Redcliffe 78 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 On the money Bill. Numerous occasions where Carey was visibly talking Albert through games at the beginning of the season when he was still learning the pace of the championship. Albert looked like he had given up or was thoroughly pissed off when he got kicked all over the park on a couple of occasions and Carey was the man to come put his hand on his shoulder and help him regain his "game face" Not to mention Carey was solid in our first good run of the season after the Cardiff game, and things looked a lot more solid with him in the side all season until the signing of Spence. Unless we bring in a new right back then he will be in the starting eleven next season. Ribeiro's injury list will no doubt continue and even when he is fit there are doubts over his positional sense which is so important at full back, Same problem exists for young Joe Edwards who despite an overall solid display against Hull showed glimpses of a player who isn't quite ready for championship football. Agree with both of you, not ball watching you both see what happens of the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 We will see won't we. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Only Bristol City fans could slag off a player who has played over 600 games for the club. He still has plenty to offer, his experience alone for example. People have forgotten already who helped Albert time and time again last season with words of encouragement down the right flank. When Alberts head dropped he was always the one helping and encouraging him on to better things. His Experience counts a he'll of a lot to our younger players and I bet they would be the first to say this. He gives his all everytime he puts on the shirt which is what I read on here time after time that other players don't do. He's still a decent player at this level and I'm sure he will prove that to his detractors this season. Oh dear!! I suppose we should never get rid of any players ever?!!! Keep all the gerkens macca's and carey's....... I'm unsure whether carey is past it and I don't mind that he has been given the benefit of the doubt. But I think that those that aren't happy with his one year deal have a point. With all the supposed cut backs. I cerrainly can't see anyone slagging him off?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Oh dear!! I suppose we should never get rid of any players ever?!!! Keep all the gerkens macca's and carey's....... I'm unsure whether carey is past it and I don't mind that he has been given the benefit of the doubt. But I think that those that aren't happy with his one year deal have a point. With all the supposed cut backs. I cerrainly can't see anyone slagging him off?! [/quote So Careys 600 games count for nothing, his experience to all the young players counts for nothing!!!. Funny how you adore James and are more than happy to let him keep younger keepers out, but it's different for Carey! Carey has shown great loyalty to our club( except a brief spell at Coventry) and I'm glad that we have shown loyalty to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 So Careys 600 games count for nothing, his experience to all the young players counts for nothing!!!. Funny how you adore James and are more than happy to let him keep younger keepers out, but it's different for Carey! Carey has shown great loyalty to our club( except a brief spell at Coventry) and I'm glad that we have shown loyalty to him. We shouldnt give him a contract just because he has played 600. Give him one if he still has the ability. His and David James playing careers will soon be over and those that feel that either player shouldn't have had a new contract have a point. I cant argue with anyone who feels that David James was blocking hendo's development and those that say Carey is past it - he has shown signs of being past it. As it is - I'm happy there both here, reckon David James should be no 1 and Carey should be given the chance to show he still has it. But anyone who says it was wrong to give either a contract are making a fair point!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ashton1 Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Sort of get where you are comming from but, Carey is not a gk that does need to run, or play for England less then a year ago, not the same thing at all. Carey has been great for us over the years, bit it pains me to say " he needs to step a side to allow the youth to advance" no one is slaging him off he is a topman ! ( and so not the RB we need) Sorry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 It's the manager and the coaching staff that decide to give out contracts. They see them every day in training and know a he'll of a lot more than people who watch these players for 90 mins every week or two. Pro footballers are just that, you don't get contracts through sentiment, you get them because your good enough to do a job for the team. I've got a lad whose at a clubs centre of excellence, I'm under no illusions that only about 1 in 100 kids in that COE will make it as a Pro, those that have, have to be f...in good. So when people say that so and so's crap etc etc,they should take a step back and realise that actually they must be good to have made it in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 Sort of get where you are comming from but, Carey is not a gk that does need to run, or play for England less then a year ago, not the same thing at all. Carey has been great for us over the years, bit it pains me to say " he needs to step a side to allow the youth to advance" no one is slaging him off he is a topman ! ( and so not the RB we need) Sorry He's not stopping anyone, its up to the younger players to prove and show the ability to take his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riaz Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 