Terracing To Return?

[Barrs Court Red]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/22/terracing-government-reintroduce-standing

Nice to see the minister is more concerned about himself more than the matter at hand.

[Riaz]

I wish

PL say no

[CotswoldRed]

Talking shop.

They will forever wheel out Hillsborough. I, for one, am still convinced that terracing had nothing to do with the disaster at all. Opening up the gates, combined with pitchside fencing was the issue.

There isn't a single stadium in the country that could suffer another Hillsborough. Not because we now have seats, but because the fencing has gone.

Simple.

[Jordan Tansley]

Petition

Please click the link and fill in the petition. It doesn't matter if you personally do not wish to stand at football games, but the fans who would like that right back need your support in getting it.

would be great to have a safe standing area in AV should this petition cause change,

SIGN IT!

[notsobigfatdave]

Talking shop.

They will forever wheel out Hillsborough. I, for one, am still convinced that terracing had nothing to do with the disaster at all. Opening up the gates, combined with pitchside fencing was the issue.

There isn't a single stadium in the country that could suffer another Hillsborough. Not because we now have seats, but because the fencing has gone.

Simple.

I was there along with my teenage brother on that Fateful day in 1989. My cousin at the time was a Forrest Player.

The Police, in my opinion were made scapegoats by the Authorities in the enquiry which ensued. The removal of the terraces would not have prevented that particular disaster, never!

The cause was thousands of Liverpool supporters, the majority of which who did not have tickets, storming through an entrance gate.

I would love to see terraces return to the grounds.

[Jordan Tansley]

I was there along with my teenage brother on that Fateful day in 1989. My cousin at the time was a Forrest Player.

The Police, in my opinion were made scapegoats by the Authorities in the enquiry which ensued. The removal of the terraces would not have prevented that particular disaster, never!

The cause was thousands of Liverpool supporters, the majority of which who did not have tickets, storming through an entrance gate.

I would love to see terraces return to the grounds.

The police were not made scape goats at all, They made the decision to open the gate and that's what caused it. If they hadn't opened the gate then it wouldn't have happened.

[CotswoldRed]

The police were not made scape goats at all, They made the decision to open the gate and that's what caused it. If they hadn't opened the gate then it wouldn't have happened.

If you read through the report, you'll be aware that people were being crushed outside the ground when they took the decision - in the narrow alleyways leading to the Leppings Lane End (I think thats wahat its called). If the terraces had been spared the disaster then some other 'disaster' would have ensued (albeit maybe a less serious one).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

[Jordan Tansley]

If you read through the report, you'll be aware that people were being crushed outside the ground when they took the decision - in the narrow alleyways leading to the Leppings Lane End (I think thats wahat its called). If the terraces had been spared the disaster then some other 'disaster' would have ensued (albeit maybe a less serious one).

Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Yeah, it was the Leppings lane end.

I suppose you're right, But hindsight is the only tool for attributing "blame" as the other poster wanted to do.

It was a tragedy and there are many aspects of it that should and could have been policed better, and other aspects where the fans should have acted differently.

Anyway, safe standing areas are not a return to terracing, The majority of stands will still be seated one would imagine, putting to bed the PL's pathetic argument about families and women attending, having one end that has safe standing simply gives fans a choice.

This is an opportunity to fight back on at least one of the areas where football fans are treated like criminals, we should all be showing our support for a fans right to sit or stand as they wish, and be given the safest means to do so.

[JD74]

The sports minister has announced today that the government will consider lifting the ban on standing at top tier grounds

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2011/mar/22/terracing-government-reintroduce-standing

Can't see it happening at the Gate unfortunately purely down to the logistics and costs involved but would love a safe standing section in the new place (fingers crossed)

Wondered what people's thoughts are on this?

[CotswoldRed]

Yeah, it was the Leppings lane end.

I suppose you're right, But hindsight is the only tool for attributing "blame" as the other poster wanted to do.

It was a tragedy and there are many aspects of it that should and could have been policed better, and other aspects where the fans should have acted differently.

Anyway, safe standing areas are not a return to terracing, The majority of stands will still be seated one would imagine, putting to bed the PL's pathetic argument about families and women attending, having one end that has safe standing simply gives fans a choice.

This is an opportunity to fight back on at least one of the areas where football fans are treated like criminals, we should all be showing our support for a fans right to sit or stand as they wish, and be given the safest means to do so.

Agree with this.

I'm just sick of being treated like a child. The safety aspect is a complete Red Herring. If the PL don't want terraces, then I can guarantee its for 'image' reasons and the fear of some sort of trouble.

