Did I Watch A Different Game

[Monkeh]

I thought it was poor that we didn't create more against 10 men, and also didn't understand Stead playing out wide.

However those who think Ipswich are "average" are deluded, a midfield pairing of Bullard and Norris is light years better than ours, Wickham may have had to play up top on his own for an hour so did little but he'll go for a fortune one day, whilst Carlos Edwards is a quality full back and their two centre backs, McCauley and Delaney looked as strong as any we've faced.

In the real world we are about a 14th place Championship side and I'll bet the wages Ipswich pay exceed ours, (the post saying that we should look at Bullard really made me laugh) that isn't to say we shouldn't strive to achieve more, but sometimes the opposition do their job better than we do ours and Saturday was one of those days.

there's been far to many of those days this season thats the point

[marmite]

If the senior pros have lost interest in this season cos there is nowt to play for, then give the youngsters a few games to see what they can offer. I doubt they will be short of enthusiasm and effort, both sadly missing v Ipswich.

[SJC]

This season has been a whole host of conflicting messages.

Whilst it has ultimately been satisfactory given it is a new managers first full one, the manner, flow if you will, has been confusing and incredibly hard to decipher.

Very much playing devils advocate you could hold any number of the following viewpoints;

Millen inherited a mess after Coppell departed, and as such he has done well to steady the ship.

Coppell's tenure was fleeting at best, Millen picked up where he'd left off, if anything the manner of his appointment should have aided him/the club.

Wigley did not do enough to guide Millen early, especially tactically where we were erratic.

Wigley's influence, perhaps crucially, presumably, in the recruitment of Caulker, has all but saved our season.

Millen is a new manager, is finding his feet, and as such tactical indecision should be expected.

Millen has displayed tactical naivity and continues to make baffling choices.

We've had horrendous luck with injuries and once people started returning to fitness our season improved.

Maynard saved our season.

Millen/Wigley have signed well, shrewd business combined with focus on youth.

Millen/Wigley have failed to address key issues within the squad, notably full back and centre midfield.

No doubt there are more.

The problem being that cases could be argued for all of those, some with more conviction than others, and everyone will hold their own opinions.

I personally believe that this season has been a huge disappointment, one in which, all things considered, we've significantly underachieved. However, that said, it is my belief that Millen/Wigley have done a satisfactory job.

Those two statements certainly appear to contradict each other, which is in part, as I touched upon, due to the manner in which the season unfolded, but that is my view.

First 15 games of next season wil make or break the management pairing. An awful lot of fans, whether they realise it or not - and to be perfectly honest im very much in this bracket, are currently fence sitting, new chairman, revitalised board, if we dont start next season strongly the knives will be out.

[Bar BS3]

This season has been a whole host of conflicting messages.

Whilst it has ultimately been satisfactory given it is a new managers first full one, the manner, flow if you will, has been confusing and incredibly hard to decipher.

Very much playing devils advocate you could hold any number of the following viewpoints;

Millen inherited a mess after Coppell departed, and as such he has done well to steady the ship.

Coppell's tenure was fleeting at best, Millen picked up where he'd left off, if anything the manner of his appointment should have aided him/the club.

Wigley did not do enough to guide Millen early, especially tactically where we were erratic.

Wigley's influence, perhaps crucially, presumably, in the recruitment of Caulker, has all but saved our season.

Millen is a new manager, is finding his feet, and as such tactical indecision should be expected.

Millen has displayed tactical naivity and continues to make baffling choices.

We've had horrendous luck with injuries and once people started returning to fitness our season improved.

Maynard saved our season.

Millen/Wigley have signed well, shrewd business combined with focus on youth.

Millen/Wigley have failed to address key issues within the squad, notably full back and centre midfield.

No doubt there are more.

The problem being that cases could be argued for all of those, some with more conviction than others, and everyone will hold their own opinions.

I personally believe that this season has been a huge disappointment, one in which, all things considered, we've significantly underachieved. However, that said, it is my belief that Millen/Wigley have done a satisfactory job.

Those two statements certainly appear to contradict each other, which is in part, as I touched upon, due to the manner in which the season unfolded, but that is my view.

First 15 games of next season wil make or break the management pairing. An awful lot of fans, whether they realise it or not - and to be perfectly honest im very much in this bracket, are currently fence sitting, new chairman, revitalised board, if we dont start next season strongly the knives will be out.

