Ipswich 1 Norwich 5

[chinapig]

We couldn't score at home against a 10-man Ipswich. Norwich put 5 past them away. They could afford to have the likes of Lansbury and Pacheco on the bench. Perhaps an indication of just how far behind the best teams in this league we are? Seems odd to me that despite having a much better squad on paper we have slipped such a long way down the pecking order compared to the play off final team. Keith is going to have to do a hell of a job, and on a shoestring, to get anywhere near Norwich's standard it seems to me.

[havanatopia]

50% is down to confidence. We had that in our first season back in division 2. 4 seasons in and we need an exceptional manager to get anywhere near promotion.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

We couldn't score at home against a 10-man Ipswich. Norwich put 5 past them away. They could afford to have the likes of Lansbury and Pacheco on the bench. Perhaps an indication of just how far behind the best teams in this league we are? Seems odd to me that despite having a much better squad on paper we have slipped such a long way down the pecking order compared to the play off final team. Keith is going to have to do a hell of a job, and on a shoestring, to get anywhere near Norwich's standard it seems to me.

Our first season it was only West Brom who really looked the part, us, Stoke, Watford, Hull and Palace were the best of the rest, but even West Brom wernt a million miles ahead of the rest. Since then there have always seemed to be more 'better' sides, no real suprises

[chinapig]

Our first season it was only West Brom who really looked the part, us, Stoke, Watford, Hull and Palace were the best of the rest, but even West Brom wernt a million miles ahead of the rest. Since then there have always seemed to be more 'better' sides, no real suprises

I'm inclined to agree yet at the start of every season the consensus on this forum tends to be that "it's not a very good league this year". Which still begs the question have we got a lot worse or has everybody else got a lot better? For me the main contrast with that first season is in our defending, which has certainly got much worse. Yet 3 of that year's defence are still close to automatic choices when fit, the other (Orr) having moved on, regardless of that deterioration in their performance. Will be interesting to see if Keith is still clinging on to them next season.

[GrahamC]

I'm inclined to agree yet at the start of every season the consensus on this forum tends to be that "it's not a very good league this year". Which still begs the question have we got a lot worse or has everybody else got a lot better? For me the main contrast with that first season is in our defending, which has certainly got much worse. Yet 3 of that year's defence are still close to automatic choices when fit, the other (Orr) having moved on, regardless of that deterioration in their performance. Will be interesting to see if Keith is still clinging on to them next season.

I'd guess that only Fontaine will be.

It isn't unreasonable to expect that we will look to bring in Billy Jones and Jordan Spence, if we possibly can this summer (and if not the latter, then a replacement).

A back four something like; Spence, Stewart, Fontaine, Jones for the first game in August would show where we intend going.

[The hand of RO'D]

I'd guess that only Fontaine will be.

It isn't unreasonable to expect that we will look to bring in Billy Jones and Jordan Spence, if we possibly can this summer (and if not the latter, then a replacement).

A back four something like; Spence, Stewart, Fontaine, Jones for the first game in August would show where we intend going.

Add Caulker to that mix and were in dream land!

[somered]

Our first season it was only West Brom who really looked the part, us, Stoke, Watford, Hull and Palace were the best of the rest, but even West Brom wernt a million miles ahead of the rest. Since then there have always seemed to be more 'better' sides, no real suprises

Didn't we lose 6-0 to Ipswich that year?

[chinapig]

Didn't we lose 6-0 to Ipswich that year?

Sure but a one off. Shorlty after we beat them 2-0. Most of the season we were outstanding defensively and of course had Basso before he lost it. It certainly wasn't our prolific attack that got us to the play offs. Imagine what might have been if Albert, Nicky and Brett had been in that team. But players who would put their bodies on the line then are not inclined to any more. Since then we've had an embarrassing season of last minute goals and subsequently some equally embarrassing heavy defeats at home. This season the defence can look solid one game and a shambles the next. Keith badly needs to sort it out imo.

[chinapig]

I'd guess that only Fontaine will be.

It isn't unreasonable to expect that we will look to bring in Billy Jones and Jordan Spence, if we possibly can this summer (and if not the latter, then a replacement).

A back four something like; Spence, Stewart, Fontaine, Jones for the first game in August would show where we intend going.

