Terracing To Return?

[Blagdon red]

I think the powers that be should rquest a visit from this safe standing roadshow to ashton gate!!

http://www.safestand...request-a-visit

Request a visit

This is the page to read if you would like to have the Safe Standing Roadshow demonstration unit come to visit you. If you are involved in a local safe standing campaign, a representative of a Supporters Trust, Supporters Club or for any other reason interested in learning more about safe standing and would like the opportunity to show people associated with your club what hi-rail seats are all about, simply get in touch and we'll look to fix a date.

Audi advertising banner for illustrative purposes onlyWhat do you get?

We'll bring the roadshow demonstration unit to you and set it up at your venue (indoors or outdoors). A couple of helping hands woulnd't go amiss at your end, as the unit is not light(!) - although it breaks down into several parts and is fairly mobile. Fully assembled it is approximately 2 metres wide by 1.6 metres deep by 1.5m high (c. 2m high including the demountable rear advertising board). As well as the unit, we'll also bring along some literature and one or two people able to answers most questions on safe standing issues in general and on hi-rail seats in particular.

What do we expect from you?

The whole objective of this roadshow is to spread the word about rail seats. What we ask of you, therefore, is that you arrange at your end to have as many key people lined up to take a look at the unit as possible. These may include:

• The club chairman, chief executive, stadium manager and/or safety officer
• The local council safety officer
• A police representative responsible for the policing of your club's ground
• Local MPs
• Local councillors
• The media
• Celebrity fans
• Supporters groups

You are free to decide who would like to have us meet. In some cases, for instance if meeting club officials, you may wish not to invite the press. On other occasions, for instance if a local MP or celebrity fan has promised to turn up, a snapshot for the paper or a couple of minutes on regional TV could create ideal exposure for the hi-rail concept. You know your locality and your club best, so it's up to you!

What does it cost?

Nothing. If you'd like to contribute to fuel costs (how about £50?), we wouldn't say no, but your real job is to line up some of the key decision-makers and/or opinion-formers outlined above.

What do you need to do next?

Simply Contact Us and let's take it from there!

Watch this space!

[cider head]

Watch this space!

I'll be watching

[Blagdon red]

I'll be watching

Here's the latest info:

The 'hi-rail seats' have been supplied by Eheim from Germany (they'e done the Hoffenheim and Stuttgart grounds). They've sent them over to their UK partners, Ferco, who are based near Shrewsbury (their best-known stadium installation in this country is the Emirates, where they installed all 60,000 seats). Ferco are now going to build the unit pictured above. They're a bit behind schedule, but hopefully it'll be ready within a couple of weeks and then we'll be getting it out and about ... and BS3 is sure to be one of the ports of call!

PS: I believe - and this is, of course, most important (!) - that the seats they've sent over are RED (as they're spares from the VfB Stuttgart job... and Stuttgart wear red, like all the best teams that the world has ever seen!).

[cider head]

Here's the latest info:

The 'hi-rail seats' have been supplied by Eheim from Germany (they'e done the Hoffenheim and Stuttgart grounds). They've sent them over to their UK partners, Ferco, who are based near Shrewsbury (their best-known stadium installation in this country is the Emirates, where they installed all 60,000 seats). Ferco are now going to build the unit pictured above. They're a bit behind schedule, but hopefully it'll be ready within a couple of weeks and then we'll be getting it out and about ... and BS3 is sure to be one of the ports of call!

PS: I believe - and this is, of course, most important (!) - that the seats they've sent over are RED (as they're spares from the VfB Stuttgart job... and Stuttgart wear red, like all the best teams that the world has ever seen!).

sounds encouraging, any roadshow to hit bs3 and AG would be met my a good turn out.

[Blagdon red]

sounds encouraging, any roadshow to hit bs3 and AG would be met my a good turn out.

BTW, David Conn has done a full page on this in today's Guardian. Page 5 of the sports section in the hard copy and in a slightly more abbreviated version here online:

Campaign to reinstate standing to go on tour of grounds

And that FSF petition is still waiting for you to sign up, if you haven't already (and 6,000 have inside one day):

FSF safe standing petition

... the comments that many people have left should be mandatory reading for all football club officials! They just show how much passion there is out there about this issue.

[cider head]

BTW, David Conn has done a full page on this in today's Guardian. Page 5 of the sports section in the hard copy and in a slightly more abbreviated version here online:

Campaign to reinstate standing to go on tour of grounds

And that FSF petition is still waiting for you to sign up, if you haven't already (and 6,000 have inside one day):

FSF safe standing petition

... the comments that many people have left should be mandatory reading for all football club officials! They just show how much passion there is out there about this issue.

