was fairly regular towards the end of that season and the beginning of the next before GJ took over at the end of September some 7 months later.. So Im not sure how that holds sway that Skuse was blooded by GJ? Anyone else during his term standout as being debuted and staying there? 0 players in 5 years?

The likes of Frankie Artus, Craig Woodman, Jennison Myrie-Williams, Scott Goldbourne (iirc) and so on ( notchecked properly if honest so if ive got it wrong will hold me hands up and say so) not getting a chance ( and then loaning the likes of John Ruddy in because there was no one to step up iirc) Doesnt speak wonders for his faith in the youth team.

Overall he was a success in the transfer/loan market. really?

Nathan Abbey

Patrick Aygemang

Calvin Andrews

Wayne Andrews

Steve Collis

Barry Corr

Adam Green

Izzy Irekepen

Stern John

Marc Joseph

Guy Madjo

Stephen Maierhoffer

James Quinn

Alvario Saborio

Osei Sanikofa

Baz Savage

Andy Webster

Nick Wright

Kelly Youga

The above list includes some of our worst ever signings/players..

Hartley splits opinion. Some think he is the greatest thing since sliced bread, others think he was nothing much at all

But yeah, he was great in the transfer market isnt it?

And the behind the scenes is very important. If Wilson can be slagged off for it and rightly so, what makes GJ exempt from criticism about it?

Cheers

First off I said it was a so-called mess, please could you explain what the mess was as I believe he left behind a decent squad.

Secondly, Skuse was a regular in GJ's teams after coming out of the academy. I mentioned James Wilson and Christian Ribeiro who I'm sure would have featured regularly if they weren't perenially injured. Didn't they come out of the academy ? I'm slightly surpised at the players you mention as you could hardly say they've set the world alight, obviously they weren't considered good enough for Championship football which I think has been proven to date.

It was you who mentioned the loan market I was talking about transfers, although possibly not made clear. Do you not agree with the players I mentioned ? By the way from the loan players you quote I think most of them did a decent job, Quinn, Webster & Agyemang probably being the exceptions.

I note you live in France, I take it you have been commuting over regularly to watch the mighty reds ? I don't mean that to sound the way it comes over, just wondered how many games you've seen over the last few years.

[Fat Cigar]

Still miss the guy. Says it all for me.

Regardless of the success we had, he lit up the website with his interviews, had time for everyone, a great sense of humour and loved this club. Charisma is bucket loads for a footie manager.

Agree with every word of this. I still quite miss Gary Johnson. It was right that he went when he did, in fact overdue, but he did a hell of a lot for us, and was a thoroughly decent and down to earth guy. Will always wish him the best wherever he is.

[Fat Cigar]

Still miss the guy. Says it all for me.

Regardless of the success we had, he lit up the website with his interviews, had time for everyone, a great sense of humour and loved this club. Charisma is bucket loads for a footie manager.

Agree with every word of this. I still quite miss Gary Johnson. It was right that he went when he did, in fact overdue, but he did a hell of a lot for us, and was a thoroughly decent and down to earth guy. Will always wish him the best wherever he is.

[Redcliffe 78]

Squad was a mess. no left back cover /replacement, No left winger of any kind, no real strike partnership to note, just lots of largely unsuccessful loans, no cover at right back were just some of the criticisms levelled before he left. So im not sure how that's decent squad. Players such as LJ, Sproule, Haynes Akinde and JCR, Styvar, Gerken Clarkson ( til the last 5 games or so) and others have all largely been lambasted for being rubbish or not up to task at this level on this forum and others. Other accusations include bloated squad of no quality

As said Skuse was regular from March the previous season, so hadnt just come out of the academy when GJ arrived nor was blooded by him see Soccerbase hed made about 17 appearences by the time GJ arrived and was nearly ever present the season that GJ joined.