Very good post - remind me, Is this not what the forum is intended for? A balanced, reasoned arguement for/against said topic? Almost every thread seems to descend into a personal slanging match - usually with the same 3/4 culprits!

Anyway, I would regard myself as being pro-KM and think he has done a decent job thus far.

HOWEVER, I have said all along that the time for review is going to be around late Oct - November time once we have gaged the start we have had to the new season, after his own pre season preperations and transfer activity.

If we are going well then that would be fantastic (probably still not good enough for some though!) Whereas, if we are struggling then i would advocate a review into the situation with view to a possible change or addition to the management team, all depending on what the weaknesses might be.

One way or another, it is going to be an interesting period between now and the end of the year.

[Slave to the rhythm]

However those who think Ipswich are "average" are deluded, a midfield pairing of Bullard and Norris is light years better than ours, Wickham may have had to play up top on his own for an hour so did little but he'll go for a fortune one day, whilst Carlos Edwards is a quality full back and their two centre backs, McCauley and Delaney looked as strong as any we've faced.

I agree with this.

Ipswich have been one of the better sides in our division for the last two seasons and yet they cannot seem to get any higher than mid-table. Very strange.

Am I right in thinking that we haven't beaten them in 8 attempts since we've been back in the Championship?

[The Bard]

I thought it was poor that we didn't create more against 10 men, and also didn't understand Stead playing out wide.

However those who think Ipswich are "average" are deluded, a midfield pairing of Bullard and Norris is light years better than ours, Wickham may have had to play up top on his own for an hour so did little but he'll go for a fortune one day, whilst Carlos Edwards is a quality full back and their two centre backs, McCauley and Delaney looked as strong as any we've faced.

In the real world we are about a 14th place Championship side and I'll bet the wages Ipswich pay exceed ours, (the post saying that we should look at Bullard really made me laugh) that isn't to say we shouldn't strive to achieve more, but sometimes the opposition do their job better than we do ours and Saturday was one of those days.

As usual, very fair minded. They looked to me like a defintie candidate next season. A manager who has got 2 sides promoted out this league, plus a basis of some strong, committed championship players. It is in some ways easier to challenge having had a season of rebuilding previously. If they do get Bullard, they will be top 6, no problems. We struggled to create against them, but that was because they were very well organised defensively, strong and looked to counter whenever they could. Wickham will stay for at least next season and I bet he gets someone in next to him who is good for 20 goals. Edwards at right back was fantastic, as was Bullard.

No offence but those castigating it as an appalling performance are way off radar. It was disappointing, but should prove useful in terms of the management having certain deficiences laid out in front of them. If we have a decent start to the season, we will face more games with our opponents sitting back and we have to be able to move he ball better than we did.

[Nogbad the Bad]

This season has been a whole host of conflicting messages.

Whilst it has ultimately been satisfactory given it is a new managers first full one, the manner, flow if you will, has been confusing and incredibly hard to decipher.

Very much playing devils advocate you could hold any number of the following viewpoints;

Millen inherited a mess after Coppell departed, and as such he has done well to steady the ship.

Coppell's tenure was fleeting at best, Millen picked up where he'd left off, if anything the manner of his appointment should have aided him/the club.

Wigley did not do enough to guide Millen early, especially tactically where we were erratic.

Wigley's influence, perhaps crucially, presumably, in the recruitment of Caulker, has all but saved our season.

Millen is a new manager, is finding his feet, and as such tactical indecision should be expected.

Millen has displayed tactical naivity and continues to make baffling choices.

We've had horrendous luck with injuries and once people started returning to fitness our season improved.

Maynard saved our season.

Millen/Wigley have signed well, shrewd business combined with focus on youth.

Millen/Wigley have failed to address key issues within the squad, notably full back and centre midfield.

No doubt there are more.

The problem being that cases could be argued for all of those, some with more conviction than others, and everyone will hold their own opinions.

I personally believe that this season has been a huge disappointment, one in which, all things considered, we've significantly underachieved. However, that said, it is my belief that Millen/Wigley have done a satisfactory job.

Those two statements certainly appear to contradict each other, which is in part, as I touched upon, due to the manner in which the season unfolded, but that is my view.

