Right To Strike?

[Mr Popodopolous]

I can't help but notice that for the umpteenth time in the last year, there have been rumblings about the Strike laws in this country. Aside from Russia and Belarus- not a model democracy in either case, we have the strictest strike laws in Europe. What do we all make of these latest threats? Especially when combined with the NHS 'restructuring' and the heavy policing of protests, I do wonder about the coalition.Course any party who ***** up the NHS will be voted out posthaste I'd imagine.

[bringbacktherobin]

I guess its as most people seem to have the "you have a job, why are you moaning" mindset, which i feel is completely wrong.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I can't help but notice that for the umpteenth time in the last year, there have been rumblings about the Strike laws in this country. Aside from Russia and Belarus- not a model democracy in either case, we have the strictest strike laws in Europe. What do we all make of these latest threats? Especially when combined with the NHS 'restructuring' and the heavy policing of protests, I do wonder about the coalition.Course any party who ***** up the NHS will be voted out posthaste I'd imagine.

Unfortunately anybody who lived through 1978/79's winter of discontent will understand why these union/employment laws were implemented and the only people who were against these laws at the time were the unions themselves, the rest of the country had had more than enough by then.

and it is also a fact that during New Labours 13 years in charge they never repealed one union/employment law the Tories brought in and considering the amount of money the unions provide for New Labour that is astonishing, but really not surprising. Also it was also evident that after 10 years of New Labour rule the unions really started to try it on by becoming more militant.

Basically the unions only have themselves to blame.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Unfortunately anybody who lived through 1978/79's winter of discontent will understand why these union/employment laws were implemented and the only people who were against these laws at the time were the unions themselves, the rest of the country had had more than enough by then.

and it is also a fact that during New Labours 13 years in charge they never repealed one union/employment law the Tories brought in and considering the amount of money the unions provide for New Labour that is astonishing, but really not surprising. Also it was also evident that after 10 years of New Labour rule the unions really started to try it on by becoming more militant.

Basically the unions only have themselves to blame.

Wasn't around then but yeah they took the piss somewhat and I expect it was as you suggestby the end of that decade. New Labour not repealing any of those laws was like you say not a huge surprise.

Themselves to blame? Perhaps but still let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We already have the most restrictive strike laws in Europe, what could be more restrictive? Personally I see the right to strike as inviolable, one of the only ways employees can hit back at a bad employer too. Part of the reason we now have safe Working conditions I'd suggest is because people fought for them in the past. Including Unions.

[Riaz]

I guess its as most people seem to have the "you have a job, why are you moaning" mindset, which i feel is completely wrong.

I think it's completely right

[Dollymarie]

I cant see myself going on strike, there have been rumblings via email at work, but to be honest im just bloody grateful to have a job (now guaranteed until December at least) Yes a payrise would be nice, but i'd rather have no payrise and keep my job.

That said, theres a part of me that wants to go on strike now Vince Cable is trying to order us not to. Just to piss him off.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I think it's completely right

The 'job, why moaning' mindset?

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Wasn't around then but yeah they took the piss somewhat and I expect it was as you suggestby the end of that decade. New Labour not repealing any of those laws was like you say not a huge surprise.

Themselves to blame? Perhaps but still let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We already have the most restrictive strike laws in Europe, what could be more restrictive? Personally I see the right to strike as inviolable, one of the only ways employees can hit back at a bad employer too. Part of the reason we now have safe Working conditions I'd suggest is because people fought for them in the past. Including Unions.

Indeed but unfortunately unions traditionally will try to take the piss when Labour are in power expecting that Labour will swallow it because of the financial support they give and when the Tories are in power they try to bring the government down, either way it's unacceptable.

[fka dagest]

Wasn't around then but yeah they took the piss somewhat and I expect it was as you suggestby the end of that decade. New Labour not repealing any of those laws was like you say not a huge surprise.

Themselves to blame? Perhaps but still let's not throw the baby out with the bathwater. We already have the most restrictive strike laws in Europe, what could be more restrictive? Personally I see the right to strike as inviolable, one of the only ways employees can hit back at a bad employer too. Part of the reason we now have safe Working conditions I'd suggest is because people fought for them in the past. Including Unions.