This is the same James Wilson who at 22 has made all of 2 subs appearances for city, and has spent time on loan at Brentford twice since his city debut in 2008. irrespective of injury, he hasnt been given a fair crack of the whip when he has been fit, signings of the likes of Nyatanga and Webster, Irekepen limited any chance he may have had here

Ribeiro got injured on his debut vs Peterboro' in 2008, got fit from that and then and got injured playing for Wales. Its clear that if GJ had rated him he could have kept him in squad from his return from injury providing cover for Orr for example, but instead recalled him from Exeter and sent him out straight away to Colchester instead where he got injured again. Hardly inspiring when coupled with the players ive already mentioned, chuck in Tristan Plummer ( who was meant to be the next 'big' thing) Marlon Jackson and a load of others and there is quite the compelling case to say yes there is an issue regarding youth, or specifically home grown youth. The signing of Akinde, Aforementioned Nyatanga (Who is only 22 himself, further suggest his lack of faith in the youth system or refusal to at least try them.

Regarding transfers. Do loans suddenly not count? They are still signed by the manager. I've included a wider selection because they are amongst the worst we have ever had and afaik we signed Madjo Savage and a few others inc Collis and Abbey on the list so I could say selectivism on others parts choosing to go with just a select few to make a more rounded comparison as a counter

As for your list

Basso- went horribly sour last season, was good before that, but 6 months plus of a disaster contract dispute and whatever else nightmare was caused directly by dispute between manager/management and player, split fan opinion and still does afaik

Elliott- One great season tempered by mediocity since until know by some

Fontaine- has at times split opinion between good enough or not, Some still undecided apparently especially without Caulker/ Carey to Babysit

Adebola- Start of the hoofball phenomenon which in my eyes was the beginning of the end as it wasnt another club in the bag it became punt it to the big guy and hope for the best. Im not convinced on how great he was, considered we altered to play to his style at the expense of anything else in my eyes ( thats not dissing the player by the way its just saying we changed to suit and not vice versa)

Maynard- Great striker admittedly ,but not even first choice. If Meteb had come off would we have even looked at him, honestly?

Hartley- Already noted that he divides opinion, came up with several squillion things in the thread a bit ago that he really wasnt that great despite what people seem to remember and still stand by that.

As for where I'am that's my business, this is a football forum discussing football not discussing where I live.

Hope that helps

Johnson said, when being in the Championship the youth players need to be looked at different, are they now capable of Division 1 standard to Championship standard, tell me one player apart from Harley who he realised at championship level who is now playing this level?, (still on loan at Exeter, was his judgement that bad?)

[Redcliffe 78]

Well with regards, to whether they were good enough we will never know because they were never played. Even Benny took the bullet ( for all his sins as manager) and flooded the team with youth,

We seem to have this issue about a ) blooding youth generally something that has been acutely aware of/ made more pertinent under GJ as we would have brought in as per examples Ive given and b) playing our youth when they are actually youth, rather than blooding them some 2 or 3 years later in early 20's.

Caulker is what 19 and has played 60+ league games. Ribeiro has about 23 games ( yes injury hit at 21) Wilson has around 30 at 21 (injury hit), Henderson about 50 at 22 ( 3years on from Caulker). Going back to some of the players I mentioned. Tristan Plummer 12 league games at 21, Jennison Myrie Williams is comparable for number of games in the first team to Caulker, but then went to become an on loan player playing everywhere but us before being off loaded this from a player touted as one for the future by 4-4-2 and is afaik at Oxford but barred from playing by the two club rule. so could be washed up at er 22. Scott Goldbourne made no appearences under GJ after playing 11 or so for Tinnion, Went to Reading and played 2 games inc one in the Prem iirc. Is now at Exeter along with Harley til the end of the season. Jackson has made 3 appearances for us ( none under GJ, loaned out to Aldershot) played twenty games else where and is likely being bombed out by us at the end of the season.

None of them have realised or or had the chance to realised at this level because they havent been given the games or have been sent on loan elsewhere, something that was also used regarding Akinde, another one for the future, who people have largely written off because of a spell in a woeful Rovers team, yet before hand were clamouring him to be in the squad even he has only about 16 games for us.