Sponsors wouldn't want that would they ...and there you have your answer.

[cider head]

The sports minister has announced today that the government will consider lifting the ban on standing at top tier grounds

http://www.guardian....roduce-standing

Can't see it happening at the Gate unfortunately purely down to the logistics and costs involved but would love a safe standing section in the new place (fingers crossed)

Wondered what people's thoughts are on this?

The eastend is pretty much made for standing, just a swap of seat / style and job done.

[notsobigfatdave]

Yeah, it was the Leppings lane end.

I suppose you're right, But hindsight is the only tool for attributing "blame" as the other poster wanted to do.

It was a tragedy and there are many aspects of it that should and could have been policed better, and other aspects where the fans should have acted differently.

Anyway, safe standing areas are not a return to terracing, The majority of stands will still be seated one would imagine, putting to bed the PL's pathetic argument about families and women attending, having one end that has safe standing simply gives fans a choice.

This is an opportunity to fight back on at least one of the areas where football fans are treated like criminals, we should all be showing our support for a fans right to sit or stand as they wish, and be given the safest means to do so.

Wasnt looking to attribute Blame at all...Blame and cause are two different things...we were in the thick of between 3500 - 4000 mainly Liverpool supporters who were at the Leppings Lane end... the supporters who had tickets were queueing at the stiles in an orderly fashion. We got into the ground literally two minutes before the gates were opened. The sheer numbers of Supporters who had turned up late due to traffic delays was causing problems outside the ground and people where being forced against the turnstiles and knocked to the ground. The police opened the gates to allow supporters with tickets to enter and a free for all insued, they didnt know at the time that the crowd of supporters was going to behave insuch an unruly fashion on hearing the crowd and rage through the gates as they did, the rest is History. There is no doubt in my mind that many of the supporters who caused this disaster did not have tickets and reacted as they did to gain entry. This was a terrible disaster but ts not equitable to lay the Blame at the door of the Police Authorities. As one officer said at the time perhaps we were niave to expect the public to act in a human and orderly fashion.

[JD74]

The eastend is pretty much made for standing, just a swap of seat / style and job done.

good point

should be fairly simple to remove seats and fit the required leaning barriers in place

would be awesome !

[Fodbarmyarmy]

Seats have traceability.................................you have a seat = you have a ticket = the authorities have a name & address -

The clubs & Police in our country want to know who is at a game and where (for different reasons granted).............all seaters provide this info a lot easier than terracing............which is why I do not expect to see this happen here..................not unless it is with a restricted membership...similar to current EE set up....that way the authorities KNOW how many are in that area and WHO they are

[Monkeh]

Hillsborough has been discaussed to death so I don't think we need to go over it,

Safe standing will not happen in this country simply because the money men at the top of the game do not want it,

us lowly fans may do but we have no say,

Sad I know but thats it

[054123]

The worst scandel is that committed by the Thatcher in trying to deflect blame from the police and instructing that the inquiry into hillsborough should not focus on anyting past 3.05 as all 'events' which caused deaths had been played out.

Plenty could have been done by the police after this time to save countless lives as independent medics, ambulance drivers etc, who were there, would attriute to.

I have very little love for Liverpool or their fans, but the way Thatcher sought to exhonerate the authorities and shift blame onto the fans she had despised for so long, is shameful.

Hillsborough is a stain on this nations history, but not because of those few hours that afternoon, but the way the event was covered up, the governamnts action after and how the event is now trotted out to prop up ill conceived arguments and false ideas.

I'm sure that the majority of the 96 no longer with us would be horrified to learn what the legacy of their deaths has been used to do to the game and atmosphere they loved.

[Jordan Tansley]

Seats have traceability.................................you have a seat = you have a ticket = the authorities have a name & address -

The clubs & Police in our country want to know who is at a game and where (for different reasons granted).............all seaters provide this info a lot easier than terracing............which is why I do not expect to see this happen here..................not unless it is with a restricted membership...similar to current EE set up....that way the authorities KNOW how many are in that area and WHO they are

But you a designated "seat" in safe standing area's, so the traceability is still there.

[Blagdon red]

It's good that Don Foster has got this issue higher up the political agenda, but the EPL and co. are yet to be convinced. They have effectively conceded the safety argument, but now say there is 'no demand'.

It is vital, therefore, that fans show that there IS demand by signing the Football Supporters Federation online petition.

Whether you personally prefer to stand or sit, it is clearly better for you to be amongst like-minded fans in the stadium. If you like to sit, clearly you don't want standing fans in front of you (as sometimes happens when we go away and are made to sit in prescribed seats, rather than the standers being allowed to congregate at the back), and if you like to stand, it's clearly better to do so along with others who prefer to watch their footy that way.