Quite right Mr Pop. The unions are far too frequently portrayed as the bad guys simply because they have the nerve to want to have a say in the terms and conditions of their members - how selfish! Perhaps we should all just bow down to the CBI/buisness leaders collective and let them choose when and where we work and for how much.

It was union action which won most of the terms and conditions which workers enjoy today and unions, whatever you think about them provide a useful counterbalance in society. Without them we'd be under a business dictatorship.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Quite right Mr Pop. The unions are far too frequently portrayed as the bad guys simply because they have the nerve to want to have a say in the terms and conditions of their members - how selfish! Perhaps we should all just bow down to the CBI/buisness leaders collective and let them choose when and where we work and for how much.

It was union action which won most of the terms and conditions which workers enjoy today and unions, whatever you think about them provide a useful counterbalance in society. Without them we'd be under a business dictatorship.

Quite right Mr Dag, but unfortunately power corrupts and that is what occurred leading up to and during the winter of discontent. it was a miserable time to live through and little or nothing to do with workers rights it was totally political and ultimately was the cause of the of the laws that are now so restrictive to unions.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Quite right Mr Pop. The unions are far too frequently portrayed as the bad guys simply because they have the nerve to want to have a say in the terms and conditions of their members - how selfish! Perhaps we should all just bow down to the CBI/buisness leaders collective and let them choose when and where we work and for how much.

It was union action which won most of the terms and conditions which workers enjoy today and unions, whatever you think about them provide a useful counterbalance in society. Without them we'd be under a business dictatorship.

Agree with a lot of this fka. As I say they can take the piss and have taken the piss in the past, but baby and bathwater. To put another way on a wider note, freedoms and rights are often hard won but can be very easily lost.May sound melodramatic, hell may sound like paranoia and scaremongering of the worst kind but for some pretty unknown reason I have a bad gut feeling about the coalition, just little hints, little chinks of light. Dunno why but I have a pretty suspicous view...

[Fiale]

Unions in this country bleed the taxpayers dry (most Union members being in the public sector). Whenever they negotiate better conditions for employees, more costs to taxpayers, better holidays and bonuses, more costs to taxpayers.

In Germany unions get collective deals on productivity, your workers help us generate X% profit and you get a share, this means that if a Union worker is slacking, a sickee junkie, just out right lazy then the union members and unions themselves kick them out. So union members get better deals, the employer gets a better deal, and the slackers get removed from the system so they cannot take a ride on other employees backs.

Here the unions protect these type of people.

If you want to strike then do-so, personally I would never promote someone who goes on strike, or give them any work privileges, I would consider them persona non grata.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Unions in this country bleed the taxpayers dry (most Union members being in the public sector). Whenever they negotiate better conditions for employees, more costs to taxpayers, better holidays and bonuses, more costs to taxpayers.

In Germany unions get collective deals on productivity, your workers help us generate X% profit and you get a share, this means that if a Union worker is slacking, a sickee junkie, just out right lazy then the union members and unions themselves kick them out. So union members get better deals, the employer gets a better deal, and the slackers get removed from the system so they cannot take a ride on other employees backs.

Here the unions protect these type of people.

If you want to strike then do-so, personally I would never promote someone who goes on strike, or give them any work privileges, I would consider them persona non grata.

There's a world of difference between slacking or striking for no real reason i.e. taking the piss on one hand and striking due to actions of an unscrupulous employer on the other hand. As for your OP, what would you rather they did? Sat there and accepted any old crap like a good sheeple/ set of sheeple?

Look back at working conditions and rights 100 years hence. Less than that actually but especially a century ago and beyond. As I said before, Unions undoubtedly I think played a role in improving these, people have to fight for thIs. Your Germany point is an eyeopener though, from that and my other basic understanding of Germany, I'd guess that they have somewhat better Industrial Relations than here.

Finally, I'd also add that if people don't hold the line on this basic right- if they want it that is- then there is a chance it will be lost. No idea about anyone else, but I see the right to strike as inviolable democratic right tbh.

[ralphindevon]

I agree Mr P. some people have forgotten how hard our forefathers had to fight for better working rights.

Rights which even in 2011 still aren't afforded to some in this world.