Its not always about being not good enough (some wont be I understand that) However we have never given any of them the chance. Could you for example see us giving a 16-17 year old a debut ala Connor Wickham who is 54 games for Ipswich already? No I cant, ala the fall out from Johnson's era, style or whatever, he would have likely been loaned out, have a few subs games and then released. If you can come with a different POV then Iam listening

Cheers

So yeah for giving youth a chance, especially our youth then at any level, it's largely a big fat no from me, unless youd care to discuss differently

Caulker is what 19, played for England at a few levels and Redknapp and everyone on here can see he is going far in the game, makes your later comments stupid and a lack of football knowledge again IMO, Akinde has had a few games not good enough, or am i reading your argument wrong few ciders on board.? Golbourne was sold with a sell on clause, what level is he playing now?

P.S.

Harley and Beynon are the two he Johnson let go, they are now doing well

[Bcfc3660]

Total legend for me. If I saw him in the street I would deffo shake his hand and thank him for what he did for us.

[monkeygoblin]

Legend? Yes. For me, without a doubt.

Consider this folks... after 16 consecutive years as a season ticket holder, through work related responsibilities I was based in Asia for the first 2 years of GJ's reign. I therefore had a backseat view of the goings on under our then new manager...... and upon my return?.... WOW.... a club that had completely transformed! From the depths of despair of Tinnion, the abject failures of Wilson, not to mention some of the absolute nesbitts who 'managed' our club prior to that, we were suddenly a club united.

Fans, players, staff, board, all pulling together in the same direction, with the charismatic Mr Johnson as the fulcrum of it all, pulling all the strings.

He is not of course beyond criticism (just look at some of his transfers in the latter seasons), but what he did for our club deserves legendary status.

I think my 2 years away helped highlight this: It's like if you have a grossly obese friend, who loses a hell of a lot of weight, battles against the odds and pulls themself together in true fat club fashion.... if you're around him every day, you seldom notice the change. But seeing only the start product and the finished article hits home like a kick to the cojones! When I returned from my excursions abroad, we were a completely different club and I was the proudest of men (albeit a little jealous at what i'd missed).

GJ took us to new giddy heights. How do you define a legend? If it's someone who is in charge at a time when one will tell ones grandkids about, then GJ fits the bill perfectly.

[Economou]

Legend? Yes. For me, without a doubt.

Consider this folks... after 16 consecutive years as a season ticket holder, through work related responsibilities I was based in Asia for the first 2 years of GJ's reign. I therefore had a backseat view of the goings on under our then new manager...... and upon my return?.... WOW.... a club that had completely transformed! From the depths of despair of Tinnion, the abject failures of Wilson, not to mention some of the absolute nesbitts who 'managed' our club prior to that, we were suddenly a club united.

Fans, players, staff, board, all pulling together in the same direction, with the charismatic Mr Johnson as the fulcrum of it all, pulling all the strings.

He is not of course beyond criticism (just look at some of his transfers in the latter seasons), but what he did for our club deserves legendary status.

I think my 2 years away helped highlight this: It's like if you have a grossly obese friend, who loses a hell of a lot of weight, battles against the odds and pulls themself together in true fat club fashion.... if you're around him every day, you seldom notice the change. But seeing only the start product and the finished article hits home like a kick to the cojones! When I returned from my excursions abroad, we were a completely different club and I was the proudest of men (albeit a little jealous at what i'd missed).

GJ took us to new giddy heights. How do you define a legend? If it's someone who is in charge at a time when one will tell ones grandkids about, then GJ fits the bill perfectly.

Good stuff, transformed is an apt description.

[Redcliffe 78]

Oh I see its to the lack of football knowledge discussion because I dont happen to agree. your call.