Good stuff.. all signed

[Mr Popodopolous]

Small addition to the Hillsborough thing. As I understand it, some of these Liverpool fans pushing to get in at that end were late and this was close to kick off. Now, there had been major roadworks on one of the routes that day (I forget the exact road/city) hence they were running late. If there were quite a lot of fans delayed through roadworks, would delaying kick off have made a difference? As another poster stated, the side fences at well were the key killer IMO- without them then Liverpool fans in an overcrowded area could have gone sideways.

[chalky]

Signed signed signed! There is no argument against the introduction of safe standing and every day I am baffled as to how it is still not in place.

[chalky]

If safe standing is introduced at the new stadium I would be FOR the move and would definitely buy a ST!!

http://www.fsf.org.uk/news/safestanding.php

[BCAGFC]

Have english football fans got the discipline to use safe standing areas properly?.

BCAGFC

[bringbacktherobin]

Have english football fans got the discipline to use safe standing areas properly?.

BCAGFC

Your right, the eastend is pure carnage every week as people can stand.

[cider head]

Have english football fans got the discipline to use safe standing areas properly?.

BCAGFC

Well some fans don't have the discipline through the years to use seated areas properly by standing in them so safe standing is the right choice for these fans, and thats it, choice is the key here not seating vs standing fans, the choice to do either is whats needed for both style of fan.

[Jordan Tansley]

Well some fans don't have the discipline through the years to use seated areas properly by standing in them so safe standing is the right choice for these fans, and thats it, choice is the key here not seating vs standing fans, the choice to do either is whats needed for both style of fan.

Nail on head.

This petition should be signed by every football fan, regardless of their personal views on standing at football.

We should have the choice to sit or stand, and be supplied with the safest means in order to do that. Safe Standing (Not a return to Terracing) is the only way that can happen.

One area in a stadium where fans who want to stand and sing and all the rest is completely risk free as far as I can see, If the fear is it will in some obscene way insight violence then put the standing area at the opposite end of the ground to the away fans, Who will still be housed in some cosy seating.

We have hundreds who moan (quite rightly, I suppose) that people stand in front of them at the football, and that problem would be undone with safestanding too!

I sit/stand on the back row of teh Dolman, and I'm not restricting anyones view... yet stewards tell us to sit down... I'd like to be able to stand in peace in an area designed to incorporate fans just like me.

[Barrs Court Red]

Interestingly the news of the world seems to be against going by a comment by the chief sportswriter. I didn't see anything in the sunday times though.

If the fsf want this to work, they need to get tabloid support.

[Blagdon red]

Interestingly the news of the world seems to be against going by a comment by the chief sportswriter. I didn't see anything in the sunday times though.

If the fsf want this to work, they need to get tabloid support.

Know any redtop journos who might like to champion this?

[Barrs Court Red]

Know any redtop journos who might like to champion this?

Well I can think of at least 2 City fans working at one well known rag alone.

[Blagdon red]

Well I can think of at least 2 City fans working at one well known rag alone.

I wonder if they might see this and jump on board! Would be good to have their support. Or perhaps someone who knows them could point them in my direction?

[Frome Valley]

I think it may happen ... and I think it may ultimately, and ironically, get driven by our good friend 'Premier League greed'!

How can the likes of Man Utd, Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal and other top Premier League clubs whose grounds are sold out every week get even more money out of us fans? Answer: change some of the seats to standing and get more people in (current stadium safety rules would allow 1,800 standing fans per 1,000 seating places).

The clubs could offer a reasonable discount on the ticket price for standing and still make plenty of extra revenue ... the installation costs at top EPL clubs could be recouped within a handful of games.

More here

And don't forget to sign that FSF petition and send the link to all your friends.

I might be being thick here, but if a safe standing area is installed with seats and rails doesn't that mean it would still be 1000 fans to 1000 seats, or is the example of 1,800 standing fans per 1,000 seating places using a different system of safe standing?

[Jordan Tansley]

I might be being thick here, but if a safe standing area is installed with seats and rails doesn't that mean it would still be 1000 fans to 1000 seats, or is the example of 1,800 standing fans per 1,000 seating places using a different system of safe standing?

there are two steps, so space for two standing fans between each barrier, but when the seat is down, the second step is lost, therfore half as many spaces

[Frome Valley]

there are two steps, so space for two standing fans between each barrier, but when the seat is down, the second step is lost, therfore half as many spaces

I am interested in the regulation of this and how areas are sold e.g unreserved, numbers per row or seating number.