However, after living here in France for 8 years I've had enough of the bl***y unions to last a life time. They really do take the p*** here.

It's a fine line and I think those union leaders who take the mickey are should be ashamed of themselves, they aren't doing any favours for their members, the companies they work for or the country itself.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Quite right Mr Dag, but unfortunately power corrupts and that is what occurred leading up to and during the winter of discontent. it was a miserable time to live through and little or nothing to do with workers rights it was totally political and ultimately was the cause of the of the laws that are now so restrictive to unions.

Missed this post. Yeah they took the piss in the late 70, it's well documented. That may well have been the cause and quite agree that power corrupts. If pretty much a free hand is given to bosses then who is to say power wouldn't corrupt in that regard too? Actually, working conditions and basic rights for employees less than a century ago pretty much prove that point to be very likely I suspect.

I suppose another way of putting it- be careful what you (in the generalised sense) wish for?

[fka dagest]

Unions in this country bleed the taxpayers dry (most Union members being in the public sector). Whenever they negotiate better conditions for employees, more costs to taxpayers, better holidays and bonuses, more costs to taxpayers.

In Germany unions get collective deals on productivity, your workers help us generate X% profit and you get a share, this means that if a Union worker is slacking, a sickee junkie, just out right lazy then the union members and unions themselves kick them out. So union members get better deals, the employer gets a better deal, and the slackers get removed from the system so they cannot take a ride on other employees backs.

Here the unions protect these type of people.

If you want to strike then do-so, personally I would never promote someone who goes on strike, or give them any work privileges, I would consider them persona non grata.

Unions bleed tax payers dry? Really? Do you think public sector workers should be treated as slaves just to alleviate the burden on the tax payer? It's worth remembering that most public sector workers are also tax payers. I'm surprised with the govt spending x amount of money on all sorts for things that it's public sector workers who are accused of bleeding them dry.

If the German system was used for revenue collection for example, then public sector staff would be rewarded for bringing in extra tax. No doubt that would be wrong too.

[Fiale]

Unions bleed tax payers dry? Really? Do you think public sector workers should be treated as slaves

Talk about extreme - I must have forgotten how we can either be generously paid or slaves, no middle ground. Comments like that give discussion a bad name, where is anyone suggesting people are to become slaves ?

just to alleviate the burden on the tax payer? It's worth remembering that most public sector workers are also tax payers.

You give me all of your wages, I give you a percentage back and I get to claim I subsidize your life ? Every penny that public workers get paid is tax on other people/activities, giving a fraction back does not make them tax payers, it still makes them net tax takers.

I'm surprised with the govt spending x amount of money on all sorts for things that it's public sector workers who are accused of bleeding them dry.

Staff costs are most often the biggest costs to a organisation, whether private or public. That is why staff are often the first cut back made by organisations.

If the German system was used for revenue collection for example, then public sector staff would be rewarded for bringing in extra tax. No doubt that would be wrong too.

They do not use it in the public sector as it does not work, taking more money from peoples wage packets and then giving it back to yourself as a bonus does not work. Public sector does not create wealth, it can only siphon off wealth and re allocate it and hope to provide services needed by people.

[fka dagest]

Talk about extreme - I must have forgotten how we can either be generously paid or slaves, no middle ground. Comments like that give discussion a bad name, where is anyone suggesting people are to become slaves ?

You give me all of your wages, I give you a percentage back and I get to claim I subsidize your life ? Every penny that public workers get paid is tax on other people/activities, giving a fraction back does not make them tax payers, it still makes them net tax takers.

Staff costs are most often the biggest costs to a organisation, whether private or public. That is why staff are often the first cut back made by organisations.

They do not use it in the public sector as it does not work, taking more money from peoples wage packets and then giving it back to yourself as a bonus does not work. Public sector does not create wealth, it can only siphon off wealth and re allocate it and hope to provide services needed by people.