It's the manager and the coaching staff that decide to give out contracts. They see them every day in training and know a he'll of a lot more than people who watch these players for 90 mins every week or two. Pro footballers are just that, you don't get contracts through sentiment, you get them because your good enough to do a job for the team. I've got a lad whose at a clubs centre of excellence, I'm under no illusions that only about 1 in 100 kids in that COE will make it as a Pro, those that have have to be f...in good. So when people say that so and so's crap etc etc,they should take a step back and realise that actually they must be good to have made it in the first place. It goes without saying that these players are far far better than any of us. But that's irrelevant. We are comparing with other players at this level. We shouldn't keep a player cos he is better than your average man on the street!!! This is a forum and the point of it is to discuss good/bad players and teams... Amongst other things Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 I agree but I also disagree.... At times!! Time to watch tv now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 It's the manager and the coaching staff that decide to give out contracts. They see them every day in training and know a he'll of a lot more than people who watch these players for 90 mins every week or two. Pro footballers are just that, you don't get contracts through sentiment, you get them because your good enough to do a job for the team. I've got a lad whose at a clubs centre of excellence, I'm under no illusions that only about 1 in 100 kids in that COE will make it as a Pro, those that have, have to be f...in good. So when people say that so and so's crap etc etc,they should take a step back and realise that actually they must be good to have made it in the first place. Surely by that token every professional player must therefore be good simply because they made it when others didn't which is self evidently not the case. It may be that they are not very good but the ones that didn't make it are even worse. As to Carey, he certainly was very good but I find it hard to argue that he is as good as he once was; the years alone mean he is certainly not going to get better so why prolong the agony? It would be sad to see him lose dignity by carrying on past his sell by date, which is what I fear is happening. I also suspect Keith did not feel he was yet established enough to tell Carey it was over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted July 4, 2011 Report Share Posted July 4, 2011 He's not stopping anyone, its up to the younger players to prove and show the ability to take his place. Danny Wilson did not like playing the likes of Lita and Rosenior in his latter days as manager when they were clearly better than the experienced players he preferred. How do we know Keith doesn't feel the same? I fail to see how young players will show their ability if Carey is an automatic choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jordan Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Watching the training video on BCFC player it's nice to see Louis encouraging everyone after what looks to be a lot of running drills. He still is a great squad player to have, despite his age and will always put in 100% Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Danny Wilson did not like playing the likes of Lita and Rosenior in his latter days as manager when they were clearly better than the experienced players he preferred. How do we know Keith doesn't feel the same? I fail to see how young players will show their ability if Carey is an automatic choice. I don't see anyone saying he's an automatic choice? He will have to earn his place the same as everyone else, his experience and know how will help him though I'm sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Not even a league 1 right back in my opinion. Can't agree at all, been impressed with him and surprise when he's played there this season, QPR especially. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliftonCliff Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 I also suspect Keith did not feel he was yet established enough to tell Carey it was over. This may very well be so, but on thinking about it, it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily make retaining him such a bad decision, if you consider the wider picture. It's clearly implied in what you say that you think Carey is a power in the dressing room - and I would think you're probably right about that. It could also be seen as tending to imply that the manager might be wary of getting rid of him, because Carey could be minded to use his influence to affect players' attitudes towards Millen and so undermine him if he, Carey, is shown the door. (His absence from the club on a daily basis wouldn't prevent him from doing that). Millen appears to have generated a pretty decent spirit among the players since he took over, and a good relationship between himself and them, in contrast to, say, the deteriorating mood in the dressing room that seemed to have developed immediately prior to GJ's departure. He won't want anything to derail that process. He may have a perfectly realistic idea of how secure his own standing is with the squad at this stage in his managerial career and he has also, I understand, recently completed a man-management course. If he thinks Carey, when crossed, is vindictive enough to put the boot in, Millen might, in the immortal phrase, prefer to have him inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in. (I'm not, by the way, saying this is my opinion of Carey, or that I think Millen is insecure: I'm merely trying to take your train of thought and run with it). In that scenario, it becomes a judgement call as to whether it's worth a year's wages to keep Carey onside, rather than run a perceived risk of having him stirring and being disruptive from the sidelines. Should Millen also think that, in addition, Carey's still got enough in the tank to offer something to the team, occasionally coming off the bench when they're struggling or in need of a bit of experience or leadership, then that's a bonus. It would be keeping a player at least in part for non-football reasons and because of dressing room politics, but I bet it wouldn't be the first time that's been done. If it were true, it could either be a totally wrong-headed thing to do, or a very shrewd move. I'm fully prepared to get mauling here for this bit of speculation, but since you put the idea in my head, I just thought it might be an interesting one to ponder... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