[Cambridge Batch Red]

The police will always say terracing is unsafe. They want to deflect the blame for hilsborough away from themselves. They also just want families sat down watching football, they don't want raucous young men behaving in an excited manner.

They want to save that for themselves. Just ask Ian Tomlinson.

[Jordan Tansley]

I am interested in the regulation of this and how areas are sold e.g unreserved, numbers per row or seating number.

I guess Blagdon is the best man to ask, as I have no Idea!

[Blagdon red]

I am interested in the regulation of this and how areas are sold e.g unreserved, numbers per row or seating number.

How this may be done in this country will naturally be down to the regulations brought in at the time to accommodate it, should the campaign succeed.

The way it is done in Germany, for instance, is that you buy a ticket (barcode-controlled entry as here) for a specific block. German safety regulations limit the maximum size of any block to 2,500 standing fans (i.e. in a stadium operating on a 2:1 ratio of standing fans to seats an area with 1,250 rail seats fitted). The turnstile by which you enter and the stewards who later check your ticket as you leave the concourse area ensure that you enter the correct block. Once inside you are free to choose where you stand. In reality most German fan groups have their own regular spots and go there. Stewards and 'volunteer stewards' among the fans themselves ensure that the stairways are kept clear.

I would imagine arrangements might be similar here. In addition to a limit on the size of any individual block, there would also be (as there is now for lower league clubs) strict rules on the minimum required height of the rails (currently 1.02m) and the maximum permitted pitch of the deck (now 25 degrees). All in all, all very safe and appropriately controlled, while allowing fans that want to stand to do so without having to feel like criminals and allowing those that want to sit to attend games safe in the knowledge that their club's standing fans will be in the standing section, not in front of their seat!

(And for clubs with stands suitable for retrofitting with rail seats an opportunity to increase gate receipts even if they choose to sell standing tickets at an appropriate discount - as shown here).

[Frome Valley]

[Monkeh]

[Blagdon red]

[Frome Valley]

Actually Germany has four versions of standing accommodation:

1. Normal terraces (with no option to convert to seating - mainly in the lower leagues, as here)

2. Normal terraces with brackets on the steps to which seats mounted on long girders are bolted in place for UEFA games (e.g. at Schalke 04)

3. Terraces with every other step made of aluminium under which is a fold-away seat that is pulled up for UEFA games (at HSV)

4. Rail seats, as used at e.g. Hoffenheim, Stuttgart, Leverkusen, Bremen, HSV (upper tier), Hannover and Wolfsburg

The FSF campaign proposes exclusively the use of option 4, i.e. rail seats.

This has several benefits:

- such areas don't look like 'terraces' and thus the inherent opposition to terracing that some people have is avoided since even to opponents of standing it is patently obvious that with every fan having a rail either immediately in front of them or immediately behind them they provide a very high level of safety, indeed greater than when standing behind low-backed seats, as is tacitly allowed by clubs up and down the country every week at present

- they are a move forward, not a move back

- they enable a club to maintain the flexibility to switch easily to all-seater configuration for any games played under UEFA regs. (and all top-flight clubs will clearly have aspirations to play in or host such games)

- they enable a club to make more revenue than by putting 'normal' seats in the same area, while simultaneously reducing ticket prices (if they wish) and making the game more socially inclusive

Re the new stadium, the club did confirm that the design of the stand decks would not preclude the installation of rail seats at some future date should the rules change / the club management at that point wish to do so.

Cheers I finally have my head round that.

V normal seating what are the costs of the model you will be demonstrating?

[Blagdon red]

Cheers I finally have my head round that.

V normal seating what are the costs of the model you will be demonstrating?

Cost per seat is in the region of 100 euros. That could be as much as 3 times the cost of a very basic plastic seat.

Clearly, therefore, there has to be a good return on investment argument for the clubs. That is two-fold:

Increased capacity (= higher gate receipts and higher match-day spend; converting 4,000 seats to 7,200 standing places, for example, can generate an extra £1m over 20 games [using the Premier League's own figures). See here).

There is also a not inconsiderable hidden cost of installing cheap plastic seats that these metal rail seats will eliminate, i.e. that or replacing broken ones. One large Premier League club has to replace, I am told, over 300 seats after EVERY game! That clearly tots up not just in the cost of the seats but in retaining a full-time maintenance crew to install them. And it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out that the areas in which most of the seats are getting broken are precisely those areas where fans are persistently standing. So, give them their own area with no plastic seats and the repair bill drops dramatically!

And add to that the unquantifiable value of attracting new life-time fans to the game by providing the modern generation with the something of the matchday experience that got all of today's 40-something fans hooked for life! That's worth many millions more!