Maybe Not As Bad As We Thought?

[chipdawg]

http://www.thisisbri...tail/story.html

I still don't think our defence is good enough, but this might explain why its been SO bad. I personally think zonal marking is stupid; as a former Pub League centre half, its so much easier to mark a man than a space and if you're rigidly stuck to one 'area' within the box is much harder to react to a situation as it unfolds

[BCFC_Dan]

But this just highlights the tactical inadequacy of English players and the English game. Zonal Marking works if the players understand it, but English players don't and English football culture is distrustful of anything involving thought or tactical cleverness. Hence the majority of teams playing a straightforward 4-4-2 with much the same tactics throughout the leagues.

[Monkeh]

http://www.thisisbri...tail/story.html

I still don't think our defence is good enough, but this might explain why its been SO bad. I personally think zonal marking is stupid; as a former Pub League centre half, its so much easier to mark a man than a space and if you're rigidly stuck to one 'area' within the box is much harder to react to a situation as it unfolds

So we've been experementing for the last 3 years?....thats why are defence is so shit

[GrahamC]

Maybe it is just me but there is always an underlying sniping tone to these articles (I bet I can guess who wrote it), in contrast to the apparently "desperately unlucky" Rovers of last season and ridiculous hype now they are winning pre season (hello, you're Fourth Division), in the ones I see.

Back on topic, it was worth trying, but better to abandon it pre season and learn from it than persevere and start as we did back last August.

The bottom line is we already have 5 centre backs on our books (Carey, Fontaine, Nyatanga, Stewart and Wilson) pre season is about getting a back four to gel, so we now have the Yeovil and West Brom games to pick our best pairing to do so.

[chipdawg]

But this just highlights the tactical inadequacy of English players and the English game. Zonal Marking works if the players understand it, but English players don't and English football culture is distrustful of anything involving thought or tactical cleverness. Hence the majority of teams playing a straightforward 4-4-2 with much the same tactics throughout the leagues.

While its irrefutable that Spanish, Italian, French, etc, players are as a rule individually more technically gifted than their English counterparts, i don't buy that their tactical approaches must also be better. How many English clubs have got to at least the semi-finals of major European domestic tournaments in recent years? Fair enough, the bulk of the players aren't actually English but they've come playing 'English' football. I think this is especially true with regards defending as i would think that the top European teams- Barcelona, Real, Milan, Inter, even the Spanish national side- major 'achilles heel is defending and even more so defending from set pieces

So we've been experementing for the last 3 years?....thats why are defence is so shit

I did qualify it by saying that i don't regard our defence as good enough, its just that by all accounts they've been extra sh1t against such footballing behemoths as Bath City and Cheltenham

[Monkeh]

I did qualify it by saying that i don't regard our defence as good enough, its just that by all accounts they've been extra sh1t against such footballing behemoths as Bath City and Cheltenham

I know chipper, I was using the lowest form of wit

[Robbored]

http://www.thisisbri...tail/story.html

I still don't think our defence is good enough, but this might explain why its been SO bad. I personally think zonal marking is stupid; as a former Pub League centre half, its so much easier to mark a man than a space and if you're rigidly stuck to one 'area' within the box is much harder to react to a situation as it unfolds

Defenders man marking is instilled in British players from a young age. They are coached to do it all through their development and when they get to professional standard anything different is simply too difficult to for them to grasp. Its a bit like the long ball defenders often hoof forward when they don't need to..

Its not a critism. The Italians are renown for their defending and they man mark, and do it brilliantly. So do the likes of John Terry and Rio Ferdinand.

I'm sure Millen looked at zonal defending because he got fed up with man marking but still conceded soft goals. What City's defence need is a leader and organiser.

[Monkeh]

Defenders man marking is instilled in British players from a young age. They are coached to do it all through their development and when they get to professional standard anything different is simply too difficult to for them to grasp. Its a bit like the long ball defenders often hoof forward when they don't need to..