So either way, please sign the petition.

As regulars on here will know, 'safe standing' is an issue I've been banging on about for years. Shortly I'll be running around the country preaching the gospel with a demonstration unit to show politicians, club officials and fans what the FSF and co. actually mean when they say 'safe standing' - and it is certainly not old-style terraces, as to get politiciains to agree to 'going back' to something they had previously banned is non-starter. They'll never admit they got it wrong, so the way forward has to be a new solution, which allows them to say "Well, now that this new option is available, of course, we don't want to stand in the way of progress. What a shame is wasn't available 20 years ago. Please go ahead".

Full info on the 'Safe Standing Roadshow' can be found on this (90% finished) website: www.SafeStandingRoadshow.co.uk

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[EmersonsKev]

Maybe Sheff Wed should have had a safety certificate for there stadium not one that had lapsed 18 months prior.

[cityhead]

I was there along with my teenage brother on that Fateful day in 1989. My cousin at the time was a Forrest Player.

The Police, in my opinion were made scapegoats by the Authorities in the enquiry which ensued. The removal of the terraces would not have prevented that particular disaster, never!

The cause was thousands of Liverpool supporters, the majority of which who did not have tickets, storming through an entrance gate.

I would love to see terraces return to the grounds.

seconded - that was the 'liverpool' way for which they have never accepted any of the responsibility.

[Nibor]

I'd like to see terracing or at least safe standing back but I don't think we will.

It's nothing to do with Hillborough IMO, more to do with gentrification of the game now that there's so much money in it.

Just look at the brief our stadium architects were given: something open and airy with plenty of light?

I would have wanted something dark, close and intense like a seething cauldron. But then I'm not taking my missus and kids or my clients.

[redcityman]

good point

should be fairly simple to remove seats and fit the required leaning barriers in place

would be awesome !

Would leave it till the new stadium is built, I would imagine installing safe standing could cost at least as much if not more than standard seating, it's not just the odd barrier here and there, in fact its a barrier along each row incorperating a seat as well.

But yes I agree a sadr standing area would improve the atmosphere no end.

[WellRedPhil]

A safe standing area in the new stadium would be the thing I'd look forward to most about it and if the stadium goes ahead I'd love for it to have a safe standing zone.

[Blagdon red]

I'd like to see terracing or at least safe standing back but I don't think we will.

It's nothing to do with Hillborough IMO, more to do with gentrification of the game now that there's so much money in it.

Just look at the brief our stadium architects were given: something open and airy with plenty of light?

I would have wanted something dark, close and intense like a seething cauldron. But then I'm not taking my missus and kids or my clients.

I think it may happen ... and I think it may ultimately, and ironically, get driven by our good friend 'Premier League greed'!

How can the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and other top Premier League clubs whose grounds are sold out every week get even more money out of us fans? Answer: change some of the seats to standing and get more people in (current stadium safety rules would allow 1,800 standing fans per 1,000 seating places).

The clubs could offer a reasonable discount on the ticket price for standing and still make plenty of extra revenue ... the installation costs at top EPL clubs could be recouped within a handful of games.

More here

And don't forget to sign that FSF petition and send the link to all your friends.

[WellRedPhil]

In the Sky article the PL spokesman says soemthing along the lines of "no matter how safe standing can be seating is always safer" but wasn't this proved to be complete bullshit by an independant study?

[Blagdon red]

In the Sky article the PL spokesman says soemthing along the lines of "no matter how safe standing can be seating is always safer" but wasn't this proved to be complete bullshit by an independant study?

Yes - Trafford Borough proved it. Getting up and down off a seat is more dangerous than permanently standing.

Trafford had hoped to show that standing was dangerous to help them to stop persistent standing at Old Trafford ... but their own research backfired on them!

According to media reports, most people at the meeting on Monday conceded that safety is not a good reason to say no to safe standing. What they came up with this time was "there's no demand" ... so we need to show that there is, hence the

FSF Safe Standing Petition

[WTFiGO!?!]

The intense, passionate atmosphere that pro-standing people claim would be aided by the re-introduction of standing is the polar opposite to the atmoshere that the authoreties and their sponsor are looking to manipulate.

That and the fact crowds are easier to monitor via CCTV with seat allocation are the reasons we're denighed choice.

Every other line they reel out is an insulting load of baloney.