First 15 games of next season wil make or break the management pairing. An awful lot of fans, whether they realise it or not - and to be perfectly honest im very much in this bracket, are currently fence sitting, new chairman, revitalised board, if we dont start next season strongly the knives will be out.

I doubt that SJC. It's fairly predictable that the first 15 games of next season under KM will probably follow a familiar pattern.

We will likely have a 'good' run of 7 or 8 games and a 'bad' run of 7 or 8 games with no discernible reason why the dramatic change in form and results occurs.

It could be put down to luck, changes forced by injury/suspension leading to the team suddenly gelling or disintegrating, or simply the calibre of teams we are facing being seen as weaker or stronger.

This would leave us mid table- ish, so no panic, time to improve etc., no calls for change at the ground and plenty of reasons will be put forward for disappointing performances.

No pressure on the management team then because you don't change your manager in November when you're in mid table unless your aims are very high.

I don't think City's are and many fans seem content with the probability that under KM we'll cement a position as a lower mid table Championship club, but are unlikely to progress much further.

I can live fairly happily with that scenario - it's just about our natural position - if the football is entertaining, and our very poor home record improves, but the club must be honest about their ambitions and not make statements that lead fans to expect more.

[Bar BS3]

I agree with this.

Ipswich have been one of the better sides in our division for the last two seasons and yet they cannot seem to get any higher than mid-table. Very strange.

Am I right in thinking that we haven't beaten them in 8 attempts since we've been back in the Championship?

No.

After losing 6-0 away in our first season up in what was the CCC, the return game ended in a 2-0 win for us.

We have also drawn 3 of the other 8 games against them since being in the Championship.

They in turn, have obviously won the remaining 4 fixtures.

[Slave to the rhythm]

No.

After losing 6-0 away in our first season up in what was the CCC, the return game ended in a 2-0 win for us.

We have also drawn 3 of the other 8 games against them since being in the Championship.

They in turn, have obviously won the remaining 4 fixtures.

Thanks. I don't remember that 2-0 win. Must be getting old.

[Chappers]

Again you are missing the point, there are no meaningless games, as supporters paying good money especially during tough times we are entitled to expect our team to put in a professional performance otherwise we might as well just watch them training during the week for entertainment and not waste our money on games that you call meaningless and also it is not just about the meaningless game we narrowly lost but also the other 7 we have lost at home some of them right royal dickings and the other 10 defeats away from home, we are on course for 20 defeats this season and that is unacceptable.

So onwards and upwards for next season and no excuses, I can't wait.

I thought that they did put in a professional performance, but that extra motivation is bound to be lacking, as there is little at stake. From a fans perspective (Or from this fan at least), it lacks any sense of real importance, is not worth getting worked up about, and a sense of perspective needs to be applied. Come August a few of those players won't be around, and we will have a new look side, hopefully re-charged and ready for the new season. It's not been a great season, but with the Coppell affair, and horrendous injuries, that's hardly surprising. We've survived, and in the circumstances, that's the best anyone could have hoped for.

As for wasting money on meaningless games, I can safely say that I have done rather a lot of that over the past 32 years!

Onwards and whatever

[SJC]

I doubt that SJC. It's fairly predictable that the first 15 games of next season under KM will probably follow a familiar pattern.

We will likely have a 'good' run of 7 or 8 games and a 'bad' run of 7 or 8 games with no discernible reason why the dramatic change in form and results occurs.

It could be put down to luck, changes forced by injury/suspension leading to the team suddenly gelling or disintegrating, or simply the calibre of teams we are facing being seen as weaker or stronger.

This would leave us mid table- ish, so no panic, time to improve etc., no calls for change at the ground and plenty of reasons will be put forward for disappointing performances.

No pressure on the management team then because you don't change your manager in November when you're in mid table unless your aims are very high.

I don't think City's are and many fans seem content with the probability that under KM we'll cement a position as a lower mid table Championship club, but are unlikely to progress much further.

I can live fairly happily with that scenario - it's just about our natural position - if the football is entertaining, and our very poor home record improves, but the club must be honest about their ambitions and not make statements that lead fans to expect more.

Fair points Nogbad, to a certain extent inclined to agree on reflection.