I do hope you're right. But it is the likes of Carey, McAllister and Fontaine who have been teflon, not Keith so I'm not holding my breath. It's as if numerous abject performances over an extended period never happened and their reputations remained unblemished (well not entirely, McAllister gets disproportionate stick while the others are free of responsibility). Carey and McAllister have age as an excuse perhaps but Fontaine is an enigma. In that first season he looked a great prospect and I fully expected he would be in the Prem by now. Unlike the likes of Roger Johnson and Scott Dann (he looked as good as them imo at the time) however he effectively stopped improving. Perhaps life is too comfortable?

[Phileas Fogg]

I think its fair to say we had a ridiculous amount of luck in that first season. I remember a 1-0 win at Sheffield Weds where we were battered the whole game! There were several occasions that season where we were obviously outclassed but still managed to get a result.

In addition to that, we were battered a couple of times that season Ipswich 6-0 and West Brom 4-1 away which we haven't been this season.

I would also wager that if both sides has a full strength team with fully fit teams - (James, McAllister, Caulker, Fontaine, Spence, JCR, Elliot, Cisse, Adomah, Maynard, Stead) vs (Basso, McAllister, Carey, Fontaine, Orr, McIndoe, Elliot, Johnson, Noble, Adebola, Trundle) and played each other 10x, the current team would beat that season's team more times in the 10 games. (That is entirely theoretical but I hope that makes sense!!)

I think what we don't have this season that we had that playoff season was that never say die attitude and belief that we could get the sometimes very fortunate results we got that season.

Overall, IMO this season's team is stronger. What we don't have is that rub of the green we had that season and also an absence of genuine belief that we can make comebacks.

[Economou]

Leadbitter played last night, a Lazurus-like recovery !

Seriously though I thought concussion victims had a mandatory three week lay off ?

[Chappers]

Our squad is not that good on paper... or grass.

[chinapig]

I think its fair to say we had a ridiculous amount of luck in that first season. I remember a 1-0 win at Sheffield Weds where we were battered the whole game! There were several occasions that season where we were obviously outclassed but still managed to get a result.

In addition to that, we were battered a couple of times that season Ipswich 6-0 and West Brom 4-1 away which we haven't been this season.

I would also wager that if both sides has a full strength team with fully fit teams - (James, McAllister, Caulker, Fontaine, Spence, JCR, Elliot, Cisse, Adomah, Maynard, Stead) vs (Basso, McAllister, Carey, Fontaine, Orr, McIndoe, Elliot, Johnson, Noble, Adebola, Trundle) and played each other 10x, the current team would beat that season's team more times in the 10 games. (That is entirely theoretical but I hope that makes sense!!)

I think what we don't have this season that we had that playoff season was that never say die attitude and belief that we could get the sometimes very fortunate results we got that season.

Overall, IMO this season's team is stronger. What we don't have is that rub of the green we had that season and also an absence of genuine belief that we can make comebacks.

I don't share the view that defending well when under pressure is good luck any more than defending badly is bad luck. Perhaps if the opposition keeps missing easy chances or hitting the post but that wasn't the case in the game you quote. But I absolutely agree about the attitude, which we have not seen since. Personally I'm convinced that a large part of it is down to players being in their comfort zone, especially if they know they are likely to be picked regardless.

[chinapig]

Our squad is not that good on paper... or grass.

I didn't it was good but that it is better on paper than the play off team. Particularly in attack imo.

[CotswoldRed]

Every Championship season is littered with teams getting thrashed, then the next game the team they lost to loses to a team that were beaten a short while ago by the team that got thrashed in the first place.

Everyone can get beaten by anyone on the right day.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Our squad is not that good on paper... or grass.

Well it does effect concentration, motivation etc so no surprise there....

Think it's a bit simplistic to draw conclusions from two games. Norwich recently took just one point out of Watford and Swansea away where as we, this season took six !! What do you conclude from that?

[Jordan Tansley]

Every Championship season is littered with teams getting thrashed, then the next game the team they lost to loses to a team that were beaten a short while ago by the team that got thrashed in the first place.

Everyone can get beaten by anyone on the right day.

this is the point that seems to go unnoticed and without consideration.