Ok, so everyone one receiving pay from the govt is a tax taker, which included the fire service, army, NHS, town planners etc. Actually all the people who allow the state to be a viable entity, not forgetting of course that we all do pay back into the pot (being a tax payer). I assume you don't like the public sector, but how do you feel the country would fare without the public sector? You also talk about a 'middle ground' wage. Where exactly would that be for you considering you view public sector workers as bleeding the tax payer dry? I'm not inclined to believe you'd be overly generous. The vast majority of workers in my department receive a paltry to moderate wage. The lowest grade earn only about £15000, the one above that earns only up to £20000. Is that too much? You evidently don't like unions and historically unions have won the workers the rights they have. Without unions, workers would be left in a position close to slavery, much like the social state of the early 1800s where children worked in mines, women gave birth on the shop-floor and men queued in the morning to find out if they'd have a job for the day.

I'm well aware that the German system wouldn't work in the UK public sector, which only leaves me puzzled why you mention it.

I assume you're a devotee of the private sector with it's commitment to personal greed over public service. No doubt you never complain about your gas bill or rail fare.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I only ever joined a union once, because I had too it was a temporary job in the print industry and the print industry notoriously operated a 'closed shop' union policy.

Firstly I objected to having to join a union to get the job and secondly I objected more to a proportion of my union subscription being given to the Labour party. Thankfully at least these two undemocratic practices were outlawed when the present union/employment laws were brought in.

[kevinmabbuttshair]

I think it's completely right

Maybe, Riaz, that's because you haven't spent 20 years paying into a final salary pension and then had those benefits ripped away from you even though the particular company is making money hand over fist. Then the CEO of that particular company changes the rules of the bonus scheme so he can dump his multi million pound bonus in to that pension scheme to top it up but no one below the very senior management is permitted to do this. Fair? I don't effing think so! What our your options? Bend over and take it like some pussy or stand up for your rights to have the comfortable retirement you spend the whole of your working life saving for so the state doesn't have to look after and thereby easy the tax burden on you in the future?

No, I'm just luck to have a job! Bollox to that

[Mr Mosquito]

and it is also a fact that during New Labours 13 years in charge they never repealed one union/employment law the Tories brought in and considering the amount of money the unions provide for New Labour that is astonishing,

Basically the unions only have themselves to blame.

I like the idea of Union membership but I packed in my Union membership due to my Union giving the New Labour Party financial backing - they had no bloody right to take money from my Union subs to finance the anti working man political party that is New Labour. New Labour has been highjacked by EU loving public school educated lawyer Toffs - like Tony Blair - and they're now no different to the Tories.

[CiderHider]

I like striking. I don't like strikers using striking to their own personal ends.

striking is out of dater and should be banned.

[Mr Popodopolous]

I like striking. I don't like strikers using striking to their own personal ends.

striking is out of dater and should be banned.

Well, first bit yes people striking for own ends can be a problem but expansion would be interesting?

Second- so what can be done as last resort if an employer decided to act like, for want of a better phrase well like a little shit? Intrigued to hear your alternative but to ban strikes- last time we had that state of affairs was a long time ago and working conditions were trying to say the least. No offence, but are you an employer? Would at least offer some kind of obvious rationale for that last point...

To conclude, as I said in a previous point- People should perhaps be careful of what they wish for...

[Riaz]

Maybe, Riaz, that's because you haven't spent 20 years paying into a final salary pension and then had those benefits ripped away from you even though the particular company is making money hand over fist. Then the CEO of that particular company changes the rules of the bonus scheme so he can dump his multi million pound bonus in to that pension scheme to top it up but no one below the very senior management is permitted to do this. Fair? I don't effing think so! What our your options? Bend over and take it like some pussy or stand up for your rights to have the comfortable retirement you spend the whole of your working life saving for so the state doesn't have to look after and thereby easy the tax burden on you in the future?

No, I'm just luck to have a job! Bollox to that

If a company is doing well, I support any strike action - It simply makes no sense for a company doing well to make cut-backs - especially from their hard-working employees.

But many a organisations are stuggling at the moment - and if those organisations are struggling, then I dont agree with strike action - we've all got to take our fair share of the bad times IMO

[Mr Mosquito]

Second- so what can be done as last resort if an employer decided to act like, for want of a better phrase well like a little shit?

If your employer is treating you like shit - then walk out and get another job. Walking out into a new job can cause chaos for your crappy employer if you get the timing right. OK, not many jobs around at the moment for many people but why lose money striking when you could walk out and get another job where you may be more appreciated by your new employer ??!!! Our various Governments have tightened up on striking so much that striking is now almost pointless.