I think the progression of Sexstone to chairman along with new board members distinctly remove the loyalty aspect that came with Millen working for the man who had championed him. Of course all will sing from the same song sheet now, but with Lansdown taking a back seat Millen loses the safety net which, arguably, if he didnt rely upon he very much flirted with this year. It suddenly becomes entirely plausible that Millen can be removed without Lansdown's direct consent - in reality what he says goes and thus this is untrue, however the perception that he (Lansdown) was either out voted, buckled to the boards will etc provides an easy get out clause a la the world of 'mutual consent.'

In regard to the clubs ambition, the protracted Ashton Vale battle tells you everything you need to know in regard to what is the, not just long, but short to medium term vision. I would suggest with some degree of certainty that Lansdown and the club have not ventured through village green, planning permission, nimby infested waters so they can settle for being a lower mid table Championship club. Let's not forget that Lansdown pursued Coppell, the man he saw as best suited to realise his ambition. Whatever the clubs official line, the goal is Premier League football.

I think people like to seperate on field and off field activities but the two are intrinsically, inevitably, joined. If we work to the theory that the stadium gets the go ahead, building work starting next summer, in my opinion that thrusts huge weight onto the current management teams shoulders. This season has been poor, it can now, only recently mind you, be viewed as satisfactory in that we've consolidated. But once those struggles have been they form a nagging reference point. Johnson pushed through to ensure our record breaking run of losses became accepted, success born of it, whether or not that run was justified or acceptable at the time is another question, but Millen must do the same, like it or not, in my view, he still has everything to prove.

[Mr Popodopolous]

To sack him would be harsh I think, but I did think we displayed the following flaws on Saturday:

1) Too many long balls. We did start getting it down and passing, wingplay but too late.

2) To compound this, Ipswich had big centre backs and Maynard is not the most physical.

3) Stead on the left was odd- though in this day and age, players have to be flexible and capable of playing more than one position. Round pegs, round holes is IMO antiquated, simplistic thinking though of course it can depend on the players available.

[Slave to the rhythm]

3) Stead on the left was odd- though in this day and age, players have to be flexible and capable of playing more than one position. Round pegs, round holes is IMO antiquated, simplistic thinking though of course it can depend on the players available.

It may be simplistic, but it usually makes sense to play players in the positions to which they are best suited. Playing Stead as a left-winger was anything but sensible.

[Mr Popodopolous]

It may be simplistic, but it usually makes sense to play players in the positions to which they are best suited. Playing Stead as a left-winger was anything but sensible.

Players need to be flexible. Just the other day I saw Pepe playing for Real Madrid just in front of the back 4. He did a decent job despite being a centre back by trade. Maybe it's all relative.I agree about Stead on the left though, didn't understand that one at all.

[Slave to the rhythm]

Players need to be flexible. Just the other day I saw Pepe playing for Real Madrid just in front of the back 4. He did a decent job despite being a centre back by trade. Maybe it's all relative.I agree about Stead on the left though, didn't understand that one at all.

Not sure that Stead, much as I like him, can be compared to a player playing for Real Madrid.

[Robin101]

You honestly think we'll sack a man who, despite having an up-down season, has comfortably consolidated our championship status after that start? Just because we lost to a side that we should probably have beaten? Win some, lose some.

As for the lack of players' passion...i can't understand where this is coming from? I thought they were all pretty worked up trying to get that equaliser and weren't exactly just sitting back not caring.

As for millen, i hope he at least tries to improve our passing game. Although, having said that, stewart and nyatanga don't appear likely pass/move candidates. Ah well.

[GrahamC]

You honestly think we'll sack a man who, despite having an up-down season, has comfortably consolidated our championship status after that start? Just because we lost to a side that we should probably have beaten? Win some, lose some.

As for the lack of players' passion...i can't understand where this is coming from? I thought they were all pretty worked up trying to get that equaliser and weren't exactly just sitting back not caring.

As for millen, i hope he at least tries to improve our passing game. Although, having said that, stewart and nyatanga don't appear likely pass/move candidates. Ah well.

I love stuff like this.

I've seen QPR on Sky twice recently, you know the team about eight points clear at the top.

Their first choice back four is Bradley Orr, Kaspar Gorkss, Matt Connolly and Clint Hill, remind me again, who the Beckenbauer type libero is in that defence?

Stewart and Nyatanaga are in all probability our fourth or fifth choice centre back pairing, but in the 3 league games they've played together we've let in one, hardly the biggest cause for concern, is it?

[Chivs]

I love stuff like this.

I've seen QPR on Sky twice recently, you know the team about eight points clear at the top.