Its not a critism. The Italians are renown for their defending and they man mark, and do it brilliantly. So do the likes of John Terry and Rio Ferdinand.

I'm sure Millen looked at zonal defending because he got fed up with man marking but still conceded soft goals. What City's defence need is a leader and organiser.

we got a good one in louis carey but it appears his legs are going, James as well but its really down to the player to stop making these stupid mastakes that they are making over and over again, no amount of experance can sort that out,

Titus Bramble is a pirme example, fantastic defender on his day but he keeps making the same basic errors throughtout his career which stopped him from ever taking that next step,

Our defence seem to be unable to pick up runners, the basic awareness seems to have left them all completely

[BCFC_Dan]

While its irrefutable that Spanish, Italian, French, etc, players are as a rule individually more technically gifted than their English counterparts, i don't buy that their tactical approaches must also be better. How many English clubs have got to at least the semi-finals of major European domestic tournaments in recent years? Fair enough, the bulk of the players aren't actually English but they've come playing 'English' football. I think this is especially true with regards defending as i would think that the top European teams- Barcelona, Real, Milan, Inter, even the Spanish national side- major 'achilles heel is defending and even more so defending from set pieces

The ones that have done well are by and large the ones who've modified their tactical approach to suit.

Manchester Utd might play an attacking and occasionally direct style, but tactically they've come a long way from the traditional English style they used to play (and which was exposed as inadequate in their Champions' League matches).

Chelsea haven't played a rigid 4-4-2 since Mourinho took over, and their performances in Europe have improved markedly (OK, they have better players too but some of it is tactical).

Arsenal have been playing a continental style for years.

Liverpool's period of being decent in Europe was largely under Spanish coach Benitez, who was known (and unfairly ridiculed) for his use of zonal marking.

English football is still largely opposed to thought and treats tactics with suspicion. Tactical analysis in newspapers is relegated to a tiny box feature, if it's included at all, and whilst the analysis on TV is improving it still tends to focus on the performance of individuals rather than the team dynamic.

As long as people keep believing things like "zonal marking is too complicated" English football will struggle, especially at international level. There has to be a cultural change towards accepting the importance of intelligence and tactics in the game.

Only one-season-wonders Spurs have played anything approaching the traditional English game in Europe and, though successful, I don't believe they'd be able to sustain it. They got where they did through momentum and surprise and even had they qualified I doubt they could repeat the feat so well next year.

[chipdawg]

The ones that have done well are by and large the ones who've modified their tactical approach to suit.

Manchester Utd might play an attacking and occasionally direct style, but tactically they've come a long way from the traditional English style they used to play (and which was exposed as inadequate in their Champions' League matches).

Chelsea haven't played a rigid 4-4-2 since Mourinho took over, and their performances in Europe have improved markedly (OK, they have better players too but some of it is tactical).

Arsenal have been playing a continental style for years.

Liverpool's period of being decent in Europe was largely under Spanish coach Benitez, who was known (and unfairly ridiculed) for his use of zonal marking.

English football is still largely opposed to thought and treats tactics with suspicion. Tactical analysis in newspapers is relegated to a tiny box feature, if it's included at all, and whilst the analysis on TV is improving it still tends to focus on the performance of individuals rather than the team dynamic.

As long as people keep believing things like "zonal marking is too complicated" English football will struggle, especially at international level. There has to be a cultural change towards accepting the importance of intelligence and tactics in the game.

Only one-season-wonders Spurs have played anything approaching the traditional English game in Europe and, though successful, I don't believe they'd be able to sustain it. They got where they did through momentum and surprise and even had they qualified I doubt they could repeat the feat so well next year.