[bringbacktherobin]

Seats have traceability.................................you have a seat = you have a ticket = the authorities have a name & address -

The clubs & Police in our country want to know who is at a game and where (for different reasons granted).............all seaters provide this info a lot easier than terracing............which is why I do not expect to see this happen here..................not unless it is with a restricted membership...similar to current EE set up....that way the authorities KNOW how many are in that area and WHO they are

Sorry that makes no sense. The eastend is unreserved, you can pick a different place to stand each game. Someone could have a st, say if there ever was trouble, be naughty, run away, never come back again and nothing would ever happen.

That doesnt make sense. How does me being a season ticket, make any difference to the club asking for someone's name and address being selling them a east end ticket.

The authorities would know how many are in their anyway.

[publandlord]

I lived in Sheffield for around 10 years before the disaster I have been to Hillsboro many many times and took a great interest in the Taylor Report. There was lots of misinformation in the popular press much of which is repeated above (even by the poster who was there on the day)

Firstly the taylor enquiry blew up photographs of the leppings lane end and physically counted every supporter in the end. It was proved as a whole the Leppings Lane end was UNDER capacity so talk of gates being opened supporters rushing in without tickets is just plain WRONG

What caused the disaster (well having been to 90 league grounds around the country there is not a similar set up anywhere in England.)

The Leppings lane end at the time had fences in front but also lateral fences to divide the end into 4pens the key difference was that the 2 middle pens were accessable only by a tunnel under the seated accommodation above. When entering the tunnel you could not see whether the pen you were entering was full or not. Tickets were for the whole end and you could choose which pen you went into.

The Taylor report found by inspecting photographs that although the end as a whole was UNDER capacity and unsafe number of people were in the 2 middle pens with the fencing preventing their exit (Thank God the Bradford fire was in an unfenced ground). People were also crushed in the dark tunnel leading to the middle 2 pens.

So why did this not happen in every semi final Because at all previous semi finals at the ground, when the middle pens became full 10 policemen linked arms and prevented fans from entering the tunnel leading to the middle 2 pens. A simple solution but very effective. What happened this time was that the police commander did not order the entrance to be blocked. People poured into the tunnel to their deaths because they could not see the danger they were entering.

The cause for the disaster was simple lateral fences and police inaction

Dont believe everything you read in the papers

Not drunk fans

Not opening the gates or gates forced open by fans

The end was under capacity and the police simply did not do their job (any for this screw up the police commander was promoted and last time I heard occupied a senior position in the West Yorkshire police after he left the South Yorkshire force). The local ground licensing authority did not take any blame for their insistance for the installation of lateral fences either

[cider head]

I think the powers that be should rquest a visit from this safe standing roadshow to ashton gate!!

http://www.safestand...request-a-visit

Request a visit

This is the page to read if you would like to have the Safe Standing Roadshow demonstration unit come to visit you. If you are involved in a local safe standing campaign, a representative of a Supporters Trust, Supporters Club or for any other reason interested in learning more about safe standing and would like the opportunity to show people associated with your club what hi-rail seats are all about, simply get in touch and we'll look to fix a date.

Audi advertising banner for illustrative purposes onlyWhat do you get?

We'll bring the roadshow demonstration unit to you and set it up at your venue (indoors or outdoors). A couple of helping hands woulnd't go amiss at your end, as the unit is not light(!) - although it breaks down into several parts and is fairly mobile. Fully assembled it is approximately 2 metres wide by 1.6 metres deep by 1.5m high (c. 2m high including the demountable rear advertising board). As well as the unit, we'll also bring along some literature and one or two people able to answers most questions on safe standing issues in general and on hi-rail seats in particular.

What do we expect from you?

The whole objective of this roadshow is to spread the word about rail seats. What we ask of you, therefore, is that you arrange at your end to have as many key people lined up to take a look at the unit as possible. These may include:

• The club chairman, chief executive, stadium manager and/or safety officer
• The local council safety officer
• A police representative responsible for the policing of your club's ground
• Local MPs
• Local councillors
• The media
• Celebrity fans
• Supporters groups

You are free to decide who would like to have us meet. In some cases, for instance if meeting club officials, you may wish not to invite the press. On other occasions, for instance if a local MP or celebrity fan has promised to turn up, a snapshot for the paper or a couple of minutes on regional TV could create ideal exposure for the hi-rail concept. You know your locality and your club best, so it's up to you!

What does it cost?

Nothing. If you'd like to contribute to fuel costs (how about £50?), we wouldn't say no, but your real job is to line up some of the key decision-makers and/or opinion-formers outlined above.

What do you need to do next?

Simply Contact Us and let's take it from there!