Ive discussed my view, confirmed the points and the reasons as to why I feel that I countered what Ive said and why ive said with tangiable proof and stats in most cases and still somehow you must get ' the last word in. Thats your call dude. I dont see why the need for antagonism, because I dont agree This isnt the playground and no need for it. its a fans forum and fans will always have different views.

On to your point ,about our players not being good enough using the England discussion Jennison Myrie-Williams was England under 18, Tristan Plummer was England U-16, U17, and U-18. Scott Golbourne was England U17 iirc with us ( and went on to England U18, U19) Stephen Henderson has had 8 ROI under 21 caps yet we are content to loan him out and he will be 23 come seasons end he has played 5 games with us. Whats use of having that potential if we wont play him GJ went a brought Gerken who is only 25 himself and has played over 150 games. On one hand you have the cries for experience, but on the other GJ didnt give them the chance to gain that experience with us

There must have been something to them, or they would have never have got the call ups, So why didnt we use them?

If you want to use the where are they now, or the admission that some times things are wrong, re read what I wrote before its all there afaik If you want to use the what level they are playing at now discussion, you can manipulate that a number of ways including Golbourne playing in the Prem when we were in The Champs. Players move up and down the league to make the comparisons ridiculously difficult, You can have a talented player playing in the wrong league for a number of reasons, you only have to look at our own first team goalkeeper for proof of that or even Bellamy at Cardiff. Saying that because they are at lower level is a false stigmatism that some how gets in the mindsets of fans to somehow denegrate players. Im sure we are all glad for instance didnt go for a lower league player in Albert Adomah, who by ( if what ive read from you is correct) was playing in a lower league and hence must be rubbish. He's done rather amazingly since stepping up and being given the games something that the others by and large never could. Remember Harley could be in the Prem himself next season with Swansea. ( Going back some pre Johnson) Kay Odejayi ended up playing at Barnsley ( at the same level we are now) and has a Nigerian cap iirc, not bad for some one we loaned to FGR and only played 3 games for us. Furthermore you talked about Elliot Benyon who didnt play a single game for us afaik, but is now after £150,000 move from Torquay, playing for Swindon at the level we released him at.

So Ill stick by what I said originally all those posts ago, I've confirmed things several times. If that's not good enough for you or others then that's your view. I'll say it again, please dont antagonise me for daring to have a different view, the board is all about opinions, everyone will have a different one.

Cheers

PS Akinde has had made 1 start in league, 1 start in the league cup and has made the current total of 19 sub appearences ( 15 league 2 League cup 2 FA cup) He is only 21 still, we paid 140k for him ( which is alot of money for an untested youth) and makes a mockery of the players already here in the academy and then dont proceed to play him to see if he is good enough, instead loaning him out all over the shop to gain 'experience' and likely letting him go for nothing when his contracts up.

Stats are always right.

[Redcliffe 78]

Oh I see its to the lack of football knowledge discussion because I dont happen to agree. your call.

Ive discussed my view, confirmed the points and the reasons as to why I feel that I countered what Ive said and why ive said with tangiable proof and stats in most cases and still somehow you must get ' the last word in. Thats your call dude. I dont see why the need for antagonism, because I dont agree This isnt the playground and no need for it. its a fans forum and fans will always have different views.

On to your point ,about our players not being good enough using the England discussion Jennison Myrie-Williams was England under 18, Tristan Plummer was England U-16, U17, and U-18. Scott Golbourne was England U17 iirc with us ( and went on to England U18, U19) Stephen Henderson has had 8 ROI under 21 caps yet we are content to loan him out and he will be 23 come seasons end he has played 5 games with us. Whats use of having that potential if we wont play him GJ went a brought Gerken who is only 25 himself and has played over 150 games. On one hand you have the cries for experience, but on the other GJ didnt give them the chance to gain that experience with us

There must have been something to them, or they would have never have got the call ups, So why didnt we use them?