[Mr Popodopolous]

If your employer is treating you like shit - then walk out and get another job. Walking out into a new job can cause chaos for your crappy employer if you get the timing right. OK, not many jobs around at the moment for many people but why lose money striking when you could walk out and get another job where you may be more appreciated by your new employer ??!!! Our various Governments have tightened up on striking so much that striking is now almost pointless.

Well, there's always that- but call me cynical but if we outright ban the right to strike that would IMO be a profound balance in the shift of power from employee to employer. If you are an employer- in that scenario- who is to say that liberties would not be taken? Not saying all employers are ***** but in this modern era of globalisation and ultra competitiveness at home and overseas, I would suggest that people are careful before rushing to sign away what some may regard as a fundamental and potentailly right. In the good times though, there is always that option of course.I'm going to sound borderline Communist now, but in very few cases did those who ran the show suddenly turn around and say 'I know, let's remove some of our wealth and just create a Welfare State for no apparent reason.' Basic rights have to be fought for, you can still see it today in the Middle East and other bits of the world in which there is serious oppression.The past working conditions in UK when strikes were not permitted seem to be something that some criticis more than others, ignore.

One more point- the Givernment in France don't take such liberties. The French seem to strike, and usually in in a major way when they do so! Not sure why really but Sarkozy has not been able to bulldoze though all his reforms by any means yet.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Well, there's always that- but call me cynical but if we outright ban the right to strike that would IMO be a profound balance in the shift of power from employee to employer. If you are an employer- in that scenario- who is to say that liberties would not be taken? Not saying all employers are ***** but in this modern era of globalisation and ultra competitiveness at home and overseas, I would suggest that people are careful before rushing to sign away what some may regard as a fundamental and potentailly right. In the good times though, there is always that option of course.I'm going to sound borderline Communist now, but in very few cases did those who ran the show suddenly turn around and say 'I know, let's remove some of our wealth and just create a Welfare State for no apparent reason.' Basic rights have to be fought for, you can still see it today in the Middle East and other bits of the world in which there is serious oppression.The past working conditions in UK when strikes were not permitted seem to be something that some criticis more than others, ignore.

One more point- the Givernment in France don't take such liberties. The French seem to strike, and usually in in a major way when they do so! Not sure why really but Sarkozy has not been able to bulldoze though all his reforms by any means yet.

it's simple he's over 30 years too late, when Sarkozi was elected I told my French neighbour he had no chance of bringing the unions into line, they are far too powerful and practices are far too entrenched, France should have done it the same time as the UK did.

[Barrs Court Red]

Unions like the RMT and PCS really don't help matters. I would say the perception of unions is probably at an all time low because of their actions.

[Mr Mosquito]

it's simple he's over 30 years too late, when Sarkozi was elected I told my French neighbour he had no chance of bringing the unions into line, they are far too powerful and practices are far too entrenched, France should have done it the same time as the UK did.

OK, there's talk of Union action and strikes due to the cut backs in public spending and the subsequent job losses. What I fail to understand about the Labour, Liberal and Conservative party European Unionists is that they say there needs to be savage cuts to public services in the United Kingdom but at the same time they're quite willing to pay £billions of our taxes to the corrupt and totally unecessary extra tier of Government that the European Union represents. No way will I join any Union that gives takings from Union subscriptions to the Labour party that totally backs our EU membership. I'd quite like to be in a Union that actually represents its membership but - alas - those days are over.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

OK, there's talk of Union action and strikes due to the cut backs in public spending and the subsequent job losses. What I fail to understand about the Labour, Liberal and Conservative party European Unionists is that they say there needs to be savage cuts to public services in the United Kingdom but at the same time they're quite willing to pay £billions of our taxes to the corrupt and totally unecessary extra tier of Government that the European Union represents. No way will I join any Union that gives takings from Union subscriptions to the Labour party that totally backs our EU membership. I'd quite like to be in a Union that actually represents its membership but - alas - those days are over.

The difference is in France the EU is made to work in favour of the French people, the common agriculture policy is testimony to that. in the UK we work for the EU and play by the rules of the EU, unfortunately that's the British way.