funky monkey Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 a years contract focused more on the side of coaching would be perfect for carey. Can still influence young players with out losing face and be a solid back up. Would rather hace him in the team than half our CB we already have. Stewart and nyatanga can both do one there both average and we should be looking to sell and and replace with better and quite possibly cheaper options Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 I don't see anyone saying he's an automatic choice? He will have to earn his place the same as everyone else, his experience and know how will help him though I'm sure. Providing KM secures the promised new defenders I wouldn't think the intention is to play him at all except in a crisis. Very occasional filler in at best then, with lack of on field contribution being compensated by having an experienced happy chappy with a motivational Bristol accent behind the scenes. Now he's staying let's hope that's the plan anyway - although some might see it as strangely profligate both in terms of wages and squad place - because if KM is planning this season's BCFC defence with LC potentially an integral part we are in serious trouble. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Somerset_Sam Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 'Louis Carey has lowest heart rate after sprint training for Bristol city. The boy is fit, good news for the robins.' Posted on twitter, seems he is in good shape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lack of Action Man Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 'Louis Carey has lowest heart rate after sprint training for Bristol city. The boy is fit, good news for the robins.' Posted on twitter, seems he is in good shape. Depends how fast Louis Carey's "sprint" is I jest of course. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 Providing KM secures the promised new defenders I wouldn't think the intention is to play him at all except in a crisis. Very occasional filler in at best then, with lack of on field contribution being compensated by having an experienced happy chappy with a motivational Bristol accent behind the scenes. Now he's staying let's hope that's the plan anyway - although some might see it as strangely profligate both in terms of wages and squad place - because if KM is planning this season's BCFC defence with LC potentially an integral part we are in serious trouble. Dear oh dear, he's 34 not 44! He's still got a lot to offer. I hope your willing to eat your words, just like you had to last season when halfway through the season you had us relegated! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 'Louis Carey has lowest heart rate after sprint training for Bristol city. The boy is fit, good news for the robins.' Posted on twitter, seems he is in good shape. Interesting that some on here say he's to old,to slow,and finished. Just shows how much they know:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ron Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 If I were KM reading this bile that he doesn't feel he can finish Carey's career; that doesn't get much more of a damning indictment to undermine someone's authority. I personally didn't see a game last season where I thought Carey was the worst of our back 4, he performed against some strong players and teams outside of his favoured position - he and Albert were superb as a pair at home to QPR, definitely. His distribution has got a lot better in recent years and he's a strong defender. People are very quick to pick him off for the end of the season, when he wasn't back to full fitness and we were clutching at straws to get a back-line together at most points. Where this urban myth which bears no logic that he'll be on a high salary, which I've seen banded about a fair bit, considering in his own words he's in the twilight of his days. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nogbad the Bad Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 I hope your willing to eat your words This discussion is about justification for a new contract so which words exactly do you expect me to eat? That Carey won't make enough appearances next season to justify this contract? KM intends to sign at least 2 defenders so, assuming actions follow his words, we'll see won't we. Although it sounds like he won't have to make many, or even ANY, appearances to satisfy you as apparently you think respect for his 600 past appearances is good enough reason on it's own. I see in your first post you are so enamoured with his form and fitness last season you believe he's still good for 2+ years - my opinion is you will be proved wildly wrong so hopefully you'll be willing to eat YOUR words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jordan Tansley Posted July 5, 2011 Report Share Posted July 5, 2011 If I were KM reading this bile that he doesn't feel he can finish Carey's career; that doesn't get much more of a