I agree that the old-style 4-4-2 is dead at highest level, but its still a functional and highly useful formation at this level. I also agree that teams like ManUre have come a long way in recent times in European competition. However, there are a few points i'd like to take up;

Chelsea may play in a 4-3-3, but it is incredibly direct and with Mourinho being a self-confessed student of the game, its really as English as fish and chips

Arsenal play very pretty 'European-style' football, but where has it got them? They haven't won a trophy in 6 seasons and have one semi-final to show for 12 years or so have top-level European club competition

Liverpool really defied convention under Benitez, but he was renowned in Spain as a 'Cup specialist' and seems to favour the knockout competitions. Most of Liverpool's success was down to Gerrard hauling them through on his own that any kind of tactical genius from Rafa

The fact of the matter is that English clubs have dominated European competition over the last 5 years or so and thats despite having players that man-for-man are not as good as those in the Spanish, Italian or even German teams. Fulham are the best example. A limited team, playing a direct style based on a solid defence. I bet they didn't use a zonal defence...

I totally agree that we need to be coaching different skill sets and attitudes into players from an early age and why we haven't copied the Dutch or Spanish method of dealing with youngsters many years agho, i'll never know. However, the one thing we excel at is the art of defending a penalty box and we've done that without the need for zonal marking; something which is only periodically and not particularly sucessfully used by English teams. Do i want players in the Bristol City side with a Barcelona-esque ability to spot a pass? Hell yeah. Do i want players in the Bristol City team with a Barcelona-esque attitude to defending a corner? Not especially...

[Robbored]

we got a good one in louis carey but it appears his legs are going,

Carey has never been a natural leader. He's good at finger pointing but not at organising other defenders or leading by example.

The best we've had for years was Sean Taylor despite the fact that he wasn't that accomplished a player himself. When he played all the team followed his example. He was a superb leader on the pitch. City have not had anyone as good in that role since he retired.

[WhistleHappy]

....problem is I doubt if the experiment was done or thought about for puerly experimental or out of curiosity .... the fact it didnt work is disappointing because while reverting back to traditional defending is the right thing to do right now, just the fact that we experimented at all wasnt ,I believe, out of curiosity it was because of fundimental problems getting our defence to be effective in the first place. So back to square one then...

Bottom line is - We still need new defensive players! ... nothings changed. Until that happens the inadaquacies (oops sp) remain. At present time man to man is best option but is no more than the lesser of two evils.

[Monkeh]

Carey has never been a natural leader. He's good at finger pointing but not at organising other defenders or leading by example.

The best we've had for years was Sean Taylor despite the fact that he wasn't that accomplished a player himself. When he played all the team followed his example. He was a superb leader on the pitch. City have not had anyone as good in that role since he retired.

Taylor was the reason we got relegated last time, if he was fit we'd of stay up,

Carey may not be a natural leader but he's the best one we have at the club, we are alot more organized with him in the side then with out him,

Much better then Skuse,

I like Elliot as captain tho' he'd make a great captain imo

[Dastardly and Muttley]

Kilkenny will be our leader on the pitch next season - he's like a Tommy Doherty with much more talent.

We still need someone to lead the defence, I wonder if Elliot and Killa could be our midfield partnership, with Cisse and Fonts in defence?

[crusader]

all english pro clubs coach zone defending

man marking is what happens in basketball - outside the key

when do you see Jamie McAllister following a player if he drifts across the other side of penalty are - you dont!

the beauty of opinions - and some strange ones too!

[Robbored]

man marking is what happens in basketball - outside the key

when do you see Jamie McAllister following a player if he drifts across the other side of penalty are - you dont!

the beauty of opinions - and some strange ones too!

Apologies, I was talking about set plays not open play.

Many (30 odd) years ago when playing I remember very well getting a bollocking more than once for not blocking the run or failing to stop my opposite number at corners and free-kicks. Problem I had was that at only 5'9'' most of the opposition were taller than me. That was my excuse anyway.

[Sir Colby-Tit]

The best we've had for years was Sean Taylor despite the fact that he wasn't that accomplished a player himself. When he played all the team followed his example. He was a superb leader on the pitch. City have not had anyone as good in that role since he retired.

Couldn't agree more. and he stuck his bonce in anywhere. Legend.

Oooh Sean Taylor!