I would say that the standard of football is pretty even in this division from about 4th down to about 17th. All of those teams can beat each other on any given day as the difference is so slight.

We musn't ignore the fact that Norwich have, unlike us in our "play off" season spent well on absolute quality, Surman and the likes were what we needed, Not Trundle and Byfield (good player as he was)and were playing in a massive derby, So comparing our result with theirs isn't entirely fair?

[Luke_Ciderhead]

We couldn't score at home against a 10-man Ipswich. Norwich put 5 past them away. They could afford to have the likes of Lansbury and Pacheco on the bench. Perhaps an indication of just how far behind the best teams in this league we are? Seems odd to me that despite having a much better squad on paper we have slipped such a long way down the pecking order compared to the play off final team. Keith is going to have to do a hell of a job, and on a shoestring, to get anywhere near Norwich's standard it seems to me.

You can use statistics like that to create any argument though.

For example, we put four past Preston at Deepdale but league leaders QPR failed to win there. Does that go any way to proving that we are able to compete at their level? Of course not.

Middlesbrough and Coventry won at Ashton Gate whereas Cardiff and Reading both lost here... Does that say anything about the overall quality of those teams? Nope.

[chinapig]

You can use statistics like that to create any argument though.

For example, we put four past Preston at Deepdale but league leaders QPR failed to win there. Does that go any way to proving that we are able to compete at their level? Of course not.

Middlesbrough and Coventry won at Ashton Gate whereas Cardiff and Reading both lost here... Does that say anything about the overall quality of those teams? Nope.

Fair comment, though I was comparing us and Norwich playing the same team within days of each other rather than picking random games. True enough about anybody beating anybody in this league but ultimately it is about consistency over a season. We have gone from being a consistently solid team finishing 4th to an up and down side in 15th, with, I still maintain, a better squad on paper. I also remain of the view that the gap between us and the best in the league is growing despite spending big and having, according to Colin, the 9th highest wage bill. Only part of that is down to the other teams being better than before imo and it emphasises the task Keith has. Won't stop many having inflated expectations for next season though.

[dezgimed]

I think you have to also say that Lambert is a class manager.

[Mr Popodopolous]

50% is down to confidence. We had that in our first season back in division 2. 4 seasons in and we need an exceptional manager to get anywhere near promotion.

True that, look at Norwich now- as you say riding the crest of a wave. Look at Blackpool up until just after Christmas.Also from the games I've been to, seems to me that there's a lot less spirit, sense of unity and all pulling together, not just on the pitch but around the club as a whole.

[chinapig]

I think you have to also say that Lambert is a class manager.

Agreed. He also has a great sense of strength and authority about him. Can't imagine players taking any liberties with him.

[chinapig]

True that, look at Norwich now- as you say riding the crest of a wave. Look at Blackpool up until just after Christmas.Also from the games I've been to, seems to me that there's a lot less spirit, sense of unity and all pulling together, not just on the pitch but around the club as a whole.

Think you have hit the nail on the head. The club seems jaded and treading water. Colin may well give the non-playing side new drive having been so impressive over the stadium bid. The question for me is does Keith have the personality to bring that spirit back on the playing side?

[lifelong]

I think its fair to say we had a ridiculous amount of luck in that first season. I remember a 1-0 win at Sheffield Weds where we were battered the whole game! There were several occasions that season where we were obviously outclassed but still managed to get a result.

In addition to that, we were battered a couple of times that season Ipswich 6-0 and West Brom 4-1 away which we haven't been this season.

I would also wager that if both sides has a full strength team with fully fit teams - (James, McAllister, Caulker, Fontaine, Spence, JCR, Elliot, Cisse, Adomah, Maynard, Stead) vs (Basso, McAllister, Carey, Fontaine, Orr, McIndoe, Elliot, Johnson, Noble, Adebola, Trundle) and played each other 10x, the current team would beat that season's team more times in the 10 games. (That is entirely theoretical but I hope that makes sense!!)

I think what we don't have this season that we had that playoff season was that never say die attitude and belief that we could get the sometimes very fortunate results we got that season.

Overall, IMO this season's team is stronger. What we don't have is that rub of the green we had that season and also an absence of genuine belief that we can make comebacks.

Think that would be totally dependant on who was managing each side.