damning indictment to undermine someone's authority. I personally didn't see a game last season where I thought Carey was the worst of our back 4, he performed against some strong players and teams outside of his favoured position - he and Albert were superb as a pair at home to QPR, definitely. His distribution has got a lot better in recent years and he's a strong defender. People are very quick to pick him off for the end of the season, when he wasn't back to full fitness and we were clutching at straws to get a back-line together at most points. Where this urban myth which bears no logic that he'll be on a high salary, which I've seen banded about a fair bit, considering in his own words he's in the twilight of his days. +1, Particularly the first sentence. Can't believe anyone could actually think that way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 This may very well be so, but on thinking about it, it occurs to me that it doesn't necessarily make retaining him such a bad decision, if you consider the wider picture. It's clearly implied in what you say that you think Carey is a power in the dressing room - and I would think you're probably right about that. It could also be seen as tending to imply that the manager might be wary of getting rid of him, because Carey could be minded to use his influence to affect players' attitudes towards Millen and so undermine him if he, Carey, is shown the door. (His absence from the club on a daily basis wouldn't prevent him from doing that). Millen appears to have generated a pretty decent spirit among the players since he took over, and a good relationship between himself and them, in contrast to, say, the deteriorating mood in the dressing room that seemed to have developed immediately prior to GJ's departure. He won't want anything to derail that process. He may have a perfectly realistic idea of how secure his own standing is with the squad at this stage in his managerial career and he has also, I understand, recently completed a man-management course. If he thinks Carey, when crossed, is vindictive enough to put the boot in, Millen might, in the immortal phrase, prefer to have him inside the tent pissing out than outside pissing in. (I'm not, by the way, saying this is my opinion of Carey, or that I think Millen is insecure: I'm merely trying to take your train of thought and run with it). In that scenario, it becomes a judgement call as to whether it's worth a year's wages to keep Carey onside, rather than run a perceived risk of having him stirring and being disruptive from the sidelines. Should Millen also think that, in addition, Carey's still got enough in the tank to offer something to the team, occasionally coming off the bench when they're struggling or in need of a bit of experience or leadership, then that's a bonus. It would be keeping a player at least in part for non-football reasons and because of dressing room politics, but I bet it wouldn't be the first time that's been done. If it were true, it could either be a totally wrong-headed thing to do, or a very shrewd move. I'm fully prepared to get mauling here for this bit of speculation, but since you put the idea in my head, I just thought it might be an interesting one to ponder... I would not want to overstate the cases but it would be surprising if a long standing player and captain did not wield power in the dressing room. Indeed if Louis' leadership qualities are what they are said to be then he should and must. It is not an attack on either him or Keith to suggest it might be difficult for an inexperienced manager to offload such a player. I certainly don't see why it is "bile" as it is called elsewhere in this thread to suggest such a thing could be a factor (I have no idea if it was, it was just a thought) in a manager's thinking. I'm sure it happens all the time; only Alex Ferguson would have the authority and guts to tell Roy Keane his time was up yet even he caved in to Rooney's demands and persuaded the Glazers to pay him the £250k a week he allegedly wanted. There are those who think John Terry is past it but it would take a lot of bottle for Villas Boas (who is a rookie in English management) to tell him his time is up given his status and influence in the club. I'm not suggesting Carey would behave in the way John Terry is known to have done to undermine managers since there is no evidence of that, just making the point that these things can influence a manager's thinking even at the highest level. In general terms (with some notable exceptions) managers do not wield the authority they once did I think, with more power resting with the players (who are often paid a lot more than their boss at the top end of the game). That was highlighted by for me by one of David James' Observer columns in which he explained how players go about getting managers sacked. It was depressing that at no point did he suggest that there was anything wrong with it but seemed it regard this player power as a fact of life, as indeed it is. Of course you are right to say it wouldn't be the first time a player has been kept on for non-football reasons, Scott Murray being another example, and everything people say about Louis' value regardless of whether he plays may be true and a key factor in Keith's decision. The spirit is indeed excellent it seems but bear in mind that that was the case for much of Johnson's reign and took us to the brink of the PL. Managers are always walking a tightrope in that respect and sometimes it is best not to rock the boat and to leave the more ruthless decisions until later; only the manager concerned (Keith in this case) can say ultimately but I don't think it is heresy to suggest it might be a factor. Even football managers are human. Personally I'm with Colin in that I agree it will be next year before Keith has his own squad and we may find at that point that he