If you want to use the where are they now, or the admission that some times things are wrong, re read what I wrote before its all there afaik If you want to use the what level they are playing at now discussion, you can manipulate that a number of ways including Golbourne playing in the Prem when we were in The Champs. Players move up and down the league to make the comparisons ridiculously difficult, You can have a talented player playing in the wrong league for a number of reasons, you only have to look at our own first team goalkeeper for proof of that or even Bellamy at Cardiff. Saying that because they are at lower level is a false stigmatism that some how gets in the mindsets of fans to somehow denegrate players. Im sure we are all glad for instance didnt go for a lower league player in Albert Adomah, who by ( if what ive read from you is correct) was playing in a lower league and hence must be rubbish. He's done rather amazingly since stepping up and being given the games something that the others by and large never could. Remember Harley could be in the Prem himself next season with Swansea. ( Going back some pre Johnson) Kay Odejayi ended up playing at Barnsley ( at the same level we are now) and has a Nigerian cap iirc, not bad for some one we loaned to FGR and only played 3 games for us. Furthermore you talked about Elliot Benyon who didnt play a single game for us afaik, but is now after £150,000 move from Torquay, playing for Swindon at the level we released him at.

So Ill stick by what I said originally all those posts ago, I've confirmed things several times. If that's not good enough for you or others then that's your view. I'll say it again, please dont antagonise me for daring to have a different view, the board is all about opinions, everyone will have a different one.

Cheers

PS Akinde has had made 1 start in league, 1 start in the league cup and has made the current total of 19 sub appearences ( 15 league 2 League cup 2 FA cup) He is only 21 still, we paid 140k for him ( which is alot of money for an untested youth) and makes a mockery of the players already here in the academy and then dont proceed to play him to see if he is good enough, instead loaning him out all over the shop to gain 'experience' and likely letting him go for nothing when his contracts up.

[/quot

Again name me apart from the two i mention who are playing a better standard than Championship football.

[Redcliffe 78]

As said previously if you are not going to engage and be pithy about it there is no point in responding. Re your second quote ive answered that above and Im not going there again

Cheers

Youth deserves a chance i agree, but if the players let go by the club go on to be better themselves great, i love to see it, i was a Schoolboy player at City, didn't make it but enjoyed playing at a decent local level in football afterwards my argument with you is the youth players we didn't give a chance have they gone on to better things?, i love young players proving the club/manager who released them to show that manager you were wrong, but with the players you have mentioned again are they playing a better standard than Championship football?. Another thing of England youth caps i was captain of Bristol Boys U14/15, only two players out of our squad played pro, U16, U17, U18, England caps mean nothing look at the stats how many players who play at this level full-fill there promise, youth football to the next level is hard some can do this some can't.

Cheers

[One Team In Keynsham]

I think you forgot to mention Joe Jordan?

The football under Joe Jordan was outstanding first time around.

Play off finalists in his role as caretaker/manager, then the Semi Finals of The Littlewoods Cup the season after, culminating in promotion the season after that.

Unfortunately, he wasn't able to sort out Osmans mess during his second tenure.

As for Johnson being a legend?

Does he compare to the Ashton Gate Eight and their monumental sacrifice?

John Atyeo and Fatty Wedlock, both represented England whilst playing for City,

Whilst I will always appreciate Gary Johnsons efforts in gaining promotion to the Championship and in getting us to within 90 minutes of the premier league, I wouldn't see him as a legend.

Legend is a word too easily used in these modern times.

I may be old fashioned, but please don't tar me with the same brush as the irrational robbored!

This is why it is a No from me.

[cityboy]

I'll always remember him as a top man, and be thankful for the turn around of the clubs fortunes he was responsible for. Not only that, but the way he managed the club (light a candle and all that) was something that surely resonated with most of the fan base and made the club seem that little bit closer to us regular supporters. But legend? Probably not, if only because he wasn't here long enough to warrant that title. Still, I'm glad he was our manager for a time, and I'm glad of the increased standing we find ourselves in now as a direct consequence of having appointed him the manager.