[Rob k]

I would be going to qpr and finding out who they are looking to offload for next season, Orr?? Derry?? Neither of those will play in the Premier League, both would offer some leadership and a bit of aggression to the team.

[Chappers]

Think you have hit the nail on the head. The club seems jaded and treading water. Colin may well give the non-playing side new drive having been so impressive over the stadium bid. The question for me is does Keith have the personality to bring that spirit back on the playing side?

Every club is looking to 'move forward' each season, but simple mathematics says that only an average of 50% will move forward. We are a relatively small Championship Club, and in reality, have only been competitive by spending £10 million per year beyond income. At Championship level, clubs like City will have good years, take a step back and re-group, then move forward again. Spending money you don't have indefinitely might gain short term success, but is not sustainable. Keith's main job over the next year is to cut the losses whilst keeping us in the Championship, and play-off/ promotion bid should be seen as a bonus.

[GrahamC]

Every club is looking to 'move forward' each season, but simple mathematics says that only an average of 50% will move forward. We are a relatively small Championship Club, and in reality, have only been competitive by spending £10 million per year beyond income. At Championship level, clubs like City will have good years, take a step back and re-group, then move forward again. Spending money you don't have indefinitely might gain short term success, but is not sustainable. Keith's main job over the next year is to cut the losses whilst keeping us in the Championship, and play-off/ promotion bid should be seen as a bonus.

I accept your general points but the only loss of that sum we have recorded was last year and that included sums for the stadium, the loans of Saborio, Sno and the various disasters we brought in on loan in the latter part of the season (Iwelumo apart). Even with the signings of Pitman and Stead I'd doubt this year's expenditure has been so great.

It isn't impossible to cost cut and also to make progress, Watford have done so this year and the attraction of appointing Millen was that he knew the players and didn't need to play catch up.

However as you rightly state, it is hard, everyone else is looking to do the same and a division that probably won't include Scunny or Preston but will include Brighton and Southampton has two more sides at least our equal and probably bigger than us.

Clever loan signings and a Bosman or two will probably be our summer strengthening, let's hope KM keeps up his decent record with acquisitions...

[chinapig]

Every club is looking to 'move forward' each season, but simple mathematics says that only an average of 50% will move forward. We are a relatively small Championship Club, and in reality, have only been competitive by spending £10 million per year beyond income. At Championship level, clubs like City will have good years, take a step back and re-group, then move forward again. Spending money you don't have indefinitely might gain short term success, but is not sustainable. Keith's main job over the next year is to cut the losses whilst keeping us in the Championship, and play-off/ promotion bid should be seen as a bonus.

Not sure if you were responding to me as I have not referred to spending money nor am I one of those who seems to think promotion is practically a given. The strategy the club has set out is the right one imo so I agree with you. My point was about restoring the attitude and spirit and whether Keith has the personality to do that. An open question that only time will answer.

[chinapig]

I accept your general points but the only loss of that sum we have recorded was last year and that included sums for the stadium, the loans of Saborio, Sno and the various disasters we brought in on loan in the latter part of the season (Iwelumo apart). Even with the signings of Pitman and Stead I'd doubt this year's expenditure has been so great.

It isn't impossible to cost cut and also to make progress, Watford have done so this year and the attraction of appointing Millen was that he knew the players and didn't need to play catch up.

However as you rightly state, it is hard, everyone else is looking to do the same and a division that probably won't include Scunny or Preston but will include Brighton and Southampton has two more sides at least our equal and probably bigger than us.

Clever loan signings and a Bosman or two will probably be our summer strengthening, let's hope KM keeps up his decent record with acquisitions...

True and Reading are an even better example and the club Colin sees as our benchmark. Not about spending more but spending smarter. There are signs that Keith can do that so the summer window will be interesting in that respect (though no doubt the forum will be full as usual with unrealistic not to say fantasy signing suggestions ).

[Chappers]

Interesting comparison with reading, they also appointed a low profile manager, and it doesn't seem to have done them any harm. In some ways, we are stil playing catch up in terms of value signings and youth development, and that might be the problem with our new, prudent policy in the short term. In terms of attitude, everything I have seen suggests that is good, and he does seem able to get the best out of some pretty average players.