decides to bite the bullet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CliftonCliff Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 I would not want to overstate the cases but it would be surprising if a long standing player and captain did not wield power in the dressing room. Indeed if Louis' leadership qualities are what they are said to be then he should and must. It is not an attack on either him or Keith to suggest it might be difficult for an inexperienced manager to offload such a player. I certainly don't see why it is "bile" as it is called elsewhere in this thread to suggest such a thing could be a factor (I have no idea if it was, it was just a thought) in a manager's thinking. I'm sure it happens all the time; only Alex Ferguson would have the authority and guts to tell Roy Keane his time was up yet even he caved in to Rooney's demands and persuaded the Glazers to pay him the £250k a week he allegedly wanted. There are those who think John Terry is past it but it would take a lot of bottle for Villas Boas (who is a rookie in English management) to tell him his time is up given his status and influence in the club. I'm not suggesting Carey would behave in the way John Terry is known to have done to undermine managers since there is no evidence of that, just making the point that these things can influence a manager's thinking even at the highest level. In general terms (with some notable exceptions) managers do not wield the authority they once did I think, with more power resting with the players (who are often paid a lot more than their boss at the top end of the game). That was highlighted by for me by one of David James' Observer columns in which he explained how players go about getting managers sacked. It was depressing that at no point did he suggest that there was anything wrong with it but seemed it regard this player power as a fact of life, as indeed it is. Of course you are right to say it wouldn't be the first time a player has been kept on for non-football reasons, Scott Murray being another example, and everything people say about Louis' value regardless of whether he plays may be true and a key factor in Keith's decision. The spirit is indeed excellent it seems but bear in mind that that was the case for much of Johnson's reign and took us to the brink of the PL. Managers are always walking a tightrope in that respect and sometimes it is best not to rock the boat and to leave the more ruthless decisions until later; only the manager concerned (Keith in this case) can say ultimately but I don't think it is heresy to suggest it might be a factor. Even football managers are human. Personally I'm with Colin in that I agree it will be next year before Keith has his own squad and we may find at that point that he decides to bite the bullet. I hope I made it clear that I didn't see your post as an attack on either player or manager, which it obviously wasn't - and neither was mine. Accusations of 'bile' are over the top and miss the point, which you've made very eloquently above, and which is to do with, among other things, so-called 'player power'. (I have occasionally seen allegations here about Carey's supposedly subversive activities, but they weren't made by me, or you either, as far as I'm aware). In a sense I was saying something that was intended as complimentary to both parties; that is, that Millen may have made a wise judgement in keeping Carey, when all issues - both on and off-field - are taken into account, and that Carey may indeed have something to offer, at least for one more year. I also agree with your last remark, highlighted above. At the moment, the hope that KM would have his own squad this season don't look like becomming reality. Too many players from a previous era still under contract and too difficult to off-load, it seems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 This discussion is about justification for a new contract so which words exactly do you expect me to eat? That Carey won't make enough appearances next season to justify this contract KM intends to sign at least 2 defenders so, assuming actions follow his words, we'll see won't we. Although it sounds like he won't have to make many, or even ANY, appearances to satisfy you as apparently you think respect for his 600 past appearances is good enough reason on it's own. I see in your first post you are so enamoured with his form and fitness last season you believe he's still good for 2+ years - my opinion is you will be proved wildly wrong so hopefully you'll be willing to eat YOUR words. I'm more than confident that a player as fit as LC can play for 2 more years at this level. Find it strange that you can't. Or is it the rule that however good and fit you are you get written off at 35!. And yes, 600 + games does count for a lot, experience and know how are VERY important in the Championship. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Erm in what context is this? lowest heart rate after sprints and.. With or without a football What was his time in comparison to others? Does he need to hear ( sorry but he says he is deaf ish after his injury) What's he like in practice matches, positional sense and so on? Where does the statement you quoted say he isnt too old (for champs footy) or too slow? just playing devils advocate here I just understand why people are questioning why he's got a new contract. When he plays we are a better team IMO. If the Chairman, manager and coaching staff say he's good enough and fit enough that's fine by me. I rate him highly, he's got better with age IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Portland Bill Posted July 6, 2011 Report Share Posted July 6, 2011 Should read, "don't understand" but won't let me edit previous post!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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