chinapig Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 Very true. Cisse seems more composed in possession I think. As for the op, disappointing way to end the season- even more so when you consider how many above us have faltered. The thing is, when we beat Doncaster we were a mere 4 points off Millwall. Now they themselves are 2 points off the playoffs, perhaps could have been us in the shakeup had we kept some momentum going. Indeed and Keith said he would not let that momentum drop once we were safe. The players seem not to have paid attention. Whatever managers say and do players will always decide for themselves whether they can be assed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 25, 2011 Report Share Posted April 25, 2011 Indeed and Keith said he would not let that momentum drop once we were safe. The players seem not to have paid attention. Whatever managers say and do players will always decide for themselves whether they can be assed. True enough...They should be professional enough to keep on going- think about it, they get paid some way above the average wage, doing a job that many would like to do- playing most schoolkids favourite game. It should be a privilege to be in their position but sadly judging by how things have tailed off this doesn't seem to be the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Indeed and Keith said he would not let that momentum drop once we were safe. The players seem not to have paid attention. Whatever managers say and do players will always decide for themselves whether they can be assed. thats called poor management Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 thats called poor management While I think it was a mistake for Keith to effectively guarantee he would not let the players slack off given that you can never be sure from one game to another whether they will put in a full shift, on this occasion I think the responsibility rests with the players. You can't motivate somebody who doesn't want to be motivated but of course players invariably get off scot free. There have been occasions this season when Keith has rightly criticised their attitude (Preston and Sheff Wed at home and Leeds and Hull away spring to mind) so it's not a problem he is unaware of. Nevertheless I'm not sure he yet has the authority with the players to make a guarantee like that stick. That kind of attitude among players is common in the game these days though and by no means exclusive to us, one reason why I have fallen out of love with the game in general and why I will not be buying a ST. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 While I think it was a mistake for Keith to effectively guarantee he would not let the players slack off given that you can never be sure from one game to another whether they will put in a full shift, on this occasion I think the responsibility rests with the players. You can't motivate somebody who doesn't want to be motivated but of course players invariably get off scot free. There have been occasions this season when Keith has rightly criticised their attitude (Preston and Sheff Wed at home and Leeds and Hull away spring to mind) so it's not a problem he is unaware of. Nevertheless I'm not sure he yet has the authority with the players to make a guarantee like that stick. That kind of attitude among players is common in the game these days though and by no means exclusive to us, one reason why I have fallen out of love with the game in general and why I will not be buying a ST. You can however drop a player that refuses to be motavated but this has not happened, Ashton Gate is like a old boys club at the moment and thats why its gone the way it has, A big shake up from top to bottom is needed (team not boardroom) Carey shouldn't be offered a new contract for starters great servent but is well past his best now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spud55 Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Indeed and Keith said he would not let that momentum drop once we were safe. The players seem not to have paid attention. Whatever managers say and do players will always decide for themselves whether they can be assed. Yes but they are not conciously going out ad deciding that they can't be bothered are they? Anyone in sport will tell you that when it doesn't matter you just don't quite have that edge that you do when it really matters, and when playing teams who are desperately trying to survive or pushing hard for the playoffs it's always going to be difficult as it simply can't matter as much as it does to the other side. Sometimes you get teams with nothing to play for who play fantastically because there is nothing on it and they express themselves and put in a stormer. However most of the times teams with nothing to play for are just a bit of a damp squib. I don't understand why anyone is surprised at what has happened to our form since we found ourselves with nothing to play for. We have had a bollocks season and have got by largely by working hard and grinding out some results from poor performances, now that extra edge has gone the performances have dropped, it's nothing to do with being unprofessional it's just when the pressure is off people take it easy. It's the same for the rest of us, at work or school, when the pressure is off and you are given a very short space of time to do something you will work your bollocks off to get it done, if your boss/teacher gives you a piece of work to do that is unimportant and can be done whenever you wont put the same level of effort in, you wont actually sit there and think "ooh i'm not going to bother with this" but you will not give it that extra effort to make it the best it can be like you would under pressure, it's a trait of most people (especially blokes). As for next season i'm with Nibor I think a small but quality squad is the way forward, supplemented by a couple of loan signings, this is what i'd be looking at. Keepers - James and Gerkin. Backup - Carey. Defenders - Fonts, Stewart, Nyatanga, Edwards, Ribs. New LB + CB Midfield - Albert, Cisse, Woolford, Johnson, Marv. New Cm and Campbell-rice. Strikers - Pittman, Maynard, Stead, cover for stead, Keogh would do. I think that gives you a solid first 11 and decent cover, add to that a loan signing or two and it's a small but decent squad. I'd keep LJ as he can create and if the new Cm gets injured or it's just not working it's useful to have another option on the bench, same goes for Marv, i'd be looking to replace both at the end of next season with some young tallent either from our academy or from the lower leagues and see how they do. I think that squad would be a good base point to start from to really build a squad capable of moving forward, it provides cover for all positions and if you year on year replace some of the cover with prospects and gradually move them up into the first XI you should see a steady improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Yes but they are not conciously going out ad deciding that they can't be bothered are they? Anyone in sport will tell you that when it doesn't matter you just don't quite have that edge that you do when it really matters, and when playing teams who are desperately trying to survive or pushing hard for the playoffs it's always going to be difficult as it simply can't matter as much as it does to the other side. Sometimes you get teams with nothing to play for who play fantastically because there is nothing on it and they express themselves and put in a stormer. However most of the times teams with nothing to play for are just a bit of a damp squib. I don't understand why anyone is surprised at what has happened to our form since we found ourselves with nothing to play for. We have had a bollocks season and have got by largely by working hard and grinding out some results from poor performances, now that extra edge has gone the performances have dropped, it's nothing to do with being unprofessional it's just when the pressure is off people take it easy. It's the same for the rest of us, at work or school, when the pressure is off and you are given a very short space of time to do something you will work your bollocks off to get it done, if your boss/teacher gives you a piece of work to do that is unimportant and can be done whenever you wont put the same level of effort in, you wont actually sit there and think "ooh i'm not going to bother with this" but you will not give it that extra effort to make it the best it can be like you would under pressure, it's a trait of most people (especially blokes). I suspect your analysis is right in so far as the end of the season goes (though I suspect there are indeed a minority at any club who are just lazy, as in any walk of life, e.g. the sort with lots of talent who cannot be assed to get fit). Mind you it doesn't take much intelligence for a player to realise this is the case and try not to let it happen. So no I'm not surprised, which is why I think Keith was mistaken to make the commitment he did. Different though for the kind of games I referred to where Keith criticised their attitude. I remember him saying after the Preston game that they thought they'd cracked it after a good run and that they thought they only had to turn up to win against Sheff Wed. That is where we can improve and does involve the players taking responsibility, something modern players don't like doing it seems to me. I would think the captain has an important role there too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
22A Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 like I said, the attitude and the mentality of the players and management is wrong! Until we get this right we will never win anything! For example today we went 2-0 down and got it back to 2-2. After that we sat back which is the wrong attitude and paid for it! if it was reading, cardiff, forest in that situation they would of gone on the attack and try to win the game! The three teams you mentioned all have promotion to play for whereas City have nothing to play for other than whether to finish 14th or 16th. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 I don't understand why anyone is surprised at what has happened to our form since we found ourselves with nothing to play for. We have had a bollocks season and have got by largely by working hard and grinding out some results from poor performances, now that extra edge has gone the performances have dropped, it's nothing to do with being unprofessional it's just when the pressure is off people take it easy. It's the same for the rest of us, at work or school, when the pressure is off and you are given a very short space of time to do something you will work your bollocks off to get it done, if your boss/teacher gives you a piece of work to do that is unimportant and can be done whenever you wont put the same level of effort in, you wont actually sit there and think "ooh i'm not going to bother with this" but you will not give it that extra effort to make it the best it can be like you would under pressure, it's a trait of most people (especially blokes). I understand all this, but actually after safety was secured there was something to play for- we were 7 points off Forest with 7 games to go, teams above us were dropping pts vs each other and even more surprisingly vs those lower down. It was only a slim chance but there was one nevertheless. With this in mind, they should surely have taken the approach of the previous 7 games- which yielded 18 pts- into the final 7 I think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 You don't carry momentum across a close season anyway, from that point of view it's irrelevant. so you dont think our playoff season or Norwich doing so well this season has anything to do with the momentum of being promoted and carrying it on to the following season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 so you dont think our playoff season or Norwich doing so well this season has anything to do with the momentum of being promoted and carrying it on to the following season? No, I don't. Six weeks of holiday kills any mental or emotional frame of mind and you have to start all over again. You pick out two examples, there are vastly more of a new season bearing no relation to how the old one finished. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 No, I don't. Six weeks of holiday kills any mental or emotional frame of mind and you have to start all over again. You pick out two examples, there are vastly more of a new season bearing no relation to how the old one finished. Norwich Leeds and Millwall all promoted last season. All doing well this. there are plenty of examples. I'm not saying it allways does but there are examples when it clearly has an affect. Your saying it never does which I dont agree with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Economou Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 The three teams you mentioned all have promotion to play for whereas City have nothing to play for other than whether to finish 14th or 16th. I've got 10 quid on them finishing above Ipswich, I would hope they do think they have something to play for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 No, I don't. Six weeks of holiday kills any mental or emotional frame of mind and you have to start all over again. You pick out two examples, there are vastly more of a new season bearing no relation to how the old one finished. Not sure about that, look at our friends up the road Swindon- last year playoff final, now under Wilson and latterly Hart headed for League Two next year. There can certainly be some scope for momentum IMO- if a) something tangible has been achieved or b there has been a great collapse/loss at the last hurdle. Leicester is another- going back a few years now but I vaguely recall them finishing terribly one year then getting relegated from the PL. It can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Norwich Leeds and Millwall all promoted last season. All doing well this. there are plenty of examples. I'm not saying it allways does but there are examples when it clearly has an affect. Your saying it never does which I dont agree with. How does it clearly have an effect? What makes you attribute those good seasons to "momentum" as opposed to just having good players or a good manager? Momentum is not the cause, it's the result. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red 'un' Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 I understand all this, but actually after safety was secured there was something to play for- we were 7 points off Forest with 7 games to go, teams above us were dropping pts vs each other and even more surprisingly vs those lower down. It was only a slim chance but there was one nevertheless. With this in mind, they should surely have taken the approach of the previous 7 games- which yielded 18 pts- into the final 7 I think. problem was jamsie talked about it (playoffs) and as we all know, any time we come out with our intentions we go and do the opposite Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 How does it clearly have an effect? What makes you attribute those good seasons to "momentum" as opposed to just having good players or a good manager? Momentum is not the cause, it's the result. because teams often talk about it as do managers. They have experience and see the benefits of momentum from one season to another. its an opinion. its different from yours. try not to take it so personally. momentum is a cause. There I win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 because teams often talk about it as do managers. They have experience and see the benefits of momentum from one season to another. its an opinion. its different from yours. try not to take it so personally. momentum is a cause. There I win. It's quite amusing that you accuse me of taking something personally in the same post as you start resorting to the usual childish stuff. Try debating the opinion, it's what the forum's meant to be for. The only people I've heard talk about momentum from one season into the next are the weaker pundits, managers usually stress how important it is to get the pre-season right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 It's quite amusing that you accuse me of taking something personally in the same post as you start resorting to the usual childish stuff. Try debating the opinion, it's what the forum's meant to be for. The only people I've heard talk about momentum from one season into the next are the weaker pundits, managers usually stress how important it is to get the pre-season right. glad your amused. wouldnt want you getting all cross nibsy. I know you do when someone dares challenge you so its nice to think your able to smile when you might be wrong. its hard to debate with someone who never budges and tries to call other peoples opinions bunk by just making out his own opinion is a fact. if thats the only people you;ve heard talk about momentum you cant do much listening. preseason is important too. It doesnt have to be one or the other. Is Millen a weak pundit? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 glad your amused. wouldnt want you getting all cross nibsy. I know you do when someone dares challenge you so its nice to think your able to smile when you might be wrong. its hard to debate with someone who never budges and tries to call other peoples opinions bunk by just making out his own opinion is a fact. if thats the only people you;ve heard talk about momentum you cant do much listening. preseason is important too. It doesnt have to be one or the other. Is Millen a weak pundit? Ah yes, clearly me who's taking things personally. If it's that important to you to win, then you win. You are a winner. I hope that improves your sense of self worth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SC_Red Posted April 26, 2011 Report Share Posted April 26, 2011 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Popodopolous Posted April 28, 2011 Report Share Posted April 28, 2011 problem was jamsie talked about it (playoffs) and as we all know, any time we come out with our intentions we go and do the opposite That really did cross my mind, I thought he'd jinxed it there and then tbh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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