Their first choice back four is Bradley Orr, Kaspar Gorkss, Matt Connolly and Clint Hill, remind me again, who the Beckenbauer type libero is in that defence?

Stewart and Nyatanaga are in all probability our fourth or fifth choice centre back pairing, but in the 3 league games they've played together we've let in one, hardly the biggest cause for concern, is it?

You have a very old-fashioned view of footballers if you think a defender is just around to defend.

In all fairness to our defenders the actual problem is the midfield. The only player who makes regular availability for the defenders is Johnson. And even he struggles to do this from the bench. The rest of the time (and McAllister who I criticised in my original post is most affected) the midfield disappear or just stand and wait. Look at the movement from a throw in. It's static.

I was wondering about Orr who you mention. I always thought of him as a top class defender. His passing could be better (but again he had no options near by) but occasionally his long passing was top drawer (and resulted in goals). Has anyone watched him at QPR? Have they got coaching staff who have improved him? Or is he still launching hopeful punts up field?

[Mr Popodopolous]

You have a very old-fashioned view of footballers if you think a defender is just around to defend.

In all fairness to our defenders the actual problem is the midfield. The only player who makes regular availability for the defenders is Johnson. And even he struggles to do this from the bench. The rest of the time (and McAllister who I criticised in my original post is most affected) the midfield disappear or just stand and wait. Look at the movement from a throw in. It's static.

I was wondering about Orr who you mention. I always thought of him as a top class defender. His passing could be better (but again he had no options near by) but occasionally his long passing was top drawer (and resulted in goals). Has anyone watched him at QPR? Have they got coaching staff who have improved him? Or is he still launching hopeful punts up field?

Excellent post. As I've stressed many times, footballers need to be multifunctional these days. Yeah, our movement needs work, passing too. I was thinking the other day about the evolution of football- again different levels require different skill sets but Pique is one who springs to mind in terms of defenders who are excellent in possession and can score goals- don't just mean from set pieces, mostly headers either.His goal vs Inter for example was lovely given he was a centre back. Having saiod that, Barcelona are the best team around right now, Spain probably the best national side so it's not a fair comparison. A better one I suppose, Caulker- he seemed comfortable in possession no doubt, I remember his pinpoint long pass to Keogh at Preston as one fine example.

[spudski]

I've stressed this many times this season...We just don't keep possession.

Against 10 men for the best part of over half the game, we still had less percentage possession than Ipswich. Which is plain ridiculous.

Look at all our fixture reports and you will see we have had more than 50% possession only a handfull of times all season.

We desperatly need a Midfielder who can control the game, in the Hartley mode. Playing with 2 wingers has become so predictable.

As for Millen going...not a chance.

As for next season... more of the same probably. A good run, a bad run. Mid table obscurity.

As for the OP...Fair play mate...at least you made your feelings known. So many on here have their head so far up Millens ass, and won't hear a bad word against him, even if it is deserved. Constructive critisism is always welcome in my book.

[GrahamC]

The point I was trying to make was that QPR are running away with the league despite not having this mythical Beckenbauer type centre half we apparently now need. They have also done so despite having Shaun Derry in their side, too, someone who makes Kalifa Cisse appear like Glenn Hoddle.

We do need more creativity in midfield, we do need more movement off the ball, but despite the Caulker comparison and to me he's a brilliant defender but not exactly a world beater in distributing the ball, this can be done with a solid no nonsense defence.

[havanatopia]

I was wondering about Orr who you mention. I always thought of him as a top class defender. His passing could be better (but again he had no options near by) but occasionally his long passing was top drawer (and resulted in goals). Has anyone watched him at QPR? Have they got coaching staff who have improved him? Or is he still launching hopeful punts up field?

Colin talked about 3 or 4 players in one of their recent wins as stand out players; Orr was one of them. He plays him, he likes him and I think it is fair to say he probably has a new lease of life at Lofty Road.

[spudski]

Colin talked about 3 or 4 players in one of their recent wins as stand out players; Orr was one of them. He plays him, he likes him and I think it is fair to say he probably has a new lease of life at Lofty Road.

I can definately seem him being used as a squad player or released if they go up though.

Warnock has spoken recently about buying new players for next season.

[havanatopia]

Squad player I am sure as opposed to releasing him. Be good to see how he fairs.